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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all,
here with an important question. I am thinking of taking either parnate or nardil but want to know just why it works.

This article is one of several that find a link between REDUCED MAO activity and low social status (a possible cause of Social Phobia):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12450967

Whereas this article says that higher levels of MAO are a measure of dominance and sociability:
http://books.google.com/books?id=lB...en#v=onepage&q=mao platelet dominance&f=false

I was wondering if there is a spectrum of MAO activity, and Social Phobics just have really high levels of MAO or what?

Finally, is Nardil really the best drug for social phobia??
 

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I think it's because Nardil boosts GABA, serotonin and dopamine, but also "trace amines" including octopamine which opposes [nor]adrenaline and probably helps reduce anxiety & physical symptoms. Other trace amines include tryptamine and PEA. Nardil seems one of the best "all in one" meds to target exactly the right neurotransmitters for SA; it gets the balance just right for us. There are very few other ways to target dopamine without increasing [nor]adrenaline and hence anxiety, at least by prescription (e.g. stimulants). Realistically you would have to be on quite an extensive combination therapy to get the same effects as Nardil.

Yeah, if SSRI + mirtazapine doesn't work for me, I'll probably beg for Nardil (which I have taken before without problems and LOVED it, though it's hard to obtain). Even if you encounter side-effects, you tend to do so with a smile ;).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Because Nardil is the med that increases most neurotransmitters in the brain and therefore the most side effects (and good effects). I do think it is very sloppy way to target SA but we don't much other choices (Legally) :(. I think Nardil is better because it also increases GABA and Parnate not.
You are probably right, the placebo effect works best when you actually feel different, and maois must make you feel way different.

Does anyone know if upregulation/desensitization or downregulation become an issue for MAOIs? I don't like the idea of it pooping out. Maybe an antipsychotic at night to counteract downregulation of DA receptors?
 

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^ Tolerance / "poop out" is an issue with most meds, including Nardil. You could try supplementing magnesium to guard against this, at a safe dose of course.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
^ Tolerance / "poop out" is an issue with most meds, including Nardil. You could try supplementing magnesium to guard against this, at a safe dose of course.
simple magnesium supplementation solves tolerance? How so?
 

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nardil and parnate are, IMO too dangerous and should be a last resorrt only after many other antidepressants have been tried and failed
 

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simple magnesium supplementation solves tolerance? How so?
I think it's something to do with magnesium's oppositional role to calcium, and NMDA receptors. Not really sure, but there's enough evidence to say magnesium works for tolerance, as do pharmaceutical NMDA receptor antagonists like ketamine. The jury's still out on whether tolerance builds to these agents themselves, safety of long-term usage, dose range, etc.

I used varying amounts of magnesium for a long time, usually about a gram a day, and after a while developed seizures along with probable hypothyroidism & hypocalcemia. A lot of things should be considered before deliberately altering electrolyte balance, take it from this hypocrite. Lower doses shouldn't be much to worry about though -- too many people are magnesium-deficient and/or calcium-overloaded. I plan to supplement about 400mg elemental magnesium a day when I start again, though will first consult with my doctor(s).
 

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what kind of side effects from nardil??i know its harmful to your liver but what other bad effects are there??

does nardil make you pro-social though or does it just eliminate SA??i need something pro-social...
 

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Nardil was moderately pro-social for me, definitely more than purely serotonergic meds like SSRIs. Not as much as stimulants like Ritalin though.

Side effects? Sexual dysfunction was pretty bad, and I got some orthostatic hypotension & tiredness.
 

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nardil and parnate are, IMO too dangerous and should be a last resorrt only after many other antidepressants have been tried and failed
Of course they should not be used as first line treatment, but regarding the dangers:

