Shame attacking and beyond... - Page 3 - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #41 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-03-2014, 01:41 AM
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I've wondered with shame attacking; how far should we go with trying to provoke shameful reactions from the public by acting weirdly, while not becoming too much of a "character" which is easier to hide behind. Although it may sound like I'm always playing a character, I'm making sure that it's just an exaggerated version, sometimes very exaggerated(!) version, of myself, but "different" enough to provoke a strange look, laugh or complete shunning from the public. The aim of these exercises in my view; is to treat other's opinions of you with complete indifference, thereby freeing yourself from the fear of being judged by others, which as a consequence stops you doing the things you want to do in everyday life. Therefore, in order to challenge this hang-up I have about what people think of me, I believe the most effective and time efficient strategy for myself, is to do what I'm doing, while upping the ante a bit each time. Interestingly, sometimes after I've done a shame attacking exercise, I like to go and interact with the public just as myself, like you suggested mps625, in order to monitor my feelings of anxiety, and whether they've decreased. For instance yesterday, after my shop antics, I went to a couple of pubs and chatted normally to people without any great feelings of nervousness. I hardly had any worry about walking into places on my own, or what people thought of me. So doing this type of thing afterwards can be a valuable evaluation of how your training is going. Thanks mps625 for your comment.
I was going to say something similar about shame attacking exercises.

1. You play a character and deliberately look and do foolish things in order to provoke reactions in order to realize that people's opinion of you don't really matter. But what about when you look foolish but were not planning on doing so and people react negatively and this might cause a different reaction inside of you because people are attacking the real you as opposed to the pretend you that is acting and doing silly things on purpose.

2. You are in control while shame attacking as opposed to when you do foolish things unintentionally and are not in control such as when in small talk and things get awkward or you blush or stammer and can't control it. For example. Whenever I trip on an uneven pavement I feel stupid and embarrassed. But if I were to do it on purpose just to see how others react I'm in a different mindset. Even if someone laughs I just think to myself that I did it on purpose so that means there isn't something wrong with me but if I tripped unintentionally and someone laughed I'd feel kinda humiliated (and this happend at school; I tripped and fell in front of 20 people while running and they all laughed).

3. These are people who don't know you and only see you once or a few times. What about doing this around people whom you often see and interact with and with people you want acceptance/approval from or want respect from. Doing silly things around them often enough will probably change their perception of you in a negative way. What about when you are not out shame attacking and just interacting with them in a friendly social setting. In the back of your mind you'll probably be thinking they think you're a bit of a nut and laughing behind your back. Might be ok if you don't mind not having much approval.

In conclusion. I think shame attacking is a powerful way to open up your mind and challenge beliefs and desensitize yourself to other people's opinions but if you aren't able to handle negative reactions it can backfire and lead to embarrassment to the point that you can't face the same people again.

When you feel vulnerable and your psychological defenses are failing the best defense mechanism is to be more trusting.
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post #42 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-03-2014, 03:17 AM Thread Starter
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Iíve never heard of shame attacking before, so reading this thread is really inspirational. I would never have the gall to do any of this stuff in public, at least not sober. For me itís often the little things, like making small talk, that are the most challenging. I really look forward to finding out what effect all this has on your anxiety.
I thought the exact same as you when I first heard about shame attacking; no way could I do that in public. But, with enough desire to change, and a simple plan, anyone can do this. In my opinion, it's just about picking a suitable first step. The most recent posts I've done are not suitable first steps for the majority of people! There's no way I could've done these type exercises at the start, in fact I was very nervous when I first started; racing heartbeat, shallow breaths and sweaty palms. I remember when I first took my shades off when I was holding up the umbrella in my gloves and jacket on a gloriously sunny day. The fact that people could see my eyes really unnerved me at first, so I just stood still and got used to the feeling, and it gradually went. Then I started walking about more, and by the end of that session, I was whistling, walking backwards and saying good morning to people looking directly into their eyes without the shades. So if you give yourself a chance to get used to something slowly, chances are, you'll get used to it.

Thanks for your comments.
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post #43 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-03-2014, 04:18 AM Thread Starter
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This has got to be one of the best threads I've ever read! And funniest too.
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I was going to say something similar about shame attacking exercises.

