[Diya]

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[Edwin]

I have to agree the mindset of pdocs in the Netherlands is kind of conservative. My pdoc refused to prescribe Prozac with my Wellbutrin, because he's afraid I might get seizures and doesn't think dopamine can be functionally differentiated from norepinephrine.

 

[euphoria]

This is a quote from doc "It's jsut your personality, you can't do really anything about it. " lololol

Yes, this is what doctors/psychiatrists told me for my schizoid personality disorder, and is completely untrue. The fact is they don't consider changing personalities to be their job, only to correct anxiety disorders, depression, etc.

You'll probably have to take it into your own hands unless you have co-occurring disorders like ADD which are treated with dopaminergic drugs that make you more outgoing. Here in the UK we don't even have Wellbutrin for depression. SSRI + mirtazapine is one of the best combinations I could get legally.

 

[jim_morrison]

What was the major goal of being put on selegeline? was it primarily to treat social anxiety, or a secondary disorder?

 

[robotaffliction]

ADD and SAD basically. It worked so well for both during the first couple of weeks, but it stopped working for SAD after the initial euphoria wore off. It gives me energy at 5mg and higher and I can concentrate better on things.

I tried an SSRI called Zoloft for 7 months before @ 150 mg. In most cases, SSRIs either cause inorgasmia or libido loss, but that was never the case with me. If anything, SSRI improved the quality of orgasms.

On the other hand, a dopaminergic MAOI like selegiline that is supposed to have a positive sexual impact completely destroyed my libido. I guess my brain is just weird like that.

well, selegiline tablets are only used off-label for depression and/or ADD, mainly because they don't work very consistently for a lot of people. MAO-B inhibition is great for treating parkinson's disease, but with the tablets you mainly just hit MAO-B (no A) and get a lot of weak amphetamine metabolites (L-amphetamines that are less effective than the normal D-amphetamines).

i'm not sure selegiline is really supposed to have a prosexual effect, definitely the dopamine reuptake inhibitors generally do (because when the dopamine gets fired, it acts longer), but increasing dopamine pretty much everywhere in the brain (including in the hypothalamus where it's a hormone and not a neurotransmitter, and may reduce the effect of orgasms) can do anything. there's a sort of push-pull between sexual excitement, dopamine and prolactin, and by increasing dopamine you may have killed one half of the feedback loop thus less of a rush of dopamine on excitement and less of a rush of prolactin on orgasm.

 

[jim_morrison]

ADD and SAD basically. It worked so well for both during the first couple of weeks, but it stopped working for SAD after the initial euphoria wore off. It gives me energy at 5mg and higher and I can concentrate better on things.

I tried an SSRI called Zoloft for 7 months before @ 150 mg. In most cases, SSRIs either cause inorgasmia or libido loss, but that was never the case with me. If anything, SSRI improved the quality of orgasms.

On the other hand, a dopaminergic MAOI like selegiline that is supposed to have a positive sexual impact completely destroyed my libido. I guess my brain is just weird like that.

I'm kind of suprised to hear that your taking selegiline for something other than parkinsons to be honest, but I guess since you suffer from both ADD and SAD your wanting something that hits dopamine, perhaps your better off with something like ritalin, or a combination of ritalin + an SSRI.

 

[jim_morrison]

You can't get Ritalin nor Adderall prescribed in my country where they treat ADD with nootropics because it's "safer on the long run". It's ridiculous. I tried wellbutrin before and it didn't do much, so I'm left with selegiline.

What dosage did you take of wellbutrin? my understanding is that it's commonly underdosed, due to being fairly unpotent.

 

[jim_morrison]

I think it's more prominent effects come out at 300 or so mg.

 

[soaringfalcon11]

I think it's more prominent effects come out at 300 or so mg.

I took 300 mg of SR for a week with 20 mg of Celexa. All it did for me was kill the anti-anxiety effects of the Celexa and increase my libido. Besides that, nothing, not even an energy boast.

It was originally meant to be prescribed at doses of 400 to 600 mg, but when the seizure rate at those doses was too high, they pulled it and re-released it with a max dose 300 mg.

I may mess around with it at higher doses just to see what happens.

 

[jim_morrison]

I think its way over rated as a dopaminergic med personally. But it seems to be the best that alot of people can get their hands on unfortunatly.

 

[beaches09]

Hey pretty cool. I did this recently for about 10 weeks. I was trialing in 30-60mg doses. It takes on a different feel at 30mg and every 10mg over. 20-25 did cause anxiousness and some irritability at times depending on events for me but as soon as I would pop past the 30 mark everything would smooth out. I could write paragraphs about the whole experience.

One thing about that article stating that high doses decrease tyrosine hydroxylase is that it says they were dosing rats at 10mg/kg. Correct me if I'm reading that wrong it does seem overkill but if that were the case that would basically be 500-1000mg for the average human.

 

[Medline]

One thing about that article stating that high doses decrease tyrosine hydroxylase is that it says they were dosing rats at 10mg/kg. Correct me if I'm reading that wrong it does seem overkill but if that were the case that would basically be 500-1000mg for the average human.

One can't make this calculation as rats tolerate much higher doses of most substances compared to their body weight than humans. You can look at the LD50 of many drugs from rat studies (the dose where half of them die) and realize that the same mg / kg dose would most likely kill 90-100% of human beings.

