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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Society doesn't do enough to help those who cannot cope or assimulate

By now I am sure many of you have heard about the gym shooter.

Its the same story again, haven't had sex or romance in years, constant rejection, no close friends.. erupts in a violent outburst killing women along with him. In my opinion these sort of outbursts are easily preventable. All it takes is outreach !

Many express the opinion : the world is good to be rid of him, he was filled with a lot of hate, this man was sexist, this man is not your typical SA'er... Nonsense :mum This is S.A.S. we have more in common with him that we think.

Society's general hands off approach to those who appear socially anxious is exactly what allows such hatred to build up ! You know, how everyone notices that "Ben" is a bit creepy, so we all give "Ben" wide girth, whenever he's around- therefore Ben, feels even more isolated.

A few good friends/ family can make life without a woman, worth living.

So next time you see a guy who looks like he's carrying the world on his shoulders... don't be afraid to talk to him, you might just be saving yourself and others around you.
 

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Sorry but I think the premise of your post is absolute ridiculous and irresponsible.

Having SA (or any other problem whether it be mental, physical, or otherwise) is NOT an excuse for violence. Just a SA is not an excuse for misogyny (or misandry for that matter too).

This quote in particular is distressing... As a woman, NO I WILL NOT GIVE A SKETCHY MAN ON THE STREET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. Why should I? It is my life that's at risk, as these murders very clearly show. There is a big difference between being a nice but shy human being, and giving off "creepy" or dangerous vibes... And there is nothing wrong with people following an instinct to "give a wide berth" when it comes to their self-preservation.

It is not society's duty to go out and help every single person who feels isolated. There are plenty of people that CAN and DO help, but ultimately it is THAT individual's prerogative to SEEK help for themselves and try to better their lives. While sad, at the very least the have the option to commit suicide (it is their own life after all)... BUT WHY KILL AND INJURE OTHERS???

There is not excuse as far as I am concerned.
 

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It is difficult to reach out to someone who isolates himself.
 

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Ok, but sometimes it isn't so much about getting all personally involved but just saying hi, looking AT them instead of through them, smiling and you can keep going.

I realized this when I worked in a homeless shelter for a year... people just want to exist... they want to feel like they exist... like they matter somehow, somewhere, and that they aren't freaking invisible.

I am a woman, 5 ft tall and could easily be hurt or taken advantage of.... I don't put myself in danger but if I am walking down the street and someone looks out of sorts I still look them in the eye and say good morning (or whatever time of day it is)... if they are panhandling I give them a buck (always)...

I would never ever want to think that they did something desperate because I was the last straw that broke them down... plus I genuinely care and have empathy for other people.... to a fault sometimes... sometimes I feel like I physically can feel their pain... it sucks sometimes but I just pray a lot more and offer it up.

My goal is to someday be able to afford to work at a homeless shelter again... I can't afford to volunteer and my work hours and being a single mom prevent me from volunteering but it was the most rewarding thing I have ever done and I finally felt like I was making a difference to the world.
 

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Hi caflme,

I agree that is does not take much to be nice and everyone should strive to make small gestures of kidness to others.. and especially those that may seem like they need it the most. But my argument is that it should not be to someone's own detriment... i will not be nice if i feel it could put me in danger.

i do not think everyone has it in them to commit murder. I don't think that this man just had a bad case of SA and couldn't cope anymore... nor do I think his problems could have been prevented with a kind chat or a smile from someone at some random moment in his life.

We all assume that he didn't have a gf or whatever because no one gave him a chance... "god, what *****es those women must have been." Umm... maybe no one gave him a chance for a very good reason... you can sense when things aren't "quite right" with someone and by that I don't mean being shy or a bit socially awkward or nervous. Those are normal human emotions/actions. What is not normal is lacking the moral turpitude to know that killing is horrible. Is it not likely that people stayed away for a good reason?

I know "being isolated" is a very touchy subject on a SA site (as it should be obviously!) but come on... I do not think this is a question of being in the same boat with people like this.
 

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While I also believe not everyone has it in them to commit murder, I do believe this man could have been helped. He obviously seemed to be trying to reach out for friends and love but obviously had some kind of trouble expressing himself in a way that was acceptable or decipherable to the people around him. Especially for a man of his age, its hard to gain certain acceptance from people when you're social skills aren't very mature.

According to his blog entries, he'd had a hard time communicating even in his teen years and felt his family ignored and bossed him around more than nurtured him. He lived in a region (western and central PA) that's very closed-minded and conservative and people would see something like shyness or SA as weakness rather than a truly treatable mental disease.

I'm sure the media will want to try to dismiss all of that to take away any sympathy from this guy for the sake of the victims. Especially since this shooting is very premeditated. Understandable but it's not that simple.
 

