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SAS Master
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was watching Oprah last night (haha). She had doctor Oz on the show and it was about longevity. One of the main things she said to do for long-term health is to meditate, even five minutes a day and "it will change your life exponentially".

First of all, what counts as meditation? Doctor Oz said that prayer could count as meditation. Praying as I know it, as an agnostic-catholic, is not something that I would consider meditation. I pray by talking to God, which is very similar to talking to myself. That isn't something that is very deep, or life altering, it is just basically me explaining in my mind to someone who may or may not be there what my hopes are for the future, what I'm sorry for, etc. Something that I feel comes closer to feeling like meditation is when I play my electronic drum set. When I'm alone, sometimes I turn on the rock radio station and play along very intensely and get very rapped up in it and get light headed and maybe even hyperventilate (in a way that feels good).

Secondly, I've always thought meditation sounded appealing, but I'm not sure if my attraction is just to it as an aesthetic, because I have never spent much time actually trying to learn to meditate. But another question I have is that I once read that meditation can bring on bodily effects that are similar to being on drugs. There may be a sense of euphoria, or maybe even images played out. But then, there is a warning to practitioners that this is not the level of enlightenment, the meditator should meditate PAST this point and should not be fooled into being content with experiencing wonderful sensations like this. But THATS the kind of meditation I want to experience. THATS the kind that's appealing and that you see in movies and comic books.

Does anyone here have experience with meditation in ways that are more intense, with body highs, or visuals? Or is that type of meditation myth and is it purely for relaxation?
 

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Ugh well this is all really scattered and I got on some really huge rants off topic but there's some good info here, any questions please feel free to ask, most of these are only half answers and explained very vaguely due to time and such, also this is all just imho based on my own personal experiences and things that I've learned from others who are a lot more enlightened than me, anyways eventually I'm going to gather all the stuff I've written about this and get it all nice and organized

Hi good post.

I highly recommend this post concerning various meditations and also how to do them and where you can go to find out more about them.

Meditation info:
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f43/anyone-try-meditation-66291/#post980461

Anyways there are lots of different meditations, I think prayer can certainly be a sort of meditation. I just did a quick experiment where I prayed like I used to when I was a kid and I felt presence and in the now while doing it. I think the aspect of opening up to god is pretty much the same as opening up to

Effects of various meditations in my experience:
-Relaxation
-Quieting of the mind
-Relief from anxiety and depression
-Very light feeling
-Feeling of presence and heightened awareness
-Pleasurable body sensations like tingling on back and stuff
-Disidentification from the mind and thoughts
-Heightened concentration
-Awesome vivid dreams
-Sense of peace
-Extremely slow breath
-Insights into the mind and reality and who you really are
-Various mental 'tricks' and shortcuts and stuff
-Feeling of cleansing and purification and elation

All of these vary considerably in intensity depending on how successful the meditation is and which meditation you are doing. Anyways I had a life exchanging experience and most remarkable experience of my life while meditating.

Also I've had a couple really powerful experiences meditating where I released lots of bad energy and felt amazing afterwards and had incredibly pleasurable body sensations and feelings of intense euphoria. Huge elation that effected me for probably half a year afterwards. I've done pretty much every drug save for heroin and this was much much better than all of them. Anyways before I got to the really nice state I had to go through a really scary one. But if there is one defining moment of my life it would be this.
I wrote about this in detail the above post I linked to.

http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/f43/anyone-try-meditation-66291/#post980461

I tend to need 15-20 minutes before i reach a state of 'presence' with very little resistance and very peaceful feeling if I am going from a state of complete baseline. The longer you do it the more effective and the greater state of presence you can achieve. If I am going from an already relaxed state or if I have meditated earlier I can be present and 'in the zone' pretty much instantly. If I am going from an agitated state sometimes it takes a while (used to take me an hour or so but I used to use 'manipulative meditations' now it takes me less sometimes very short amount of time, I find Adyashanti type meditations to be most effective in dealing with negative emotional states) Also sometimes it just is really hard to meditate. Usually though you can find one that works. If all else fails mindfulness of breath lol

Alright as far as can you expect pleasurable body sensations and such and positive mental effects. Yeah you sure can. Aside from the very intense experience that I had, and another which 'almost' happened, usually when I meditate I get very nice mental effects and to a lesser degree physical ones. I would compare a good meditation to the effects of a benzo in some ways such as relaxation and anxiety. Much more alert than benzo's mentally. I don't know if you have done opiates but I get some physical sensations like that. Pleasurable body sensations especially in back area (tingles / energy). Anyways generally when I meditate and am having a good meditation I feel very content, very calm, very peaceful is it worth it? Yes it is. Especially considering that you can bring the state of presence into your everyday life. Its not limited just to meditation. Also a lot of times you will just seem to naturally become present on your own without effort. (It is after all our natural state, just the mind comes up and hides it)

