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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A Clinical Psychologist's blog entry shares an article that shows cognitive disputing techniques are unnecessary for treatment because behavior therapy or even meds are more effective in countering automatic thinking! If this is the case, then just using either exposure therapy alone or exposure therapy with drug treatment should suffice! And by exposure therapy, they probably mean behavioral experiments.

In fact, I encountered about two or three sources showing that exposure therapy is effective enough to treat SAD. This isn't because of habituation but of being able to challenge your automatic thoughts through changing your behavior. As for myself, I'm only going to use Behavioral Experiments and Lexapro to transform my SAD into mere shyness!

Edit: I would like to apologize to the early posters of this thread for my misleading op. Obviously, I should have been more clearer.
 

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A Clinical Psychologist's blog entry shares an article that shows cognitive techniques are unnecessary for treatment because behavior therapy or even meds are more effective in countering automatic thinking! If this is the case, then just using either exposure therapy alone or exposure therapy with drug treatment should suffice!

In fact, I encountered about two or three sources showing that exposure therapy (aka in vivo desensitization) is effective enough to treat SAD. As for myself, I'm only going to use Exposure Therapy and Lexapro to transform my SAD into mere shyness!
did you not say yourself on your blog that there is no point changing behaviour (i.e exposure) without using cbt techniques like precicting what will happen and then finding out what realy happens and using that to alter uor thinking and beleifs ?
 

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did you not say yourself on your blog that there is no point changing behaviour (i.e exposure) without using cbt techniques like precicting what will happen and then finding out what realy happens and using that to alter uor thinking and beleifs ?
That statement only holds true for unmedicated people. With meds, your thinking is dramatically altered automatically without the need to force it. The beliefs and learning follow shortly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
did you not say yourself on your blog that there is no point changing behaviour (i.e exposure) without using cbt techniques like precicting what will happen and then finding out what realy happens and using that to alter uor thinking and beleifs ?
I'm a little annoyed by your message because I interpreted it as having slight annoying tone. Anyway, what I meant to say was that cognitive disputing techniques are not effective. That isn't to say that identifying your automatic thoughts are useless, just that cognitive disputing (socratic questioning) is not effective as behavioral disputing (eg Behavioral Experiment). But yes, cognitive identification is useful.
 

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That statement only holds true for unmedicated people. With meds, your thinking is dramatically altered automatically without the need to force it. The beliefs and learning follow shortly.
im not a fan of meds. as soon as u stop taking them your thinking returns to it origionally anxious state
the root of the socially anxious persons thinking is the subconcious mind. if you want to alter thinking patterns then the place to do it is the subconcious mind. medication does not change things in the subconcious all it does is mask the problem

alsowhy stick chemicals in your system and live with all of these sde effects when its not necesary ?

at the nd of the day to overcome sa you need 2 things 1) a change in thnking 2) a change in behaviour

now wether changing behaviour automatically changes thinking is a debateable issue. if it does then obviously ther would be no need for cbt cos all oyu'd need to do is change behaviour to beat SA

from personal experience ive done some exposure without the thinking and it didnt work but everyone is different, im not saying it wouldnt work for someone else
 

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I'm a little annoyed by your message because it seems to have a slight annoying tone. What I meant to say was that cognitive disputing techniques are not effective. That isn't to say that identifying your automatic thoughts are useless, just that cognitive disputing (socratic questioning) is not effective as behavioral disputing (eg Behavioral Experiment). But yes, cognitive identification is useful.
sorry for the misunderstanding. no annoyance intended

i just thought i heard you say the opposite to what you sed here and i was just checking wether yu did or wether i was mistaken
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
sorry for the misunderstanding. no annoyance intended

i just thought i heard you say the opposite to what you sed here and i was just checking wether yu did or wether i was mistaken
No problem, I should have clarified myself more when I said "cognitive techniques." It was better I said "cognitive disputing" instead.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
now wether changing behaviour automatically changes thinking is a debateable issue. if it does then obviously ther would be no need for cbt cos all oyu'd need to do is change behaviour to beat SA

from personal experience ive done some exposure without the thinking and it didnt work but everyone is different, im not saying it wouldnt work for someone else
Actually, I believe it is established that thoughts, emotions, and behavior are interconnected, meaning they both influence each other. So a change in behavior can influence your thoughts. Probably it didn't worked for you in the past because you weren't consciously challenging your beliefs and assumptions by doing a behavior that is inconsistent with them.

For instance, I believed it was very important how people were thinking of me. So, in the library I would look around the place constantly to check if anyone were looking weirdly or negatively at me. Then, I changed my behavior by not looking around so much, which was inconsistent with my original belief. After that, I became more comfortable, realizing that the thoughts of strangers about me probably isn't so important.
 

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Actually, I believe it is established that thoughts, emotions, and behavior are interconnected, meaning they both influence each other. So a change in behavior can influence your thoughts. Probably it didn't worked for you in the past because you weren't consciously challenging your beliefs and assumptions by doing a behavior that is inconsistent with them.