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We live in a society where people will actively reach out to hurt us much more than they will ever reach out to help us. Sometimes bad things happen to normal people. You cannot possibly fathom what sort of pain an individual has gone through, unless you yourself are that individual. Nobody has the right to pass judgement on or ostracize him from the "rest" of society.

Tragedies like this will continue to happen unless we choose to do something to reach out to others in need rather than ostracize them. Again, we live in a society where people will hurt or avoid us rather than help us. And the families of the victims? While I do sympathize with them, sometimes bad things happen to normal people - it's simply the reality of things, and it's the price we have to pay for living with society. Where there is good, there is bad. You cannot change that. If you don't want things like this to happen around you, then you can bring all your friends, family, and everyone else you love with you and live together in absolute isolation with no dependency whatsoever on mainstream society - otherwise, things like this are bound to happen. We live in society. This is our society, not other people's. All of us as individuals are partly and fundamentally responsible for the actions of others within our own society on a capital level, and unless all of us take individual, additive measures to correct things like these from happening in the future rather than ignore and avoid them, there will be a price to pay for living with society, such as what happened here.
 

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I understand the points you are making, I just think:

1. It is quite a jump to go from SA sufferer to murderer. I do not think EVERYONE under the "right conditions" can be made to snap and driven to kill another human being. I think he must have had other underlying issues that can't be simply encapsulated as being "social anxiety". Which I believe makes it an inherently different situation from the one most of us are dealing with, LaRibbon.

2. it is everyone's duty as a human being to show basic levels of respect, kindness, and support to one another... but it is not "society's" job to go out and take care of people. individuals have a responsibility over their own lives... whether they choose to get help for their problems in a constructive way or whether they chose to go out and shoot people. those are their actions- and they can and are judged for them. that is the point of free will... for good and for bad.

3. Zeddicus, you wrote: "...sometimes bad things happen to normal people - it's simply the reality of things, and it's the price we have to pay for living with society." However, you apply this "just deal with it" approach to the victims and families... yet in your first paragraph you failed to apply it to the shooter. One could easily have said, "That's life. You've been isolated most for most of it. And it's probably genetic and has only been made worst by your family. That sucks a lot but deal with it." ?

Sorry. But it think we will have to disagree on this.
 

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I understand the points you are making, I just think:

1. It is quite a jump to go from SA sufferer to murderer. I do not think EVERYONE under the "right conditions" can be made to snap and driven to kill another human being. I think he must have had other underlying issues that can't be simply encapsulated as being "social anxiety". Which I believe makes it an inherently different situation from the one most of us are dealing with, LaRibbon.

2. it is everyone's duty as a human being to show basic levels of respect, kindness, and support to one another... but it is not "society's" job to go out and take care of people. individuals have a responsibility over their own lives... whether they choose to get help for their problems in a constructive way or whether they chose to go out and shoot people. those are their actions- and they can and are judged for them. that is the point of free will... for good and for bad.

3. Zeddicus, you wrote: "...sometimes bad things happen to normal people - it's simply the reality of things, and it's the price we have to pay for living with society." However, you apply this "just deal with it" approach to the victims and families... yet in your first paragraph you failed to apply it to the shooter. One could easily have said, "That's life. You've been isolated most for most of it. And it's probably genetic and has only been made worst by your family. That sucks a lot but deal with it." ?

Sorry. But it think we will have to disagree on this.
I agree with this generally, although I'd add to your second point. While individuals have a responsibility over their own lives, some people are simply not capable of exercising that responsibility. I'm not saying that was the case with the man who shot people in PA, because I don't know.

Second, "help" is not always that helpful. I work in a mental health field, and when a violent act happens locally and there's a suspicion that the person had MI issues, I'm amazed at the blog posts and letters to the editor asking where the services were. Folks really think there is a social service network out there staffed and funded to effectively deal with this sort of thing. You can't really count on that. Sometimes the system and the people in it are able to make a positive difference, and sometimes they're not able to.
 

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Thanks for the post Atticus. You're right, because a lack of services or the beurocracy of those services can make getting help very difficult.

Over all I just want to say that i know i got quite worked up over this topic. and im sorry if i came across too strongly or offended anyone. I think its good that we can all come on here had share... even if sometimes that means disagreeing and making a fuss.
 

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3. Zeddicus, you wrote: "...sometimes bad things happen to normal people - it's simply the reality of things, and it's the price we have to pay for living with society." However, you apply this "just deal with it" approach to the victims and families... yet in your first paragraph you failed to apply it to the shooter. One could easily have said, "That's life. You've been isolated most for most of it. And it's probably genetic and has only been made worst by your family. That sucks a lot but deal with it." ?
Yes. Bad things happen to normal people. Both, the way the victims died, and the history of the one who did the shooting. I believe that we all start with a blank slate from birth, a state of neutrality, and that sometimes things happen to quickly and severely propel people to the bad end of things, especially in their early lives when they are growing up, as is the case with the shooter and many of us who have SA.

