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Hi! I just wanted to respond to all the what seems like zillions of posts about this subject. What I and all of my friends always talk about is how we wish guys would express their interest by simply being nice, and act interested in getting to know us as friends first. Like: interested in "us" for ourselves. In return, we want to know guys as "people" before we even consider thinking about them sexually. If a guy projects anything sexual when approaching us, (aside from just casual attraction that would make him approach us in the first place) we are immediately turned off. And no, for us it's truly not just about looks, power, strength, etc. It's just about really getting to "know" someone before getting so serious. And we can tell if it's faking interest for just sex. Like "wink wink" would be a turn off. But catching my eye and smiling would be great. Then if I looked back and smiled back, you could come over and say "hi, I'm Joe Doe" and put your hand out to shake it in introduction, and start some silly small talk. If I don't look back, I'm either not interested or shy. If I'm shy, I might look at you a little later to see if you are looking at me. If so, you might come over and do the introduction thing. Otherwise I would just go on and assume you really weren't interested. Asking someone to dance is also an awesome and direct way to approach without having to do the catch the eye thing. Then we could chat casually on the dance floor to get to know each other. Or "hi, I noticed you from across the room, and I'd love to buy you a drink". But just chit-chat, don't spill your guts about all your insecurities until you have slowly gotten to know someone, or they start spilling their guts first and you have the same feelings about things. Just be a person wanting to get to know another person. We don't like having guys assume sex too fast any more than guys like us assuming marriage too fast. How would a guy like it if a girl came up to him and immediately projected she wanted to get married? Maybe the same thing a lot of girls feel when men project sex immediately. Obviously we might want those things at some point, but relationships take time. I actually prefer somewhat shy guys, because guys who are too cocky scare me. Pushy is scary. Genuine, but casual interest is comfortable. Sounds like hard work, but girls have to work hard to in order to project interest back. I don't look at it as so much of a game as I see it as finding ways to really get to know somebody in a genuine way without projecting "strings attached". If both people think there are strings attached to everything they do, then somebody's feelings are gonna get hurt.
 

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Hmm. I've been in quite a few situations where I've approached a girl I liked using the sort of procedure you suggested, only to have been left standing around like a buffoon. Also, a couple of times I've tried to respectfully "take things further" with female friends, only to be told "I only like you as a friend".

I'm not an ugly or antisocial man (okay, maybe I'm A LITTLE antisocial), but, in most of these scenarios, I've been turned down in favor of swaggering, slimy *******s who seem to spend half their time making dick jokes.

I truly believe a lot of men view the situation as a vicious circle; something like "you've got to behave like a arrogant jackass, because girls like arrogant jackasses". And I think there's some element of truth in that. Obviously, I'm not just blaming women for perpetuating this vicious circle (the heart wants what the heart wants, after all). I just think that there are flaws in the 'women just want men who treat them with respect' theory.
 

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Hmm. I've been in quite a few situations where I've approached a girl I liked using the sort of procedure you suggested, only to have been left standing around like a buffoon. Also, a couple of times I've tried to respectfully "take things further" with female friends, only to be told "I only like you as a friend".

I'm not an ugly or antisocial man (okay, maybe I'm A LITTLE antisocial), but, in most of these scenarios, I've been turned down in favor of swaggering, slimy *******s who seem to spend half their time making dick jokes.

I truly believe a lot of men view the situation as a vicious circle; something like "you've got to behave like a arrogant jackass, because girls like arrogant jackasses". And I think there's some element of truth in that. Obviously, I'm not just blaming women for perpetuating this vicious circle (the heart wants what the heart wants, after all). I just think that there are flaws in the 'women just want men who treat them with respect' theory.
I completely agree with this. And I've had the same experience. I've tried to get to know girls, asked if they liked me: "I only thought of you as a friend" :rain. If only all women thought this way (in the op), unfortunately I think most women think the opposite :roll. They're attracted to how smooth they are and how they know how to flirt with girls, then complain when they find out the guy's a douche. Why not give the nice quiet guy a chance?
 

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The type of guys women want emotionally is generally very different to the guys they want sexually. Most of the time, I don't even think girls know what they want.