1. You play a character and deliberately look and do foolish things in order to provoke reactions in order to realize that people's opinion of you don't really matter. But what about when you look foolish but were not planning on doing so and people react negatively and this might cause a different reaction inside of you because people are attacking the real you as opposed to the pretend you that is acting and doing silly things on purpose.

2. You are in control while shame attacking as opposed to when you do foolish things unintentionally and are not in control such as when in small talk and things get awkward or you blush or stammer and can't control it. For example. Whenever I trip on an uneven pavement I feel stupid and embarrassed. But if I were to do it on purpose just to see how others react I'm in a different mindset. Even if someone laughs I just think to myself that I did it on purpose so that means there isn't something wrong with me but if I tripped unintentionally and someone laughed I'd feel kinda humiliated (and this happend at school; I tripped and fell in front of 20 people while running and they all laughed).

3. These are people who don't know you and only see you once or a few times. What about doing this around people whom you often see and interact with and with people you want acceptance/approval from or want respect from. Doing silly things around them often enough will probably change their perception of you in a negative way. What about when you are not out shame attacking and just interacting with them in a friendly social setting. In the back of your mind you'll probably be thinking they think you're a bit of a nut and laughing behind your back. Might be ok if you don't mind not having much approval.

In conclusion. I think shame attacking is a powerful way to open up your mind and challenge beliefs and desensitize yourself to other people's opinions but if you aren't able to handle negative reactions it can backfire and lead to embarrassment to the point that you can't face the same people again.
Thanks, good to hear you're enjoying it. It's not intentionally meant to be funny, however even I find myself laughing during these exercises. Sometimes it's so difficult to keep a straight face, but I'm ok at deadpan humour, so that helps a bit.

In response to your insightful points:

1. Like I mentioned before, I think it's important that during these exercises, you're only exaggerating the most extreme forms of your own character, in order to get used to people disapproving or laughing at you. Although, I dare to say, that even if you were playing a completely different character, you'd still gain some benefit.

2. All I can say is what I've found as a result of doing this; I'm much less concerned about other's opinions of myself in normal life. For instance, a couple of times recently, I've verbally tripped over my words when saying bye. Previously I'd be obsessing about how stupid that must've sounded to the other person(s), but since doing shame attacking, I hardly gave it a 2nd thought; I just knew I did it, and that it doesn't matter!

3. This is a good point, but it also opens up a very large subject on how most of us wrongly place our happiness/mental tranquility in things we can't control, such as our reputation with others. Personally, I believe that all we "should" care about, is to get as close as we can to fulfilling our potential as human beings before we die. You have to decide what this is; but if you ask me, I subscribe to the stoics beliefs on the subject. Therefore, what's most important to you? Worrying about what others think of you and changing your actions to suit them, or learning to fearlessly approach things in life which you have no control over.

Thanks for your post and comments about the thread.
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post #44 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-04-2014, 02:26 AM Thread Starter
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I had a date yesterday, but managed to fit in some shame attacking beforehand. I stopped off at another supermarket and did the usual antics. I'm still surprised at how many people actually take me seriously when I ask for weird things, but then again, why wouldn't they!? I suppose they just think I'm weird, but quite frankly, who cares :-). An example; yesterday there was a guy dressed in his supermarket uniform, doing what looked to be like a stock check. It was obvious to anyone that he worked there...so I said, "excuse me, do you work here?", I think I saw a quick facial expression of annoyance at me interrupting him, and from asking an obvious question. Then I asked if they stocked my favourite fictional snack - "bone shaped crisps that taste of sardines". Anyway, he took this question seriously, and took me to his colleague where I had to describe it again. Amazingly his colleague thought he knew the item I was talking about! So all three of us went briskly walking over to the crisp aisle where he thought these fictional snacks were; it turns out, he was thinking of fish and chips flavoured crisps in the shape of fish, so he wasn't far out! Anyway, they were both very helpful, and I had a relatively normal chat with this 2nd colleague for a few mins afterwards. The public I encounter are the same, usually very friendly. I upped the ante a bit yesterday with my Christmas singing; there was a woman looking at some wines, and rather than just sing near her, I actually sang to her, "Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way, oh what fun it is to have, on a....". She looked at me and laughed nervously, then I said, "Oh I wish it was Christmas everyday!", then walked off. I also did some very loud blowing of my nose into a handkerchief, really as loud and comical as I could do - that got a bit of attention from a woman, then I said, "Ship coming in!".