Oddly enough, in consideration of the last quoted sentence, I have been isolated for most of my life, as a result of my anxiety and post-traumatic stress disorder which I developed in no small part due to nearly being beaten to death on more than one occasion by others during middle school for no apparent reason other than for their own personal amusement. My anxiety is made worse by my family in that they don't understand, because they are all flaming extroverts. My life sucks, but nobody is showing up on my front door to help me, and when I did honestly try to seek help while doing military service, I confessed my social and anxiety difficulties to a therapist who then recommended me for permanent discharge from all branches of the U.S. military, which is eventually what happened. What makes it worse is that both of my parents served happily in the military and even met each other during their service, and now my sister is currently serving. It sucks, but I basically have to just deal with it. I like to think of myself as a nice and forgiving person - I never hurt anyone, but in the end, bad things still happened to me.

But the point is that such things can be prevented if more people start doing the right thing for others in the first place. I am simply stating my opinion - if I have bothered anyone, simply disregard my post.
 

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I totally agree with vincymon, society doesn't do enough for people who get to this point. We've all had bad things happen to us yes, but if you reach a point where you're thinking about harming others, it's society's responsibility to try and prevent this from happening. Same thing for trying to stop terrorist acts, unemployment, homelessness. These things affect our society as a whole. So it would be the intelligent thing to try and prevent these types of situations for all of us. Maybe "society" doesn't have the means or capacity to deal with it, seems like for a lot of issues we don't, but we still give the effort. Why not here? I mean personally, I see a difference between this guy, columbine, and va tech. than "serial killers", who kill to kill and try and not to get caught. It's like they were trying to send a message, end their anguish, hurt and frustration of other people and then themselves. No it isn't the individuals responsibility to help another person, you're not obligated in anyway but I think vincymon's point was that if you have the capability and desire to, it could actually help someone else not end up there. The individual has the responsibility for themselves and their actions, but like it was said, and obviously, they are not finding constructive means of helping themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
This is a good debate. Keep it up people. And if you're not particularly socially anxious today, bring this case up with a stranger.

The more people that are aware of how social anxiety can affect the mind... the more equiped we will be to combat these "friendless-life-long-virgin-turned-murderer" cases.
 

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I think Nietzsche ones said something like this: "push the one who is falling".
What it means is that Society does not tolerate a weak male... and forces him to commit suicide in the end..

The Society does it by making women reject him... constantly!

Thus excluding his weak genes from the gene pool of healthy genes, so crucial for survival of the species...
 

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I think Nietzsche ones said something like this: "push the one who is falling".
What it means is that Society does not tolerate a weak male... and forces him to commit suicide in the end..

The Society does it by making women reject him... constantly!

Thus excluding his weak genes from the gene pool of healthy genes, so crucial for survival of the species...
Oh, I see how it is.

Weak male, huh? Well, what if I push y'all off first? Survival of the species - what now, beey0tch? Can't reject me now, can you?

Anyway.
 

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What constitutes a "weak male"? Are you weak because you don't have a girlfriend, or significant other? I guess that would include females too. So apparently you're weak if you're not a procreating machine right? So if you don't have kids or never plan on having kids, does that make you weak as well? And if you're weak btw, that means you're not worthy of life, because you don't have healthy genes obviously. Society doesn't force anyone to commit suicide, that's an individual's choice, unfortunately. So what if someone commits suicide over depression? It's because they didn't have "healthy genes" so they didn't belong to society right? So everyone who's ever been depressed and never committed suicide, really should??? Theres a lot more going on if the person doesn't feel they are worth living if the opposite sex "doesn't appreciate them". "Push the one who is falling"???? Just because you've fallen once twice or a million times, doesn't mean you can't get back up again. We've all had our down, 'weak' times, if you're HUMAN. So lets just help you stay in the dumps once your down then, you're not worthy of life right? So what if SOME women may have rejected him, doesn't mean he couldn't have found someone one day who didn't.
 

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He needed to work on himself, it was his own responsibility. People and society as a whole have their own life stressors. I just don't feel sorry for someone who opens fire on innocent people. Just like the dysfunction I have in my own head i'm responsible for. I'm past the point of blaming other people, i've spent years alienating and pointing the finger and finally realized I was the problem.
 

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I agree that a bit of support makes thigns easier, but I don't want society to reach out to me in any kind of contrived way. If I look like I am carrying the world on my shoulders I don't want to be stigmatised for it or to be seen as someone who is dangerous.
 
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