They want the nice romantic guys to talk too and be comfortable with but they also want the fast passionate naughty sex from bad boys. You can't have both ladies, You can have something in between that's average in both areas but that's about it.

Men have the same problem, wanting the intelligent girl next door and the wild stripper. We can't have both either
 

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Hi! I just wanted to respond to all the what seems like zillions of posts about this subject. What I and all of my friends always talk about is how we wish guys would express their interest by simply being nice, and act interested in getting to know us as friends first.
Sorry but I stopped reading there. I thought you would talk about your fantasies in bed... :D

Listen to Dead Leaves, he speaks wisely : there's a difference between being a gentleman and acting like a friend.

Once guys know that, then you won't have to pretend to be a friend first, because obviously that's not what you want.

A man should assume his sexuality and attraction towards the opposite sex. He should make it clear (but with subtlety), that he is a potential intimate partner, and not try to be a friend because that will lead you nowhere, believe me when I say that.

You can ask every girl I dated in the last few years, I've always been nice to them, a gentleman if you will, but I never traded my manliness to get in their pants. Believe me, you'll save yourself and the girls you want to date a lot of troubles and time by being honest with your feelings (but with careful subtlety).

There's a lot to learn about seduction, and no amount of bad advice from PUAs or bad advice from women (the two extremes) will ever get you as far as sincerely acknowledging your wants, and then doing what it takes to get there.
 

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Only problem is, you're preaching to the choir. Most guys with SA would like nothing more than to get to know a girl and have a deep connection with her, but that's precisely what we can't do because we have such great anxiety.

Besides, I've known jerks who had no interest in getting to know girls in any depth, yet they seemed to have no trouble finding relationships. So there must be more to the story. The number 1 thing that determines whether you can find a relationship/sex or not is the ability to talk without too many inhibitions, no matter how jerky or nice you act when you talk. The whole nice/jerk question is only relevant in fine-tuning the kind of relationships you get once you are already uninhibited. But just being able to talk to girls (in any way) will get you significant results. Too bad us SA guys can't even do that.
 

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Also, a couple of times I've tried to respectfully "take things further" with female friends, only to be told "I only like you as a friend".
This by like a million.

When I hear women say "oh I want to get know a guy as a friend/person first... blah blah blah" my natural reaction is to roll my eyes:roll .

I have had tons of female friends, and I have never had a serious relationship.

For many of these girls I am among their closest friend, I know things about them that their families don't know, and some know things about me I would not even tell a priest in confessional. But when it comes to turning that friendship into romance it isn't even a "hey let's give it a shot, and see what happens" it is a hard and fast "NO."

I am not complaining about those girls, just saying the advice of "get to a know a girl first" is among the worst advice in the world. Getting to know her is fine, it's wonderful, but you need to get to her by letting her know you want to be more than "just friends." ie you get to know her by dating her.

I had a female friend tell a story about another male friend (not me) who tried to date her. And even as she told the story she got so pissed:mum. (I never saw her so mad) Her logic was she felt they "agreed" to be "just friends" and he was trying to change the nature of that, and she felt it was unfair to her.

As a guy, I naturally disagreed, I could understand where the other guy was coming from... he never agreed that he did not have romantic feelings for her, and he never agreed that he would never gain romantic feelings for her.

But her story was like the biggest "AH-HA" moment in my life. Women decide at the start of a relationship whether or not they want it to be potentially romantic or just friendship. Which makes it pretty clear that men have to make it clear at the beginning of the relationship that they don't want it to be just friendship.

How does one do that without coming on to strong is a hard question to answer. But economically speaking, it is more sound to come on too strong and dial it back as needed, than to not come on strong enough and then try to increase sexual interest.

If a guy comes on to strong to a girl who will never date him, she will shoot him down right away, he saves himself a lot of time and energy.

If he does not come on strong enough she will place him in a "just friends" box and have him as her puppy dog pet who gives her attention and then when he tries to change the relationship she will hit him over nose with a rolled up newspaper saying "Bad dog, we are just friends."
 

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There's so much sh*t and contradictory information about dating/attraction on the internet. I just think, **** it, I can't be arsed with stupid games and dubious "science", I'll just exist as normal and hope someone finds me attractive despite the fact that hasn't happened yet.

