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Dvana
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay for anyone that is interested I thought that I would let you know how my medications having been going. There was a couple of you who seemed interested and it has been a long while since I have written on here

Well anyways I have been on Nardil for 6 months and felt no change - well that is not true - things have gotten much worse for me while on this medication, it simply has not worked. I wanted it for social anxiety, it simply has not helped with it and unfortunately my depression and general anxiety have spiraled out of control like never before and which concerns me far more then social anxiety. I am confused all the time. I just want to feel normal again.

I have asked a couple of people with some knowledge (unfortunately that does not include my pdoc) and there only appears to be two possibilities regarding Nardil. The first is that it has actually made my depression much worse - I have had severely agitated, almost violent episodes of urges to either hurt myself or commit suicide. I have never experienced this before, yes I have depression but never agitated violent episodes of it. I have hurt myself several times (very new to me) and been very close to checking out a few times over the last couple of months. This has happened yet there has been no new stressors in my life that I can think of that has added to make this occur. I really probably should of gone to hospital. Now if there is a correlation between Nardil and increased depression I am lead to believe that I would be probably the first person in my age group to support this theory - so I do not think or anyone would dare to argue that is actually true.

The second and only other possibility that I have been given and I am sure that many people here will not like this is that Nardil in itself is ineffective for me and many others simply because it is to weak of an anti depression. I always had concerns because it was an old drug but always thought it was so strong - I guess that is wrong - the only strong thing about it is the horrible side effects and restrictions. Believe me they suck, the worst out of the million meds I have taken.

Personally I do not know if one theory explains my trial of Nardil over the other, nor do I care, I only wish to be better, but I can happily say that I am glad that it is over because I really do not wish to kill myself and want something that actually works, but I am also extremely disappointed that it has not worked, I wanted it to so much and now I have no idea what to do.

Anyways that is the findings of my Nardil trial, I wish I had a much better outcome to share with you all. I would not recommend Nardil to anyone. Now I want to go back to serzone and welbutrin, not available in my country but they have been the best for me and the side effects of each are the lowest of all meds. Pdoc has said in the past no more meds after Nardil - they do not work for me, somewhat true - nothing has worked for social anxiety but it has for depression and general anxiety and I need them so much right now, I hope he changes his mind, he does not know the full extent of how bad it's been simply because I wanted Nardil to work so much.

Anyways good luck all
 
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Thats to bad, hope u are planning out on a non selfharming level...

Did you notice any difference when you stopped taking it and only the MAO-inhibition that last for some 2 weeks?
 

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Nardil did nothing for me either, except make me have low-blood pressure a lot and sleepy all the time. I tried it for a long time too.

I think both, "possibilities", you came up with are true, your depression got worse while on it (for whatever reason), and Nardil isn't a predictably strong medication.
 

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Dvana
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140 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thats to bad, hope u are planning out on a non selfharming level...

Did you notice any difference when you stopped taking it and only the MAO-inhibition that last for some 2 weeks?
Two weeks ago I came as close to suicide as I have ever been, the next day I became sick with the flu, my agitation had been building and building until I felt I had no more options available, the urges are so overwhelming, scary, etc, I feel totally as if I am driven to it. though when I became sick the next day all agitation slowly started to leave. I could not sleep at all which is a huge problem for me when I am sick, I just wish to be left alone to die (not literally) in peace and sleep until I get better again. This is when I decided to reduce the dosage, I cut it in half to 45, and some days 30 and I finally could get a lot of sleep, for about the last two weeks I felt my normal depressed self, lol. I got over the flu about 2 days ago, I am now down to 15 Nardil. The same day I felt physically better after the flu this agitation/anxiety or whatever it is feels like it is starting its cycle again. (don't know what other word to describe it other then cycle)

I hope I do not self harm again, I say that after just doing so a couple of hours ago, I had two good weeks. I very much hide it and act out where it can not be seen. I have yet to discuss this with pdoc. I have to tell him, god I just don't get this, I'm to old for this ****.

So yes I did initially feel mentally better when I lowered the dosage - I personally think it is the meds doing this more then myself but no expert would agree with that, if I was a teen or in my early twenties then maybe. I have lowered my dosage from 105mg and each time felt better but it has not lasted. The whole thing is just far to confusing, I feel much to confused. I will finish Nardil totally in about 3 days.

I was under the impression that Nardil was the strongest med available for depression - I got that impression from this site and the forum users, the experts that I have spoken with say that Nardil is in fact very weak for depression, I wish I knew that before.
 

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Hehe Danny Glovers catchfrase from Lethal weapon, im to old for this ****.

But after these 3days you will be left with the MAOi effect, hopefully you will feel better then when you where on the drug!
 

