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post #21 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-10-2018, 06:56 PM
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Mushrooms are easy to grow and legal to buy the spores (in most places). I highly recommend as I've had a bad trip on acid, but not on shrooms.

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generally from what i have researched, i think the majority of people will say that mushrooms are more likely to cause a bad trip than acid and that mushrooms are more harsh on the consciousness than acid. Not to say that mushrooms are more intense, a lot of people say acid is more intense, but acid is often recommended for a first trip for someone who has never tried psychedelics before. Because acid is one of those things that is harder to go wrong with than mushrooms, in low doses it often creates rather positive experiences more likely than not and it stimulates the dopamine in the brain which makes you directly feel good, rather than with shrooms where you indirectly derive the feeling of rewardance from the experience that you are having. But that doesnt mean that acid is better than shrooms, it just means that a lot of people seem to say that it is a more soft experience for a beginner when done in the right doses. Mushrooms are often said to be more confusing than acid trips. If you've seen psychedsubstance on youtube, he will recommend trying acid rather than shrooms on your first psychedelic trip. But just make sure you test it, because you dont want to get some fake stuff like 25i-NBOM or whatever it is called, that stuff has been known to kill people who took only 2 hits of it.
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post #22 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-10-2018, 10:13 PM
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[B]Subjective experience is the experience of a current set of environmental stimulation interpreted in light of a subjects remembered life experiences. So the same thing happening in the environment can have different meanings for different subjects. I just saw an example of this on the news. Jeb Bush said that he was glad to be off of the campaign trail ,and at home with his wonderful children. He said it just as a compliment to his children. But Eric and Donald Trump Jr, trump's kids, took the same comment as an affront to their father, that Jeb Bush was implying that Trump enjoyed being away from HIS kids. Each interpreted the same words in accord with what was on their minds. It could be that you have an learned a self defeating interpretation of something in an innocuous set of environmental stimulus, that blows the thing up in importance and makes it seem like a problem which must be solved right now, and this causes you to continuously cycle through the same bad scenario, leading to an exhausted depressive state.
Hmm. Very intriguing. Sorry to de-rail the thread, but I wonder what this will entail for hypothetical endeavors such as mind-uploading or consciousness transfer operations, or rather, subjective experience transfer / upload. Apparently, it might not be possible, as there are objections such as the likes of the transfer being just a mere copy, and not the actual subjective experience field. But, couldn't there be a kind of tethered dual entity; like it's split, but connected in some way? Perhaps not. Or perhaps, a kind of mini-fractal seed, but you feed it the pattern of experience (alterations in brain structure, neural patternings), or something along those lines? Hmm.... Or maybe a kind of mechanism; where you have the brain connected to a virtual copy mechanism, but embue it with a virtual realm, where one can experience a world akin to that of current reality, and trick the brain into thinking that it's actually within the virtual realm, and somehow have the virtual copy mechanism loop a virtual copy within the virtual realm. Not sure if that'd work, as the "in-between" steps would depend upon the initial consciousness being copied, and when that's gone, it's lights out, I suppose?

I was also thinking of a mechanism akin to entanglement transfer or something along those lines. However, Quantum consciousness theory or ORCH OR; the idea that consciousness is "quantum", and the origins of consciousness stem from the microtubules in neurons as opposed to connections between them, has been puportedly written off; as it is seemingly inconsistent, and is apparently at odds with "established" science; though, there could be something to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orches...tive_reduction
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post #23 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-11-2018, 01:45 AM
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Without having read the OP, I can tell you that mushrooms have been a GREAT help to me. Beautiful stuff!!! Do not trust it too much though because it can lead you astray. You may start believing in things that don't have any logical basis in reality.

It's always good if you are a very logical thinker. If you are a INFP or INFJ personality type, then forget it. You'll probably end up convincing yourself something ridiculous. I've seen this before. You have to have a strong mind to benefit from this stuff or else you'll just end up a hippy who believes everything that "FEELS" right.

It is a great tool. I've even used the stuff to have conversations with a god-like consciousness in my head. It told me what was right and wrong about my life and what I should do. It was amazing. Take it with caution and go into it with some questions you intend to ask yourself.
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post #24 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-11-2018, 02:03 AM
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post #25 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-11-2018, 09:13 AM
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Without having read the OP, I can tell you that mushrooms have been a GREAT help to me. Beautiful stuff!!! Do not trust it too much though because it can lead you astray. You may start believing in things that don't have any logical basis in reality.