All things are impermanent, mental states come and go. The reason why meditators warn not to get attached to any very euphoric states is because attachment leads to problems: The mind is constantly trying to grasp on to things and constantly trying to run away from things, you really aren't content and at peace when the mind is trying to run away from a certain mental state and trying to 'grasp' onto that old euphoric one, this causes resistance to the now. You can not appreciate the now when your mind is doing this, you can not be at peace if you're mind is trying to run away or grasp on to any pleasurable states. The pleasurable ones and the painful ones. I used to be a huge 'grasper' and huge 'averter' I'll try and demonstrate the psychology of how some of my old meditations used to go:

1) Me: I'm in a great mental state I love this, If only I could keep this forever
(attaching)

2) Me: Ut oh what just happened I feel like something is subtley wrong what did I do? I no longer feel completely at peace, seems like I accidentally did something, hmm what have I done (now your mind has created a problem)

3) Me: I need to try and level myself back up to feeling great again, maybe if I 'try' really hard (now your mind is trying to run away from this mental state, aversion)

4) Me: (Agitated) Crap this isn't working, I'm bad at meditation (here comes the beliefs, please read below concerning how destructive they are)

5) Me: (Very Agitated) I need to get out of this bad state, I hate this, I can't get out of it, I feel like I'm gonna have a panic attack, I need to put my attention back on my breath, why won't it stay on the breath, this isn't working, I just keep getting worse and worse, I must try harder, I'm thinking so much, I need to stop thinking, wait I'm thinking just now, let me put my attention back on my breath *thought loops* (strong mental resistance, aversion etc)

Ha this sort of thing used to constantly happen to me. Now lets examine what happened.

First everything is fine, you are enjoying your meditation and you are grasping on to it, the problem with grasping is that all things are impermanent. All things pass, all cycles come and go. Its impossible for things to stay the way they are forever. The universe does not allow it. When you grasp onto something and all the sudden the conditions change then your mind has created a problem because it is no longer in that state. Now when your mind creates a problem then you can not rest until that problem is solved. You can not stay present and in the now if you are trying to reach another state. Your mind believes this new state to be unsatisfactory. You lose touch with the now and your mind takes control of you as it fruitlessly searches to fix a problem which it has created. That problem being that 'this current state is unsatisfactory'

Notice how your mind is always trying to manipulate its way out of what you are experiencing, or projecting into the past or future, it can never just allow things to be, this is what the mind does, its what it has evolved to do, its a nice and very useful survival tool, it is good at solving problems and even creating new ones to solve) It is as it is. The real problem for the mind's sake is that there really IS no problem. There is nothing wrong with the present moment. It is only the minds resistance to the moment which causes problems for itself. Its creating problems, its trying to solve problems, its trying to escape, it grasps on to things, its creating negative beliefs. Its just the minds nature. Notice how the mind is always 'trying' to do something. It is always trying to get somewhere that it is not. Always avoiding the now.

When you are in a bad mental state don't make it your 'goal' to get out of it. Your mind can't solve the problem by thinking its way out of it, it can only create further problems. Its the mind itself that is the problem and the minds resistance or belief which created the problem in the first place. Just allow it to be completely. The key isn't to control your mind imho, your mind is just a bundle of highly conditioned thought patterns and emotional reflexes better to just learn to step away from it. Its not really about stopping thought more about just distancing yourself from it and finding your identity else where. There will still be thoughts, just they will no longer have nearly the power over you that they used to. How do you step away from your mind? First step is to disidentify with the mind. No longer believe that your mind is you. This is accomplished by dwelling in awareness (the now), surrendering to what is, (when you are completely surrendered there are no problems, no problems no mind activity), watching your mind, and spiritual inquiry (questions devoted to 'who' you are and 'what' you are, you are not your ego, you are not your mind, you are the awareness which all things in your experience arises and recedes back into) This last bit is a whole other topic though lol. Anyways your mind starts to quiet down drastically. Also thoughts become a lot less powerful and are much less likely to take you into a trance. Also your thoughts are no longer taken as seriously etc.

(Even more though this stuff is more off topic and is more some tips for meditation)
 

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My views on successfully meditating: Don't create any goals for meditation at all! Don't come into meditation with any preconceived notions of what is going to happen. Or you will create all sorts of mental activity, more grasping, more aversion, more questions, your mind will constantly try to escape the now. Constantly try to find problems with your meditation, with what is happening, with your mental state. Just watch these thoughts. Watch them appear in awareness, watch them recede back into it. See them for what they are. Just conditioned thought patterns with emotional triggers and energy fields attached to them. Be aware of the 'watcher' who is aware of the thoughts. Guess who that is? Once you step outside of your mind and become the watcher of the mind, you are not your mind. You are the awareness. Watch how thoughts have considerable less power over you. Learn to dwell in this awareness. (Being present) Let your attention drift wherever it may. If a negative feeling comes up don't try and push it away. More than likely your awareness will be drawn to this negative feeling anyway. Good thats fine. Let yourself feel that emotion totally and completely. It wants to be acknowledged it is there for a reason. Let it take its natural path instead of trying to push it back or suppressing it. See what happens :-D If it is a positive feeling don't try and amplify it, don't try and cling on to it, don't try and grasp it etc. Just allow it to be as well. Be gentle and patient with yourself! Make the space for things to go wrong, for progress to not be made, for hangups, for negative experiences while meditating. Also don't be afraid to make mistakes! Don't be afraid to learn and try new things. Also find your motivation. What do you want most? What drives you to meditate?