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Dvana
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I knew that there had to be one in the group, lol, doubting Thomas. Personally i will say get again that I was under the impression that it was the strongest. In Australia my current pdoc really knows nothing about the drug, my past pdoc would not put me on it he informed me that he only had one patient on the drug and that this patient was in far worse condition then me. These two pdocs are relatively young.

Anyway I have been so conflicted and confused that I contacted two other pdocs that I have seen, one still advises me today via email, they both reside in the states and each are much older then my Australian pdocs and both stated that they are well experienced in the med. Each mentioned nothing else against the med except the it was to weak for me, especially considering my past medications. So there you go. They are my experts. I trust them very much. I will ask them why they believe it to be weak, it will take a while though, I have spent three days on a response to ones last email and still have yet to finish it.

Oh yeah the fact that it has done nothing at all for me would also suggest it to be ****. My social anxiety has both been better and much worse. I have had severe panic/anxiety that I have never had before and it's severe as it is - an example of this -- I was having a conversation with a group and then suddenly out of the blue I was no longer hearing what this one guy was saying - perfectly normal you say for panic right? The thing is I was hearing this person but what he was saying was not actually coming out of his mouth. This was such a weird and scary experience and difficult to explain. I thought that I was going completely insane skitz. But according to my doctors this is very severe panic/social anxiety, like an alien part of you has taken over. I have the usual "they're looking at me" they're judging me, etc a million times but this was on a whole new level. This person I was talking with was judging me, calling me names, etc having a whole conversation, this conversation was only in my head, not reality but I swear it was real. I was completely paralyzed in fear, pretty normal for panic, but I wanted to yell and scream at this guy to stop, glad I did not because he was not even saying anything bad about me at all, he was not even directly talking to me.
 

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Dvana
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Watertouch - how long is that effect meant to last? I hope it's true. I really know nothing about this stuff, I just want to feel okay and normal and do not care for GABA this and serotonin that, it's all French to me anyways.

If this is something people are after why do they continue on it for years?
 

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Well the so to say goal is to inhibith 80% of the MAO, about 60mg Parnate or 90mg Nardil if i remember right... But i think the Pill itself also works...

But from you stop you should wait 2weeks for the MAO enzym to start working again, or when the dietrestriction isn't actuall,, cause of the MAO enzym...

So you have the first stop from the medicin, then after about 2 weeks the MAO starts working... So maybe just quitting Nardil but still having the MAOi effect could work for you.
 

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I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with Nardil. Everywhere I read though, says it's the most effective antidepressant for depression and anxiety. Of course that doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone and some will have a bad experience with it just like any other medication. So just because it doesn't work for some, doesn't make it a weak medication for depression. By many accounts, it's the strongest and highest rated in all kinds of different reviews on the net.

Anyways, I hope you find the right medication for you and get relief. I know you're probably against MAOI's now, but Parnate is another medication I've read a lot of good reviews on. I can understand though if you really are done with them and wouldn't want to go that route. People on here have had success with stimulants like Adderall, but there's the tolerance issue you'd have to watch out for. Maybe you can try augmenting other antidepressants? Zoloft and wellbutrin are known as 'Welloff'. I think Effexor and Remeron are known as California Rocket Fuel. Suppose to be more successful as augments for some.

Lastly, I've read that MAOI's are usually best for people with 'atypical depression', which usually means their mood improves in response to positive events and they have rejection sensitivity.

From wikipedia Despite its name, "atypical" depression does not mean it is uncommon or unusual.[2] The reason for its name is twofold: (1) it was identified with its "unique" symptoms subsequent to the identification of melancholic depression and (2) its responses to the two different classes of antidepressants that were available at the time were different from melancholic depression (i.e., MAOIs had clinically significant benefits for atypical depression, while tricyclics did not)

So I would venture that you have a different form of depression like melachonic depression that doesn't really respond so well to MAOIs. Have you tried tricylics?

From wikipedia..

However, tricyclic antidepressants still are probably more successful in treating melancholic depression than other antidepressant drug classes.[5]

Nonetheless, the TCAs are still occasionally used for treatment-resistant depression that has failed to respond to therapy with newer antidepressants.[6]They are not considered addictive and are somewhat preferable to the monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The side effects of the TCAs usually come to prominence before the therapeutic benefits against depression and/or anxiety do, and for this reason, they may potentially be somewhat dangerous, as volition can be increased, possibly giving the patient a greater desire to attempt or commit suicide.[7]
 

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Dvana
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It's now mine turn to be a doubting Thomas, hey I have been sucked into believing Nardil was the gold standard for months, even suckered into thinking it was awesome when clearly my actions and experiences where suggesting the complete opposite, so where is this evidence that it is so awesome? A couple of personal good experiences on a forum? What makes you think it's the strongest?