It's always good if you are a very logical thinker. If you are a INFP or INFJ personality type, then forget it. You'll probably end up convincing yourself something ridiculous. I've seen this before. You have to have a strong mind to benefit from this stuff or else you'll just end up a hippy who believes everything that "FEELS" right.

It is a great tool. I've even used the stuff to have conversations with a god-like consciousness in my head. It told me what was right and wrong about my life and what I should do. It was amazing. Take it with caution and go into it with some questions you intend to ask yourself.
Hmm... On the border for T/F; but probably heavily leaning towards F; so an INFP (at least I think). In a way, I do lack "grounding" or whatever, and have a kind of disdain for it as well that is not inherently logical.

I'd probably start out with lower dosages or whatever, and use it sparingly. And then, I suppose incorporate a guided inquiry session to wrap the experience inside of as well.

Btw, are you an INTP / ISTP or INTJ?
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post #26 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 07:16 AM
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Interesting ideas, @GeomTech

But I think that copying a consciousness is a much greater undertaking than creating a conscious AI. I believe that connectivity is different in each individual, because each person has a different set of experience, occurring in different sequences. For example, person A, being an ancient Viking, might attribute thunder to Thor pounding with his hammer, while person B, being a modern scientist, might attribute thunder to friction in the atmosphere and electrostatic discharge.

Can you see how the organization of the information would be different in the two brains? For the Viking, thunder is understood in terms of a previously learned concept we might call God. For the scientist, thunder is understood in terms of the previously learned concepts of atmosphere, static, electricity, electrostatic discharge and such. Any copy machine would have to replicate a differently organized mass of connected neurons. There are a hundred billion neurons in a human brain, each with thousands of connections. Each pathway leading to an understanding of thunder would take a different path through each brain, because each person's understanding would have been achieved by a different route.

Also, the copy would have to emulate features down to the molecular level, because the number of receptors in cell walls determines the strength of the connection. And I don't think that copying brains would be enough. I believe that body sensors are necessary to feel emotions. Also, gut microbes communicate with the human brain via electro-chemicals. It seems to me that you'd have to replicate a whole body.

I haven't heard that Orch-Or has been discarded to the trash heap, but the idea just doesn't do anything for me. I think that the whole idea came from Roger Penrose's musings about the double slit experiment and the idea that consciousness collapses the wave function. When Hameroff told him about the segregated environment inside cellular microtubules, he theorized that it could support a wave function which would be collapsed by quantum gravity (at least one experiment I know of confirmed that the micro tubular environment could allow for a wave function to be maintained) . But I never thought that the idea held much explanatory power. For instance, Penrose even ends up appealing to Plato's world of perfect forms in Shadows of the Mind. If you are going to appeal to something as ethereal as that, you might as well opt for pan-psychism. Penrose's idea might tickle a Physicist's innards with a theoretical explanation of wave collapse, but there is no cohesive story of how consciousness takes in sensory signals and generates thoughts, memories, and emotions.

Hofstadter, on the other hand, addresses the whole taco in a simple process. At the bottom of consciousness, per Hofstadter, lies sensory stimulation. We perceive differences in the sensory simulation. We group together similar sensory stimulation patterns via analogy to come up with categories. We slice, dice, and compare previously learned categories to current environmental stimulus, to get meaning out of the current environmental stimulus. Meaning comes by way of analogy to remembered categories. For example, you might say that making the leap from the sensory perceived Golden Retriever, Boston Bull, and Beagle, to the non-physical, mind-internal category of 'DOG' is the most rudimentary function of consciousness. Dog would become subsumed into category 'ANIMALS' and animals into category 'living things'.

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post #27 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 07:28 AM
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It is a great tool. I've even used the stuff to have conversations with a god-like consciousness in my head. It told me what was right and wrong about my life and what I should do. It was amazing. Take it with caution and go into it with some questions you intend to ask yourself.
Can you discern any noticeable effects of psychedelics on the sensitivity of your vision, hearing, feel, taste, and smell? I am wondering if what has been called a 'breakdown of the self', is associated with turning attention away from personal thoughts and memories, towards raw current sensory stimulus, with minimal consideration of past personal experience. I think that 'self' is composed of integrated past personal experience, and if you just pay attention to the 'now', without reference to past experience, that you might lose your sense of 'self'. If you are just synthesizing meaning based on current sensory experience, I can almost see how visual and audible hallucinations might be realized, in being attentive to current sensory input, without comparing it to similar past sensory experience.