The date went fine, there weren't too many awkward silences. I don't really get severe anxiety on a one to one basis, but I noticed that I had some nerves beforehand, but they were probably less than they'd normally be. Nerves in my opinion are a result of wishing to control something out of our control, i.e. - my date's approval of me. Therefore, something to work on in the future in these situations, is to liberate myself by not seeking any approval, rather just focus on getting in the flow of the present moment. That way, our true selves come out, and whatever the result, it's fate at work running through us. These are all just my opinions and viewpoints - I don't expect everyone to agree with my analysis, but equally I'm not stopping anyone starting their own thread about their experiences and beliefs. Peace.
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post #45 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-04-2014, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, so today I wanted a change of venue, but by the time I was ready to go out, it was pouring it down with rain. So, for a change, I went to another supermarket today! It might be my last time in this particular one for a while; I'll explain later.

Anyway, I walked in and picked up some tomatoes in a packet and started shaking them, as if checking for ripeness - some double takes. Then I started counting the slices in the bread packets, saying to a woman she should pick this packet because there's more slices in it. Obviously they were exactly the same, she humoured me. Had a long normal-ish chat with the woman at the fish counter, was asking her various questions about fish, which I actually did want to know the answers to. I saw a pretty young girl working there stacking shelves, went and had a little bit of a flirt with her - actually I asked her out casually, but she said no, however I was making her laugh at least. Too old for her!

Saw an older guy in the frozen food aisle and said I'm practicing singing in public, and asked to sing a song to him. He said no, but I sang it anyway while he was walking away, and yes, it was Bing Crosby's White Christmas. He even joined in for a line! Next I found myself in the pet food aisle; there I suggested various alcoholic drinks to have while eating the dog food I saw on the shelves. They were confused but laughed generally. Had a few more random chats, then picked up a watermelon to buy. Deciding to take it up a notch, I shouted a few times in the store, "melon for a pound, melon for a pound". People looked at me and carried on shopping. After that I went and paid for my drink and melon, walked out, and started really shouting this time; "roll up, roll up, melon for a pound!". A couple of women who were talking started laughing...I did some more shouting, reducing the price a bit each time. Some guy said to me, "don't give up your day job mate.", while smiling, obviously knowing I wasn't a genuine vendor. I did it a couple more times, walked off and got in my car. Anyway, I was driving away, back past the entrance where I just was, and I saw security walking up and down as if they were looking for someone! I think that someone was me! Needless to say, I didn't hang around. Enjoyable exercise because I pushed my boundaries, nice rush after too.
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post #46 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-04-2014, 04:15 PM
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Hey man you are very interesting
Following your topic...
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post #47 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-05-2014, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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Hey man you are very interesting
Following your topic...
Thanks buddy, glad you're reading.
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post #48 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-05-2014, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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So today I had some family commitments, but I needed to get a few beers for the fridge, so I thought I'd do some quick shenanigans in a "new" supermarket on my way home. Walked across the car park and shouted "hello" loudly a few times - people looked around, and some looked straight at me bemused. Got in the store; sang Jingle Bells to a woman in the chilled meats aisle, she laughed and moved away. Then I saw a trendy looking bloke looking at something, I glided over to his right shoulder and started singing White Christmas to him - a full on serenade to this chap! He was generally amused but obviously confused. I finished singing and walked away backwards while giving him the thumbs up. I actually saw him later on, we had a bit of chat, I said I was practicing my singing voice in public, he said he wants to join in next time. Chilled out guy! A couple more random chats, walking backwards and acting weird at the till. I got out to the car park and started shouting, "two coronas for £10!", I did this a few times varying the pricing. Some ignored me, some shook their heads saying no, and one guy told me he doesn't drink.