An approximation of the risk to benefit ratio of NSAIDs compared with MAOIs will place things in perspective. This is especially topical and pertinent in view of the recently recognised association between SSRIs and GI bleeding. NSAIDs are mostly used for arthritis which rarely has a fatal outcome. In major depression there is a 10-15% life-time risk of suicide as well as a greatly increased standardised mortality ratio (SMR). Consider the number of deaths from GI bleeds associated with NSAIDs (the figure is 1,200 deaths every year in the United Kingdom (2), not to mention cases of Stevens-Johnson syndrome/toxic epidermal necrolysis (3). Most doctors will have seen quite a few cases. Compare that to the rarity of cerebral bleeds from MAOIs. Most doctors will never ever see, or even hear of, a single case in their entire career. Deaths from MAOI induced hypertension are very rare. It is hard to find many reported in the last 50 years. A search of the whole Pubmed data base returns 67 hits for the keywords 'fatal' + 'monoamine oxidase inhibitor'. Many of these relate to serotonin toxicity, older reports to hepatic toxicity, but not one single report of intra-cranial bleeding. Another possible perspective is to note that fatal cerebral bleeds are documented as a result of the increase in arterial blood pressure secondary to weight lifting (4), which can elevate BP to 480 mm Hg. So, although exact figures for cerebral bleeds are imprecise this comparison puts the matter into perspective. It is abundantly clear that to regard MAOIs as dangerous is not just an over-reaction but also an egregious example of the unscientific and ill informed opinions not uncommon in the psychiatric fraternity.
http://www.psychotropical.com/maois_full.shtml

Nardil is so great vs. anxiety because it not only acts as a MAOI, but also as a GABA transaminase inhibitor therefor raising brain GABA levels. This might also be the reason it has in general more side effects than Parnate (weight gain, sedation...)
 

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Hey all,
here with an important question. I am thinking of taking either parnate or nardil but want to know just why it works.

This article is one of several that find a link between REDUCED MAO activity and low social status (a possible cause of Social Phobia):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12450967

Whereas this article says that higher levels of MAO are a measure of dominance and sociability:
http://books.google.com/books?id=lB...en#v=onepage&q=mao platelet dominance&f=false

I was wondering if there is a spectrum of MAO activity, and Social Phobics just have really high levels of MAO or what?

Finally, is Nardil really the best drug for social phobia??
No. There is not one specific scientifically defined reason for social phobia and therefore there is not one scientifically determined best med therapy. Nardil also has a crap load of side effects for most users which render the whole therapeutic effects moot for many people.

However I wouldn't be surprised and would support the theory, based on my limited knowledge, that low 'MAO activity' did play some role in social phobia though.

I also think you meant to say: "and Social Phobics just have really [LOW] levels of MAO or what?"
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
No. There is not one specific scientifically defined reason for social phobia and therefore there is not one scientifically determined best med therapy. Nardil also has a crap load of side effects for most users which render the whole therapeutic effects moot for many people.

However I wouldn't be surprised and would support the theory, based on my limited knowledge, that low 'MAO activity' did play some role in social phobia though.

I also think you meant to say: "and Social Phobics just have really [LOW] levels of MAO or what?"
My thinking is that since Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors INHIBIT MAO activity and also help social phobia, depression, and anxiety that MAO activity must be higher than normal people without phobias or depression.

However, some studies support lower MAO activity in social phobics. The studies really are all over the place.
Dopamine D2 receptors being underactive in SA and higher than normal norepinephrine levels may be the problems MAOIs fix. But lower social status may be a consequence, unless Social Phobics are tweaked to such super-dominance that socializing becomes difficult/awkward which actually makes a lot of sense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

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When monoamine oxidase levels are lower during early development it paradoxically ****s things up, hence the discrepancy. Provided you're older than a fetus, lowering monoamine oxidase levels will be nothing but antidepressant and anxiolytic.

As for what Nardil does, as some here have already mentioned, it inhibits two enzymes: 1) monoamine oxidase (MAO) -> 80-90%; 2) GABA transaminase (GABA-T) -> 30-40%. This results in a lower rate of breakdown of the neurotransmitters serotonin, melatonin, dopamine, norepinephrine (noradrenaline), epinephrine (adrenaline), trace amines like phenethylamine, tyramine, octopamine, and tryptamine, and GABA. Specifically, elevation of serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, and epinephrine is antidepressant, and the former two anxiolytic, and elevation of GABA is anxiolytic as well. Paradoxically, however, Nardil actually decreases norepinephrine and epinephrine levels through a complicated (I won't bother explaining it) interaction with octopamine, resulting in a lower though still significant therapeutic response, and side effects like orthostatic hypotension.

The combination of targeting several major systems involved in mood and anxiety in a positive manner is what makes Nardil the [in my opinion as well as that of many others] most powerful prescription anxiolytic available. Unfortunately, having such a nonselective action also results in ruthless side effects, and I myself couldn't tolerate them despite the literally incredible anxiety relief; hence, I quit and I'm never taking another MAOI again.
We have a winner for copying off wikipedia!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
rocknroll714,

what side effects did you experience???
 
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