For instance, I believed it was very important how people were thinking of me. So, in the library I would look around the place constantly to check if anyone were looking weirdly or negatively at me. Then, I changed my behavior by not looking around so much, which was inconsistent with my original belief. After that, I became more comfortable, realizing that the thoughts of strangers about me probably isn't so important.
yer u r rite emotions, thoughts and behaviour are interlinked. behaving in a confident way can make you feel more confident in that actul moment but wether it can change deep rooted beleifs after the actuall event is a different story all together
 

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Erm yeah, but I don't plan to ever stop taking meds. Problem solved.
uve gotta consider the spiritual aspect of the problem though as well. youve got sa cos thats a negative side of yuor charactor that needs to be changed. if you take meds then will never have cured this thing, onl masked it. when you die your soul will beginna new life all over again as another social phobic and you will be back to sqaure one cos you failed to fix te problem in the 1st place

i know people will say this isall a matter of faith and ones persons beleifs but as far as im cocnerned its fact. its a fact that the earth is round but there was a time when some though it was roundand others thought it was flat. just cos some didnt beleive itwas round did not hange the fact that it was
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
yer u r rite emotions, thoughts and behaviour are interlinked. behaving in a confident way can make you feel more confident in that actul moment but wether it can change deep rooted beleifs after the actuall event is a different story all together
Well, I think you might have misinterpreted me. You see, just acting confident won't be effective because you aren't identifying your automatic thought. I mean, that was the missing ingredient to making a behavioral experiment. 1) Identify your automatic thought; 2) experiment by behaving inconsistent to that automatic thought to see what happens; 3) repeat!
 

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uve gotta consider the spiritual aspect of the problem though as well. youve got sa cos thats a negative side of yuor charactor that needs to be changed. if you take meds then will never have cured this thing, onl masked it. when you die your soul will beginna new life all over again as another social phobic and you will be back to sqaure one cos you failed to fix te problem in the 1st place
Believing I will come back as another social phobic is just outright delusional. I'm open to the ideas of religion, spirituality, reincarnation and such, but it all has to have some logic to it.

Some people are born with their pleasure-centres and other mental functions wired correctly; they are born with social phobic traits simply "masked". What's so bad about making myself like that if I can sustain it?

As I always say, nobody can really say they have perspective on social anxiety and depression until they have tried both meds and psychotherapy. That means proper meds, not just SSRIs. Psychologists are painfully unaware of a physical component to mental disorders because they have spent their entire lives focusing on psychology, and druggies tend to ignore the fact that we can all improve ourselves by managing our thoughts correctly.
 

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uve gotta consider the spiritual aspect of the problem though as well. youve got sa cos thats a negative side of yuor charactor that needs to be changed. if you take meds then will never have cured this thing, onl masked it. when you die your soul will beginna new life all over again as another social phobic and you will be back to sqaure one cos you failed to fix te problem in the 1st place

i know people will say this isall a matter of faith and ones persons beleifs but as far as im cocnerned its fact. its a fact that the earth is round but there was a time when some though it was roundand others thought it was flat. just cos some didnt beleive itwas round did not hange the fact that it was
lol.
 

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so basically, you have to change the automatic thought during the behavioral experiment, instead of in a nice closed off room with a therapist and you and the therapist are like:
"so we've identified the negative thought"
"yep, Ive now stopped thinking it"
"now if only you could stop it out there in a real situation"
"yep, that would be nice"
"yepperooo"
"yep indeedee"
"............."
".........."
"so....shouldnt we go out and try this in a real situation?"
"no, i dont leave this room...but at least your well trained to not be anxious when in this room"
"ok......but i dont live my life in this room"
"oh look at that! our times up, gimme my $160 bucks and get the *** out!"


so your better off doing your own cbt yourself during the behavioral experiment
 

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Believing I will come back as another social phobic is just outright delusional. I'm open to the ideas of religion, spirituality, reincarnation and such, but it all has to have some logic to it.

Some people are born with their pleasure-centres and other mental functions wired correctly; they are born with social phobic traits simply "masked". What's so bad about making myself like that if I can sustain it?

As I always say, nobody can really say they have perspective on social anxiety and depression until they have tried both meds and psychotherapy. That means proper meds, not just SSRIs. Psychologists are painfully unaware of a physical component to mental disorders because they have spent their entire lives focusing on psychology, and druggies tend to ignore the fact that we can all improve ourselves by managing our thoughts correctly.
ill giv u a litle insight and maybe it will help. this should probably be in the spirituality section but i think its relevant to your situation here so here goes :

before the physicall world existed all that existed was god and all the souls of humanity. god was GIVING his fulfillment to our souls and our souls were RECEIVING it.

all that existed was god, souls, giving and recieving, pure bliss, nothing else, no negativity , not even time, just endless fullfilment for our souls.
our souls had everything. we had it all. it was heven.

but then our souls sed ''STOP''. there is spiritual law called ''bread of shame'', its as concrete as gravity. bread of shame means that unless you earn something then its notyours and eventually you will feel bad about it. if someone kept giving you 100 dollars every day eventually you would feel bad and have to do something to earn it, thats a fact cos bread of shame is built into your souls dna. if you let go of a pen it will drop to the floor 100 times out of 100 cos of gravity, bread of shame is as concrete as gravity.