 

[beaches09]

Hey what's up man I thought so, that seemed extremely high and didn't sound right.

What do you think from info you have gathered? I wonder if 30-60mg dosing for humans then would cause problems with the tyrosine conversion. That gets me thinking what the difference between that and other MAOI's in regards to that would be then and why Selegiline would be singled out.

 

[Medline]

I will look into this.

 

[beaches09]

Cool Medline that will be awesome to hear what you find out.

That's interesting Diya. I wonder if you could be one of those people that just has an opposite effect in most things. You could possibly consider that in your strategy in trying to find a cocktail.

I was thinking of making a thread of the experience and detailed log report just for kicks. If I can get the chance. I've gotta say, I was very impressed by it. Especially when I started drinking protein shakes with it wow. The first 6 weeks it was very activating and wonderful I realized what it was like to feel so alive again in more than half a decade, but then things started getting weird. I took a tiny amount of mirtazapine as a test around that time so it's possible that had something to do with it. I finally figured for me things got better again and the best effect was achieved when I would take 40mg and then for 3 days take 10mg, and rotate like that continously. lol Either that or a steady 30mg every day.

I am still taking 10mg now have been for a week. One more week to go then I plan to add an SSRI to the mix and give that a try. Combined with protein shakes to boost neurotransmitter levels, and I'm going to get some huperzine-A and or maybe try small amounts of a nicotine patch for acetylcholine.

 

[jim_morrison]

What's the complete opposite to Mirtazapine? An agonist at 5-HT2A, 5-HT2C, and 5-HT3. I guess the closest I can get to that is an SSRI, but SSRIs didn't work for me.

well most potent 5-HT2A agonists are classed as hallucinogens ie LSD, magic mushrooms etc, however interestingly, some have experimenatlly been shown to reduce OCD (not something I'd recommend trying at home though).
However OCD symptom relief from LSD might be more suggestive of hallucinogen-induced 5-HT2A receptor down-regulation.
As for 5-HT2C receptors, both agonists and antagonists for that receptor type can produce and exacerbate symptoms of OCD, paradoxically.

ref: http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDoc1&ID=6318

 

[beaches09]

In my opinion it's reasonable to assume the negative effects you had on Mirtazapine were from the increase in NA. That would also explain the negative effect you experienced with Selegiline.

In my experience doses over 30mg for Mirtazapine caused aggression and irritability for the first few days and then subsided after a week.

I hear you say that benzos were the best thing for you. Without wanting to rely on those, or getting stims or maoi's, have you thought about giving Paxil a try? Of all the meds I've tried it was definitely the most anxiolytic, the complete opposite of Prozac and Zoloft. The lower doses anything under 30mg even helped me with concentration and focus tremendously. Over 40mg though had the opposite effect in that regard. I see you're on a mission to find the right thing for you, it couldn't hurt to give it a whirl.

I did something kind of cool the other day that I am still touching up when I get the chance and I'm finding it amusing. I think I will share the example in a thread a little bit later. I am finding it very helpful in looking at the different things I have been on and evaluating them, you guys might get a little kick out of trying it too.

 

[beaches09]

Go with your gut. If you are wanting Nardil the most and are able to obtain it then I am a person that will say just do it There's nothing wrong with going for what you want.

Just a note on the pax, anticholinergic properties are definitely a turn off but it was completely absent in my case as long as I stayed under 30mg. I don't remember if it was 10 or 20mg that I started off with, but I remember that whole first month I immediately went from doing absolutely nothing and sitting around, and not to sound lame but to playing online chess like 12 hours a day and becoming freakishly good as hell at it in a very short time. Just to give an example of the effects it had on my brain in playing a very strategical and analytical game. A few weeks later I got the best job of my life, got promoted continuously for superb performance, and had some of the best times of my life.

The withdrawal was physical and definitely noticeable but not unbearable by any means. When I was taking it I was working out at the gym all the time and I had gotten in pretty awesome shape. When I stopped taking it for about two weeks my entire body just shrivelled up like a raisin and I had lost all my strength. It's funny to say, because I would work out with other guys in the gym and we would compete against each other etc. And when this happened I walked in and the look on their face was pure astonishment. The physical difference were as if I previously had been taking taking steroids which I wasn't of course, and then completely stopped. lol. It was temporary though and went away pretty quickly. That was coming off of 40mg cold turkey after a year. The mental withdrawal was nothing, although I seamlessly transitioned to wellbutrin which probably picked up the slack.

 

[euphoria]

I guess my body is weird like that. I mean, I'm also the only person on board who found Mirtazapine extremely anxiogenic while it shouldn't be in the slightest. Mirtazapine amplified my social anxiety AND gave me insect phobia as a bonus.

I noticed that mirtazapine's weak [alpha-2] adrenergic effects disappear within a few weeks, as beaches09 indicated. The minor tachycardia and anxiogenic effect disappears along this time scale.

 

[Beggiatoa]

Selegiline also let me down. I had high hopes for it but it messed me up. Tyrosine, which previously worked so well for me, stopped working after I used deprenyl.

I'm into manganese now. It's a cofactor for the production of dopamine and I am having much luck with it. This means, virtually no SA.