I have no reason to doubt my old USA pdocs when they say it is weak, why should I? I was as shocked as you but I think more inclined to believe it from my experience with the drug. They have known me for well over a decade. I actually thought that both of them would go right off about the drug. All of us that have used it know how dirty it is and all the restrictions but they didn't attack it in any way other then to say it was not strong enough. I also wish to find out why they stated this, but what if let's say that they are old pdocs with tons of patients who they have prescribed Nardil and it simply has not worked for their patients. Would that be convincing? It could be something as simple as doing their job maybe. I dunno I will ask but I think we have the answer, maybe they just take other peoples word for it like most of us do here, including myself. That sound really nasty, sorry. But really where is this evidence that it is so good. Please no Wikipedia.

Some people a while back were eager to see how my trial of Nardil went, I wish it was not a trial, I wish it had worked, it has not. If it works for some people on here, that's awesome, and I really wished it worked for everyone especially selfish me. But again it has not worked, and it actually good to see that some people have posted in this thread that it has not worked for them either. It is a very overrated medication on this forum unfortunately, very unfortunately, for me.

So yes again I definitely would say that I would not recommend this medication to anyone, it's my personal opinion, sorry if your upset by that. It's been a very dirty drug for me and has not worked on any level. Though I would not count it out either if someone is interested, it may just work but I hope that they have exhausted all other options first.

Yes I have tried many meds over the last 20+ years. Back in the early dark ages before SSRIs, TCAs and long term benzos were the answer. Some helped somewhat, none were a cure. Most are a blur, my last successful combo was serzone (genetic) and welbutrin, I was on them for I dunno 10 to 15 years. Still had depression, mostly because this combo did nothing for SA, but depression was mild unlike now, general anxiety was up and down with some periods of becoming very physically ill. Still nothing like now. This combo really helped regulate my sleep pattern, serzone at night, 20 minutes later fast asleep, welbutrin in the morning and wide awake and ready to go. But again did nothing for SA and I avoided almost everything. I think I will try and order this combo online, best of all no nasty sides like all the rest. Dunno what I am going to with SA, really do not care, depression and general anxiety is more important to fix up. Having said that my current pdoc has already said no more meds and my old ones in the USA have not made any suggestions - I have asked but both have kind of avoided answering for now, they say they will get to that later, um interesting........
 

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I was just trying to be helpful and give you some potential advice. The Wikipedia provides links to the sources. You don't have to look at it if you don't want to. Your experience only speaks for what the drug did for you, not what it will be like for everyone. And someone who's had success on Nardil also doesn't speak for what everyone else will feel on Nardil. All I'm saying though is out of all the reviews on different medications I've seen, Nardil seems to be the most successful for more people. May be a weak antidepressant for you, but it's not a weak antidepressant in general.
 

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I have no reason to doubt my old USA pdocs when they say it is weak, why should I?
First, tons of research. Second, tons of anecdotal experiences. Third, if it was a "weak" antidepressant, why would any doctor agree to prescribe it given the risks? Wouldn't it just have died out?

And, what does "weak" antidepressant even mean?

Here's a study saying it's as effective as amitriptyline:

http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=492400

Here's an actual expert recommending its use:

http://pro.psychcentral.com/this-mo...d-reflections-on-the-use-of-maois/002956.html

Of course, there's the famous letter by another world-renown expert, calling them "effective & potent anti-depressant drugs":

http://www.psychotropical.com/index.php/open-letter-using-monoamine-oxidase-inhibitor-maoi-drugs

Here's a study saying it's effective for melancholic depression:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3525522

Here's some more ****:

http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327(98)00037-8/abstract?cc=y=?cc=y=

Plus, my pdoc has been practicing for 30+ years and has told me Nardil is an extremely effective antidepressant. I called another pdoc on the phone with his own practice, and he told me that he didn't know what Nardil was. They say a lot of ****. They all have their own little pet opinions.

So, it sucks that it didn't work for you, but I don't think there's any real evidence that it's weaker than any other antidepressants.
 

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Dvana
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I started this thread as a review on my experience on earlier posts people asked me to keep them informed as to progress, that is all I am trying to do. There was no progress for me on Nardil, in fact I became worse, was that the fault of the drug or me, I dunno nor really care. My review is that i do not recommend it, or only as a last resort because the sides are so brutal, definitely not for first or second timers without a history of undertaking CBT, etc. I have had more success with other meds without the restrictions and sides. there are plenty of people on this site that do recommend this medication and push for people to give it a go because of their positive experiences. This is just my review and again I am sorry if you do not like it, but it's my truth and I do not like it, I just wanted to share it.

I did read your post on TCAs. Actually I found the last sentence to be very interesting on TCAs and wonder whether that is true of MAOIs, it would make tons of sense because both work in the same way, the negatives come before the positives, the bad side effects actually make depression worse. But if that was the possibility as I mentioned earlier then the medical profession would have to change its whole view on this medication. I am in my 40s. There is only a danger for antidepressants for teens and people in their early twenties. They are not going to change that in a hurry even it is completely true.