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post #28 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 02:42 AM
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Welcome back @Tuan Jie !


Thanks for the info on the book. Have you tried any of this stuff yet? It seems to me that you wouldn't want to do it alone, but under the guidance of someone very familiar with it; like a therapist of something.

I am fascinated by the literature that talks of psychedelics stripping away one's sense of self. I can't really understand what that would be like and so it sounds scary. Here's something I read on "shroomery" regarding what they call ego-death. It makes it sound like it involves looking behind the public mask that we wear, and seeing what we really are. I can't quite grasp that. I think I can already see behind my public mask. What do you think about the subject?

"3. Ego Death: What exactly is ego death? This could be debated until the end of time, and usually the confusion will come when people who have truly not experienced it argue with those who have. And in many ways, each individual experiences things differently, hence although we both experience loss of ego, that person who we lost was different. But.. lets explain what ego-death is at the least:

Ego death is the absence of who you have built yourself to be. It is the splitting of the mind when it first begins to happen, and the ability to truly LOOK at who you normally are, without rationalizing your flaws which you might normally do. It can be one of the most beautiful experiences in your life, but even more, if understood and dealt with properly, it can be more then just a single experience, but a way of life. But furthermore, it will draw out extreme hurt and pain because you will have uncovered a mask that the "real you" normally wears, and is so comfortable in wearing. It strips away your security of who you are, and it will be very clear to you that there are some serious issues with who you are that need to be dealt with. It is the feeling that you are speaking with your own mind, or watching the person you usually are on a movie screen, and a person with the opinion of only wanting the best in this world sits watching. But.. Let me make this very clear: There are very REAL positive and negative effects of ego death. These effects are the reason I am writing this report.

5. Negative effects of Ego Death
It can be very confusing. It can cause a person who lacks balance in their life, or someone who is already very emotionally unstable to see the pain too quickly, and experience feelings which they are not yet ready to deal with in such volume.

It will unmask your securities, and unlock doors in your mind that hold back your fears from surfacing.

It will show you a different person, because you will be truly stepping out of your usual shoes and looking at the person who usually stands in them. This can be scary and for some who are so-tied to their ego for protection, insanely mind-shattering (overload).

It can make you disgusted or sick with the way you act. It can make you feel so awkward about who you are, that you don't feel as if you can continue living the way you are.

It can do many things psychologically, and change your thought patterns towards a very negative and volatile state.

Positive Effects of Ego Death:

You can feel extreme feelings in volume, and if prepared for this, it can be a euphoria of beauty, and a feeling that every moment in time can be wonderful.

It will unlock doors deep within, and allow you to get constructive criticizm that is of the most real honesty. You will see parts of you that you will want to change, and can be extremely happy to realize these things, knowing that you can make yourself a better person.

It will open up emotions that you usually are unable to feel, and allow you to touch yourself towards ideas and wants that usually the ego holds you back from. It can make you want to be a better person, and give you ideas of how you can accomplish that.

It will change the way you look at the world, maybe only temporarily, and it will undeniably break away a small part of the ego from who you will be when you return from this state. This will happen because people who have an ego which they have made COMPLETELY who they are, in the way that they are unchanging will not be able to experience ego-death in its wholeness. Their ego is attached to strongly, and they will need to experience much change in their life, before that can be achieved (to my knowledge and observations.)

It will remind you of feelings you once forgot, and show you feelings you have never felt before. This can be anything though, as each of us forgets different things, although all equally important. Some of us forget how to love, or begin beliving that such a thing is not possible because of the pain/hurt we have pushed within.. Ego death is one of those mind openers, and reminders.