our souls were receiving allof this fullfillment but they hadnt earnt it so they sed to god ''stop. we will only accept this fullfillment if you give us a chance to earn it''

god was forcing this fullfilment on us and we were resisting it. at that moment the big bng happend and as a result the physical world, we live in 2day was created

why is this world full of negativity ? why do bad things like SA exist ? its to give us the chance to earn fullfillment

the goal of life is to be happy. its to be as fullfilled as our souls were before the physical world was created. the goal of life is to be 100% fullfilled in every area of life - family, social, finance, carear, relationships etc....

if you look at a social phobic they have got a shere lack of fullfilment in the soial area of there life. obviously you cant reach the level of being 100% fullfilled in all area of life in just 1 lifetime cos theres isnt enough time for yu to reach that level of perfection

when you die your soul comes back in another lifetime to fix the areas of your life that you havent got 100% fullfilment in. you will keep coming back until you have reached your origional goal of 100% fullfilment in all life areas

if you mask your SA with grugs yes it may help you enjoy this lifetime but its pointless cos you will come back here again in another lifetime with all of the same problems you had before cos you failed to do what you came here to do in the 1st place.
you kept here to EARN fullfillment. you can only earn fullfullment by being the creato of that fullfilment. if you use your own thoughts and your own behaviour and actions to cure SA you are responsibile for your fullfllment int he social area of your life cos YOU earnt it.

if you use dugs you have earned nothing. the drugs is doing the work. its bread of shame all over again. its getting a free lunch like when god gve our souls fullfillment

if you use drugs you will mask the problem for 75 years yes but next lifetime those problems will be back again.

if you you beat SA yourself now then next lifetime you will come back socialy perfect and you will have other problems to fix. you wont be born to shy parents, or you wont have these socially traumatic experiences in your childhood or you ownt be born with shy genes

why do you think some people are born with just so much fullfilment int he social area of their lives? that have prfect social skills, they have lotsof friends, sociallizing is just natural to them. its cos theyve already eart fullfilment in that area of their lives and they are here to fix other problem that they have. sometimes these problem are only minor as some people are almost at the perfect level
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
so basically, you have to change the automatic thought during the behavioral experiment, instead of in a nice closed off room with a therapist and you and the therapist are like:
"so we've identified the negative thought"
"yep, Ive now stopped thinking it"
"now if only you could stop it out there in a real situation"
"yep, that would be nice"
"yepperooo"
"yep indeedee"
"............."
".........."
"so....shouldnt we go out and try this in a real situation?"
"no, i dont leave this room...but at least your well trained to not be anxious when in this room"
"ok......but i dont live my life in this room"
"oh look at that! our times up, gimme my $160 bucks and get the *** out!"

so your better off doing your own cbt yourself during the behavioral experiment
Hahah, I found that dialogue funny!

Let me be clear because I'm concern that you might have misinterpreted it though I'm beginning to think you got it right. Probably an equally or even more effective way of countering your automatic thoughts is by trying out a new behavior that test it (behavioral experiment).

For instance, Dr. Richards (famous for his Overcoming Social Anxiety: Step by Step tape series) believed that when he went to the supermarket everyone scrutinized him. This would lead me to look down on the floor, avoiding people's eye contact. Dr. Richards then made a behavioral experiment (either consciously or intuitively) where he would look at the people at the supermarket to see if his automatic thought is true. Of course, no one looked at him at all thus dispelling his belief.
 

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CBT is definitely NOT for the birds. It helps us put our thoughts into perspective. It's like we go out and prove a lot of our thinking is wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
It depends on the person. Personally I don't think exposure behaviour is the only important thing. I did that for two years and I only got worse. In fact most people with SA are constantly exposed to social situations and yet their anxiety lingers for years or for their whole life. It's really a condition most people live with.
I think you're following the old habituation method when in fact, you need a more behavioral experiment. Yes, they expose themselves but they didn't identified their unrealistic beliefs nor try to challenge them with a new behavior. Social Anxiety Disorder is not only consisted of avoidance.

As for this psych blog - don't get over excited over one article. You really need to have 50 - 60 large scale studies all giving evidence that the cognitive component of cbt is a waste of time before you can conclude it's a waste of time.
Actually, I've read from two other sources that exposure therapy alone was enough. It wasn't this article alone. Plus, it isn't so much CBT itself that needs to get rid of, but more of the cognitive disputing techniques themselves.
 

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Nah cbt isn't totally worthless it's just not very effective if it's the only thing you use, it's more of an aid to be coupled with other techniques. I think it's the first step into getting the courage to try exposure too as if you have negative thoughts you think you'll fail before you even try.

I also think people shouldn't dismiss medication outright, that "all or nothing" thinking a lot of has is definately apparent in this thread either you are for using drugs the rest of your life or none at all. There needs to be a happy medium where you use the drugs as a crutch until the other techniques begin to work and you start getting better then you can stop them.

Some people might need to be on drugs for life but it depends on the severity of what you have and the decision should be entirely left to a professional.
 
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