The whole dating advice community seems to be one massive list of stereotypes and assumptions, putting people into largely meaningless categories such as "nice guys", "bad boys", etc, jargon such as "friend-zone" which is used to sell books and programs.

Whether this stuff is true or not, it's all bollocks to me and I find it pointless and misleading.
 

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There's so much sh*t and contradictory information about dating/attraction on the internet. I just think, **** it, I can't be arsed with stupid games and dubious "science", I'll just exist as normal and hope someone finds me attractive despite the fact that hasn't happened yet.

The whole dating advice community seems to be one massive list of stereotypes and assumptions, putting people into largely meaningless categories such as "nice guys", "bad boys", etc, jargon such as "friend-zone" which is used to sell books and programs.

Whether this stuff is true or not, it's all bollocks to me and I find it pointless and misleading.
Wow, you're 16? That's the best post about this topic in this entire forum. People talk about this stuff as if we're all mass produced robots that behave the same way anywhere, anytime. The dynamics of social interactions are... dynamic. Don't let those stupid clichés define your actions. Relationships evolve, for better or worse.
 

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Because that nice quiet guy is no fun.
They don't know that :?. Maybe once you get to know us we can be more fun. People are so judgmental, just because someone's quiet that doesn't mean they're "no fun".
 

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Because that nice quiet guy is no fun.

The trouble is, as a general rule, most young women's idea of 'fun' seems to be my idea of obnoxious, patronising, clichéd posturing. Should I just pretend to be one of these guys just to conform to the prevalent interpretation of 'fun'?

Going to a concert or a theme park is fun. Most guys who "do well" with women seem to be ****ing morons.
 

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There's so much sh*t and contradictory information about dating/attraction on the internet. I just think, **** it, I can't be arsed with stupid games and dubious "science", I'll just exist as normal and hope someone finds me attractive despite the fact that hasn't happened yet.

The whole dating advice community seems to be one massive list of stereotypes and assumptions, putting people into largely meaningless categories such as "nice guys", "bad boys", etc, jargon such as "friend-zone" which is used to sell books and programs.

Whether this stuff is true or not, it's all bollocks to me and I find it pointless and misleading.
Wonderful post. I was going to post something like this myself but saw yours and decided not to. I wish more people thought like this.:yes
 

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Following blindly some people's advice won't get you far in life, but neither will trashing all the theories about human relationships do any good to you. It's a pretty immature kind of thinking imo, whether you're 28 or 16 years old.
If "all the theories" are reduced to "nice guy"/"bad guy" and "friend-zone", and other simplistic crap like that, then that's not really all theories, is it?

Emotions can be narrowed down to a set of general rules. It has exceptions of course, but general rules are here to give you a direction to follow, so that you don't do have to do 1001 mistakes before making the right choice or saying the right words.

Our whole civilization is built upon a mass of knowledge just like this one. Seduction can and should be taught be knowledgeable people. A father should give his son a set of tools to help him grow and find his own voice, just like someone who's more knowledgeable about seduction should give or sell his knowledge to people who are IN NEED of this knowledge.
There are rituals and rites of passage that are a part of human relationships, and rightly so, in my opinion. The game of seduction, eye contact, flirting, smiling, laughing, wanting to impress... that's cool, I like that. But then there's arbitrary made up bull**** that go way beyond that and are nothing more than crazy media-induced stereotypes. It takes an immature person to actually behave according to those stereotypes.

Now if you're smart enough, you can even begin to sort out the good advice from the bad ones. But if you think that you don't need the knowledge of other people, then by all means, write your own rules ! Someone said (I don't remember who he is) that if you're unknowing and are able to create something out of this unknowledge, then you should embrace the path of unknowledge. But if you fail to create something out of unknowledge, then you should turn to knowledge and start learning about your subject..
What you're calling "knowledge", isn't. There's no manual for relationships that apply to every human out there. At best, you have a draft of a guide, written by god-knows-who under god-knows-what conditions. I understand that people like to keep things simple, making up catchy words and soundbites to give them the illusion of knowledge, but these PUA-induced, Hollywood-reinforced, frequently regurgitated concepts are ridiculous.
 
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