----- All of these explanations are important, but most importantly is not what you experience while you sit in the seat of ego-death, but HOW you change yourself with what you see. "
Yep this is exactly how I started feeling after my treatment with Prozac and even Zoloft! For me it seems that reaching a sense of mania really breaks through the ego entirely than any other high. Don't all psychoactive drugs induce a sense of mania or something stronger, well yes, it does. I wonder if other select few who got manic from Antidepressants experienced this similar ego death as I have. Amen brother! Did you see the episode S1:E1 around 52:00 of Sense8 on Netflix where that one hot girl goes with those 2 guys go over to visit a druggie friend and he coaxes her into trying this sexy psychoactive drug? The way he explains the freedom and otherworldly release of all pain is so beautiful, it reminds me so much of my treatment with Prozac than anything else, maybe weed a little. Ahh just really sexy like giving in to sex or pouring out all your feelings and thoughts to a psychiatrist.

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post #29 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 05:31 AM
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I am wondering if what has been called a 'breakdown of the self', is associated with turning attention away from personal thoughts and memories, towards raw current sensory stimulus, with minimal consideration of past personal experience. I think that 'self' is composed of integrated past personal experience, and if you just pay attention to the 'now', without reference to past experience, that you might lose your sense of 'self'. If you are just synthesizing meaning based on current sensory experience, I can almost see how visual and audible hallucinations might be realized, in being attentive to current sensory input, without comparing it to similar past sensory experience.
Not really related to the hallucination part and not sure if you're talking about in general or if you mean an extreme case as in an ego death or something, but i believe that, just like you said, the "self is composed of integrated past personal experience". I have severe depersonalization/derealization disorder, probably almost bordering on psychosis or something, and i can definately attest to your theory. Whenever i focus my attention on current sensory stimuli/thoughts, it's like i am slowly slipping deeper and deeper into depersonalization/derealization. Because my mind is distracted from my conscious sense of self and my attention is turned away from my past, so therefore i lose my sense of who i am; almost as if my sense of who i am is sort of cognitively concluded from the moment in which my attention is turned to.

And vice versa: focusing my attention on personal thoughts/memories sort of tends to regain/maintain my sense of self. It is as if the sense of self is an entirely or predominantly conscious, rather than subconscious, construct. I notice that when i live in the moment too much and forget my past/problems etc, i slip deeper into a sort of semi-psychotic state in which i have a harder time trying to remember my past and in trying to maintain my sense of self.
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post #30 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 08:13 AM
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Yep this is exactly how I started feeling after my treatment with Prozac and even Zoloft! For me it seems that reaching a sense of mania really breaks through the ego entirely than any other high. Don't all psychoactive drugs induce a sense of mania or something stronger, well yes, it does. I wonder if other select few who got manic from Antidepressants experienced this similar ego death as I have. Amen brother!
Interesting. I never heard of Prozac causing mania, but it is listed as a possible side effect, as is hypo-mania. It makes me wonder how the same drug can have opposite effects on different people.
I have been on a small dose of Prozac for 15 years. I feel that, for me anyway, its effect is to take the edge off of those worries which keep repeating in my head against my will. Prozac helps me to get out of the repeating loop and make progress. Like the "did I lock the door?" worry, which persists even after I've checked it 3 times. It doesn't happen with Prozac. Rollercoasters even became fun because I could get my mind off of the scenario of the train jumping the track and plummeting to earth. I think that those types of anxieties are born of an Obsessive Compulsive sort of thing. So I think that's where Prozac helped me; not so much directly with depression, but to escape the Obsessive Compulsions which tend to dwell on unpleasant things which lead to depression.

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post #31 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 08:36 AM
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Interesting. I never heard of Prozac causing mania, but it is listed as a possible side effect, as is hypo-mania. It makes me wonder how the same drug can have opposite effects on different people.
I have been on a small dose of Prozac for 15 years. I feel that, for me anyway, its effect is to take the edge off of those worries which keep repeating in my head against my will. Prozac helps me to get out of the repeating loop and make progress. Like the "did I lock the door?" worry, which persists even after I've checked it 3 times. It doesn't happen with Prozac. Rollercoasters even became fun because I could get my mind off of the scenario of the train jumping the track and plummeting to earth. I think that those types of anxieties are born of an Obsessive Compulsive sort of thing. So I think that's where Prozac helped me; not so much directly with depression, but to escape the Obsessive Compulsions which tend to dwell on unpleasant things which lead to depression.
Yeah, Prozac acts in different ways on different chemicals people have in their heads. The Prozac did also help me with OCD and also agoraphobia. You're right about that one on the OCD, I wasn't able to dwell or get stuck in this OCD which led to isolation and depression, I was free for once in my life, I stepped out of that continuous OCD loop and began to make progress. I experienced the same thing with airplanes that you experienced with rollercoasters. No anticipation or excessive worrying whatsoever. Maybe I attributed that freedom to feeling high but hypomania is a side effect of Prozac since it is the most stimulating SSRI-that is one major part of it to look at when people ask if you have bipolar. Like is it really bipolar mania if the Prozac is already stimulating in itself and has a side effect of hypomania?