Today's exercise was more of an afterthought; just to keep in the rythmn and tick off today. But, nevertheless, if you told me 2 weeks ago I'd be singing White Christmas to a bloke of my age, in a busy supermarket, I wouldn't have believed you.
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post #49 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-05-2014, 09:03 PM
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Hey, your stuff has inspired me to go to a party last night and ask some questions that I normally wouldn't, such as "where did you get that necklace? It's the same one from the (horror) movie, Rosemary's Baby."

And today I'm wearing this odd combination of orange socks with shorts. Whenever I worry that I'm doing is going to make people disapprove of me, I just think "Shame Attack!" and it makes it alright.

I'm not at your level, yet, but it's good for me. Tons of props for doing this.
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post #50 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 02:14 AM Thread Starter
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Hey, your stuff has inspired me to go to a party last night and ask some questions that I normally wouldn't, such as "where did you get that necklace? It's the same one from the (horror) movie, Rosemary's Baby."

And today I'm wearing this odd combination of orange socks with shorts. Whenever I worry that I'm doing is going to make people disapprove of me, I just think "Shame Attack!" and it makes it alright.

I'm not at your level, yet, but it's good for me. Tons of props for doing this.
It's great to hear you're giving this thing another try. Just slowly build up as you go, and you'll be doing all kinds of stuff you never imagined possible. I like what you've done so far! Feel free to post your stuff up on here...
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post #51 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Day off today folks, be back on it tomorrow. Peace.
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post #52 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 02:49 PM
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Quote: Today I had family visiting, so I couldn't really vanish off without informing them of what I was doing, and I haven't decided who I'm going to tell as of yet about this. So I've done 4 days in a row, day off today, resume tomorrow. I do think it's given me more confidence already, but I might have to do it for a month or more, to really destroy my SA. By the way, it's actually quite enjoyable once you get into playing the "fool"! End Quote.

Ok so this is the part I'm interested in. Its one thing to act crazy in weird clothes infront of total strangers, but would u, for example, go to a school reunion like that, or a big family gathering? Do u not think about people driving past who know u, will recognise u, who will ask your family about how u are, or tell them they seen u? Do u ever worry or care about people in the future recognising u, and when u are chatting to them they are actually keeping u at arms length thinking 'that's that weirdo..' Do u live in a small town, r u not worried about being known as the weirdo, even after u stop the shame excersise, n this reputation following u around?
I know all of the above would happen if I did that here so if I was to decide to do this, I would have to be ok and comfortable in the knowledge that this may happen. I can see how it would be easier and maybe liberating to do this somewhere nobody knows u, or on holidays or somewhere, but would u do it around people who u know u will see again n again?
I'm just curious, has it really worked, do u actually not care about any of the above if it where to happen? Would u be ok with these people never knowing u where doing a shame excersise, n if asked, just telling them u did it cause u thought it would be fun or u just wanted to. I know what u believe etc, but my question is simply, would u do it without caring?

I have left the building.
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post #53 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 02:58 PM
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Two sentences max please, low attention span.
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post #54 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 03:11 PM
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I was going to say something similar about shame attacking exercises.

1. You play a character and deliberately look and do foolish things in order to provoke reactions in order to realize that people's opinion of you don't really matter. But what about when you look foolish but were not planning on doing so and people react negatively and this might cause a different reaction inside of you because people are attacking the real you as opposed to the pretend you that is acting and doing silly things on purpose.

2. You are in control while shame attacking as opposed to when you do foolish things unintentionally and are not in control such as when in small talk and things get awkward or you blush or stammer and can't control it. For example. Whenever I trip on an uneven pavement I feel stupid and embarrassed. But if I were to do it on purpose just to see how others react I'm in a different mindset. Even if someone laughs I just think to myself that I did it on purpose so that means there isn't something wrong with me but if I tripped unintentionally and someone laughed I'd feel kinda humiliated (and this happend at school; I tripped and fell in front of 20 people while running and they all laughed).

3. These are people who don't know you and only see you once or a few times. What about doing this around people whom you often see and interact with and with people you want acceptance/approval from or want respect from. Doing silly things around them often enough will probably change their perception of you in a negative way. What about when you are not out shame attacking and just interacting with them in a friendly social setting. In the back of your mind you'll probably be thinking they think you're a bit of a nut and laughing behind your back. Might be ok if you don't mind not having much approval.