The secret to meditation is to 'allow everything to be as it is.' Make no mental resistance to anything that comes up. Feeling anxious? Allow yourself to feel anxious completely. Don't try and manipulate your way out of it. Instead go into the anxiety. Surrender to it completely. Don't try and avoid it. Acknowledge it completely. Welcome it even. Make it a friend and not an enemy. Let it do what its gonna do and instead of trying to ignore it or push it away watch it. Don't try and stop thought, watch it instead, don't try and control your mind, step out of it completely, find your true identity, you are not your mind. Your mind only has power over you if you believe your mind to be you. I find the phrase "It is as it is" to be a very powerful phrase that works quite well when the mind is resisting or creating problems. Works in me anyways. Now you could do a manipulative meditation. A meditation where you focus on breath or a mantra or whatever. While I like these and find them useful as portals into other more natural meditations I think they themselves are unnatural.

Now you are probably thinking. 'What? The key to meditation is to 'allow everything to be as it is' How will that ever change anything? Well I'm tired as hell right now and will go into this tomorrow lol :b

Also just a side note on beliefs that I wrote earlier on while writing this...


Beliefs:

It is truly amazing what power a belief can have on you, they are extremely limiting to the mind, a belief if like a lock box which limits you to the conditions of that belief. Feel what a belief is like in your head. It is an instantaneous knowing sensation, no conflicting thought arises, possibilities are locked out (of course they are because if your mind thinks it 'knows' that something is true why humor the alternatives?) The destructive and limiting capability of beliefs really became apparent to me when I was experimenting with marijuana and hallucinogenic drugs and had a bad trip. It was really interesting (not too mention completely terrifying and destructive) at watching how one negative belief can just completely annihilate whole matrixes of thought patterns. They become locked off once they no longer have power, they are no longer energized with the power of possibility. If the mind thinks that something is improbable or impossible because of a negative belief than these 'accessor' thoughts (accessors to better states and more positive beliefs) and the thoughts that drift outside of the limits of this belief will no longer arise spontaneously in you (well sometimes they will but they will always carry that belief with them and there isn't any thought referencing it, just a 'knowing' sensation which regards the thought as useless because 'you are not good enough' or whatever. The reasons won't even come up, if you were to sit back on it and try to figure out what the actual belief was which has limited the thought sometimes you won't even remember it but the negative energy field and the 'feeling' remains, neither will accessor thoughts have any power if you try and manually use them to manipulate your way out of a certain experience, that new negative belief of yours have made them null and void, they no longer have any charge, they feel empty because you already 'know' subconsciously that which they apply to and are in reference of no longer is true. The mind has shut off the possibility with that one belief. One belief and you can literally eliminate huge sections of thought from occurring, because they no longer come about because the negative belief destroyed all those possibilities.

If you believe you are hopeless with women and will be forever so why bother trying then you will be limited by that belief. You won't even notice it but huge limitations have been put on to your subconscious and the new thoughts that arise and have power will be limited to this belief, the old thoughts dealing with something like a relationship to a girl will not arise spontaneously because they are outside of the parameters of that belief (Or if it does arise it will arise with that negative 'knowing' sensation brought about by the negative belief earlier, its energy field if you will. If you do think about it manually then If you believe in meditation that you have to reach a good state or else the meditation is problematic then there will be resistance when the meditation is not in a good state. You can get stuck in strange mind games trying to 'level' yourself up using 'accessor' thoughts which act like keys to doors of higher states (meaning more confident, more happy, more peaceful etc) Unfortunately you will still be limited by your mind no matter how far you 'level' up. Also all of those level ups carry the key to a level down within them. Its just how the mind works. Eventually you stop finding the keys to level up and down down you go. You are only exploring the mind though these games though, only exploring states which are themselves limited by mind and all of its eccentricities of its nature. What we are trying to do though is step outside the minds limitations entirely. So forget about these games. No longer a prisoner of the mind. Oh and its possible that you would have had to have a bad hallucinogenic drug trip to understand what I'm talking about here lol.
 

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SAS Master
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for your detailed response. Actually, hallucinogenic drugs are what I base what I hope meditation would be. Without meditation, I have a knack for having very detailed dreams and remembering them. One thing that is kind of related, is sometimes I have lucid dreams, so I know I am dreaming, and I'm running. In these dreams it always entertains me that I get tired, just like I would in real life. I start breathing heavy, my hearts pounding, but its a dream! I'm not actually running, I know I'm dreaming, so why would I get these "real" effects even when I tell myself it's a dream and I could run forever. That is kind of like the beliefs your were talking about. The mind believes it's not possible to run without getting tired. Maybe this is like a survival mechanism, though. Because if I could shut off pain in a dream, maybe I could in real life, and that would be bad, if I ran to the point of having a heart attack.
 

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SAS Master
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