There is a personal review site on Nardil that I have seen before where most actually complain about the drug - the change of formula - on that review site there was several family members reviewing the medication for their loved ones. The loved one can not review the medication themselves, they have all committed suicide, the families blame the drug. Very sad stuff. I have also seen tons of positives for this med, and it is very much pushed on this site, that is why I wanted it so badly.

The only other possible explanation in their mind not mine is that the medication is to weak. Which again makes sense to me as it did not work.

But there are only two explanations in their minds.

To be honest I do not care either way, I just want I something to work. I have no idea the type of depression I have. All my files just say depression or major depression, I have not asked.

I am very sorry if I have been or still are rude, I do not mean to be, or even if I have read and answered your comment correctly. I am so frustrated, agitated, disappointed, confused, depressed, - just sick. I do not mean to be rude. I just saw that you have started Nardil - I really hope it is everything you want out of it and more
 

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Dvana
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Daddylonglegs - I think you have answered your own question in the first sentence, it has died out hasn't it, and most will not prescribe it because of the dangers, yes we all know those dangers are greatly inflated. how many world wide users, not many, I think I read 20,000 somewhere, maybe 120,000 can't remember

Anyway I do not wish to start a disagreement about how good this or bad this ****ed up medication is. This is just my personal review of this med, my experience, I'm so sorry if people have an issue with that but hey none of you could come close to how sorry I am about it not working.

I have asked what they meant by "weak". I am going to bet on personal experience.
 

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Dvana
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
No euphoria, was really wanting to give that a go, I got up to 105mg, but nothing but sucky sides for around 3+ months. And still this horrible agitation and confusion - but that could just be me. Initially at a very low dose I did experience some very short positives. Once I felt so completely relaxed and at ease like never before, lasted about 1/2 an hour and another time I was out and about and the world just seemed so ****ing beautiful about 1/2 hour, maybe that was euphoria or just wishful thinking
 

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Daddylonglegs - I think you have answered your own question in the first sentence, it has died out hasn't it, and most will not prescribe it because of the dangers, yes we all know those dangers are greatly inflated. how many world wide users, not many, I think I read 20,000 somewhere, maybe 120,000 can't remember

Anyway I do not wish to start a disagreement about how good this or bad this ****ed up medication is. This is just my personal review of this med, my experience, I'm so sorry if people have an issue with that but hey none of you could come close to how sorry I am about it not working.

I have asked what they meant by "weak". I am going to bet on personal experience.
No, because by "died out", I meant completely, as soon as a strong antidepressants came along. It's ~50 years after they started using them, and a good number of docs still prescribe them, despite pharmaceutical companies constantly pushing the newest, most expensive drugs on unwitting doctors.

I don't want to start a disagreement either, but you said they were weak. That wasn't just for you but for everyone. You said:

"the experts that I have spoken with say that Nardil is in fact very weak for depression"

I'm not doubting that they told you that. I just think it's wrong and I provided evidence to the contrary. I wouldn't want someone finding this thread and hearing one side without hearing the other.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you. It probably was weak in your case. It probably was the cause of your agitation and suicidality, and your case probably isn't isolated. I completely believe what you're saying. It's not a miracle drug for everyone, and for some it's the very opposite.
 

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BTW dvana I "liked" your post because I appreciate your first person input after such a long trial on the medication - not because of the crappy results. :(

I was under the impression that Nardil was the strongest med available for depression - I got that impression from this site and the forum users, the experts that I have spoken with say that Nardil is in fact very weak for depression, I wish I knew that before.
The "gold standard Nardil" meme has been circling this particular forum for years and I don't see it going away. It's half truth mixed with half myth. Nardil is effective, but not always, and often causes way too many side effects to be realistic. Nardil has a larger effect size than reuptake inhibitors. (In other words it helps to a greater degree -if it helps at all.) It is not a cure.

I'm increasingly inclined to believe that Nardil is a medication to try only when other, more tolerable, medications have failed. I would not personally go with it without having already tried:
  • reuptake inhibitors (at least 3),
  • benzos,
  • stimulants,
  • gabapentin/pregabalin,
  • Parnate,
  • and atypical antipsychotics (2+)
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It isn't a "weak" antidepressant - not sure what that would mean. The effect size is greater than most, for social anxiety, I believe for depression too (blah, don't feel like researching it). This suggests it is certainly not weak.

Tolerable? Maybe half the time. I don't think I could take it. I mean think about the side effects. It's like someone rolled the side effects of lithium and zyprexa and nifedipine into one horrible pill. Can't possibly be weak.

_______________

dvana could it be that in your case, the medication provoked a certainly hypomanic state - namely, dysphoric state? This can happen on any antidepressant and perhaps some are uniquely going to provoke it over others. Your description sounds a lot like medication induced hypomania. The bad kind.
 
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