In conclusion. I think shame attacking is a powerful way to open up your mind and challenge beliefs and desensitize yourself to other people's opinions but if you aren't able to handle negative reactions it can backfire and lead to embarrassment to the point that you can't face the same people again.
I did not see any of this before I posted the above.

I have left the building.
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post #55 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote: Today I had family visiting, so I couldn't really vanish off without informing them of what I was doing, and I haven't decided who I'm going to tell as of yet about this. So I've done 4 days in a row, day off today, resume tomorrow. I do think it's given me more confidence already, but I might have to do it for a month or more, to really destroy my SA. By the way, it's actually quite enjoyable once you get into playing the "fool"! End Quote.

Ok so this is the part I'm interested in. Its one thing to act crazy in weird clothes infront of total strangers, but would u, for example, go to a school reunion like that, or a big family gathering? Do u not think about people driving past who know u, will recognise u, who will ask your family about how u are, or tell them they seen u? Do u ever worry or care about people in the future recognising u, and when u are chatting to them they are actually keeping u at arms length, thinking u are an unstable person (as they saw u doing this stuff..) Do u live in a small town, r u not worried about being known as the weirdo, even after u stop the shame excersise, n this reputation following u around?
I know all of the above would happen if I did that here.
I'm just curious, has it really worked, do u actually not care about any of the above if it where to happen? Would u be ok with these people never knowing u where doing a shame excersise, n if asked, just telling them u did it cause u thought it would be fun or u just wanted to.
I completely understand what you're saying, and at the start (first few days) I was worried about people seeing me that I knew, or maybe even bumping into people I knew when walking past them in the street and having to have a conversation with them. In response to your question; I'm from a smallish town yes. However, I realised a while ago, with the help of stoic philosophy, that quite a bit of my anxiety in life has originated from these very same points you bring up - worrying about what other people think of me, while trying to control my reputation, which is essentially out of my control. Once I realised this, it became a case of just simply weighing up which I cared more about; being seen acting a bit weird and having people talk about me behind my back (so what anyway!? They're judging from a wrong supposition), or attempting to conquer my irrational fears in order to live the life I want. Not really much of a choice in my view.
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post #56 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 04:03 PM
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Your thread title and your stories are motivating me a lot...
I also started shame attack personally in social anxiety situation...
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post #57 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 04:34 PM
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I completely understand what you're saying, and at the start (first few days) I was worried about people seeing me that I knew, or maybe even bumping into people I knew when walking past them in the street and having to have a conversation with them. In response to your question; I'm from a smallish town yes. However, I realised a while ago, with the help of stoic philosophy, that quite a bit of my anxiety in life has originated from these very same points you bring up - worrying about what other people think of me, while trying to control my reputation, which is essentially out of my control. Once I realised this, it became a case of just simply weighing up which I cared more about; being seen acting a bit weird and having people talk about me behind my back (so what anyway!? They're judging from a wrong supposition), or attempting to conquer my irrational fears in order to live the life I want. Not really much of a choice in my view.

So the answer is yes, u would do it around family and friends without explination?

Maybe that's one of your next tasks so...

Great u feel so free. :-)

I have left the building.
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post #58 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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Your thread title and your stories are motivating me a lot...
I also started shame attack personally in social anxiety situation...
I'm glad they're helping. Good luck!
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post #59 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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So the answer is yes, u would do it around family and friends without explination?

Maybe that's one of your next tasks so...

Great u feel so free. :-)
Funnily enough, I've already done some backwards walking in front of direct family, just to see their reaction - they laughed and said I was weird. But, as for dressing up and really being strange at a family gathering without explanation, that's beyond me just now! I'd love to hear from anyone who's done something similar, and what the reactions were. Personally though, I don't think we need to put ourselves through such extreme circumstances as caterpillar is suggesting, in fact, this is quite an irresponsible suggestion to someone you don't know. In my opinion, it's enough to do these things in public with "the chance" of being seen by friends or acquaintances; this is plenty extreme enough to get the benefits of shame attacking.
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post #60 of 304 (permalink) Old 07-06-2014, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for your posts caterpillar.
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