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post #32 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 08:55 AM
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Not really related to the hallucination part and not sure if you're talking about in general or if you mean an extreme case as in an ego death or something, but i believe that, just like you said, the "self is composed of integrated past personal experience". I have severe depersonalization/derealization disorder, probably almost bordering on psychosis or something, and i can definately attest to your theory. Whenever i focus my attention on current sensory stimuli/thoughts, it's like i am slowly slipping deeper and deeper into depersonalization/derealization. Because my mind is distracted from my conscious sense of self and my attention is turned away from my past, so therefore i lose my sense of who i am; almost as if my sense of who i am is sort of cognitively concluded from the moment in which my attention is turned to.

And vice versa: focusing my attention on personal thoughts/memories sort of tends to regain/maintain my sense of self. It is as if the sense of self is an entirely or predominantly conscious, rather than subconscious, construct. I notice that when i live in the moment too much and forget my past/problems etc, i slip deeper into a sort of semi-psychotic state in which i have a harder time trying to remember my past and in trying to maintain my sense of self.
Well put, @sad1231234 . What you say supports the idea that what we call 'self' involves a current sensory stimulus, which awakens a group of remembered similar past experiences, which give meaning to the present sensory experience. I believe that these brain structures are formed analogically. To remember something, we have to associate it with something which we already know. That is analogy. As the decades pass, analogy is stacked upon analogy, building ever higher levels of abstraction.

For example, if we see 3 animals, a Poodle, a Beagle, and a Collie, we will notice certain similarities in them, via the sensory neurons which fire when we see, hear, or smell them. Noticing that similarity leads to a higher level of abstraction, and we invent an abstract symbol 'DOG', to denote all the similarities we see in these 3 animals. We might also notice cats and hamsters, and lump them in with the concept 'DOG' to create a higher level abstraction 'DOMESTIC ANIMALS'. Then we might notice that not all animals live in our homes, to further abstract up to ANIMAL KINGDOM. Noticing that all living things are not animals, we might make an even higher level of abstraction and call it "LIFE ON EARTH". Can you see how, as we head up to higher levels of abstraction that more and more information is evoked by bringing the higher level abstract concepts (DOG.. DOMESTIC... etc) into consciousness. I think that the basic analogies at the bottom of the hierarchy remain buried in the subs-conscious, but that the chain of ever more abstract analogies extends into consciousness. That's what gives thinking the spiritual feel. The magical quality of thinking seems to come from some unknows 'soul' construct, but it is really just meaning bubbling up from the subconscious bottom of an analogy stack.

So, of course, if you willfully refuse to let a current sensory event evoke any memories, but just concentrate on feeling the present sensory stimuli, you will lose your sense of self. Because your self is a figment of your past. And we know that the past is not currently real, but only an abstract concept in the mind. "Now" is the only thing real that we ever experience.

So if we take that to be the case, is it good to lose our sense of the 'self'? Buddhists say that the 'self' is the source of all suffering.

Or is it bad to lose the self, because relating the future to the past is how joyful experiences like anticipation come about?

I think, maybe modulating the sense of self to some middle ground might be optimal. But how do you know what level of self-realization optimal? Use meditation to train your mind to focus on the present, but not to totally block out past experience or desire evoked by consciously recalling past experience? It's fun stuff to think about.

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post #33 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-22-2018, 01:56 PM
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Like is it really bipolar mania if the Prozac is already stimulating in itself and has a side effect of hypomania?
I have read that they are unsure about prozac causing hypermania in bipolar people, since bipolar itself has its own hypermania, interspersed with depression.

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post #34 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 12:00 AM
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Well put, @sad1231234 . What you say supports the idea that what we call 'self' involves a current sensory stimulus, which awakens a group of remembered similar past experiences, which give meaning to the present sensory experience. I believe that these brain structures are formed analogically. To remember something, we have to associate it with something which we already know. That is analogy. As the decades pass, analogy is stacked upon analogy, building ever higher levels of abstraction.

For example, if we see 3 animals, a Poodle, a Beagle, and a Collie, we will notice certain similarities in them, via the sensory neurons which fire when we see, hear, or smell them. Noticing that similarity leads to a higher level of abstraction, and we invent an abstract symbol 'DOG', to denote all the similarities we see in these 3 animals. We might also notice cats and hamsters, and lump them in with the concept 'DOG' to create a higher level abstraction 'DOMESTIC ANIMALS'. Then we might notice that not all animals live in our homes, to further abstract up to ANIMAL KINGDOM. Noticing that all living things are not animals, we might make an even higher level of abstraction and call it "LIFE ON EARTH". Can you see how, as we head up to higher levels of abstraction that more and more information is evoked by bringing the higher level abstract concepts (DOG.. DOMESTIC... etc) into consciousness. I think that the basic analogies at the bottom of the hierarchy remain buried in the subs-conscious, but that the chain of ever more abstract analogies extends into consciousness. That's what gives thinking the spiritual feel. The magical quality of thinking seems to come from some unknows 'soul' construct, but it is really just meaning bubbling up from the subconscious bottom of an analogy stack.

So, of course, if you willfully refuse to let a current sensory event evoke any memories, but just concentrate on feeling the present sensory stimuli, you will lose your sense of self. Because your self is a figment of your past. And we know that the past is not currently real, but only an abstract concept in the mind. "Now" is the only thing real that we ever experience.

So if we take that to be the case, is it good to lose our sense of the 'self'? Buddhists say that the 'self' is the source of all suffering.

Or is it bad to lose the self, because relating the future to the past is how joyful experiences like anticipation come about?

I think, maybe modulating the sense of self to some middle ground might be optimal. But how do you know what level of self-realization optimal? Use meditation to train your mind to focus on the present, but not to totally block out past experience or desire evoked by consciously recalling past experience? It's fun stuff to think about.
Yeah it is a really interesting point you have, that we could just be composed so to speak of a bunch of analogies and abstract concepts. When i first read this post of yours it pretty much blew my mind lol. Because when we analyze the psychological constructs that compose our entire conscious being, we can see how fake it all is and how our minds love to trick us into living this illusion in which our consciousness is some kind of magical, immortal thing. When really consciousness is extremely subjective. But i guess the mind sort of tricks us into this illusion in which we are the centre of the universe, for the sake of our mental wellbeing. But what i wonder about these different analogies that our psyche may be composed of is, what part of the brain is the "soul", by that i mean i wonder what part of the psyche is the one that is flicking through these different subconscious analogies. Obviously our subconscious is like a non-conscious machine or computer, but i wonder what part of us activates that computer. Like a person flicking through tv channels, the tv is like the subconscious and the channels are like the conscious mind but who is the person with the remote. Unless perhaps we are all just computers living in a deterministic universe.

Thats a very good point you have there and i have been using it to overcome my derealization ever since i read this post of yours a few days ago lol. But unfortunately for me, i dont really have a substantial amount of memories to evoke whenever i go outside due to the fact that i've been stuck at home all my life. So when i go outside, it is like everything is completely new for me and rather than evoking old memories, it creates new ones that are blurry and confusing. When i'm at home though i do get memories that do reinforce my sense of self, but in a way that i dont like. I'm not a big fan of remembering my past lol. Yeah that is one thing that i cant wrap my head around, the fact that as real as any moment is, it will some say be an abstract concept that we will never be able to prove have happened. Like how can we prove our past memories happened and prove that we werent abducted by aliens or something lol. And yet at a point in time before those moments transitioned into memories, those memories were the "now". Unless of course consciousness is much more subjective and malleable than we think and we could just be some brains floating in jars in an experiment, experiencing one big mind-eff in which we in our limited conscious states percieve as reality. Who knows lol.

I think by the way our brains are wired, it is best to keep our sense of self. We are mortal conscious beings who are mentally made up of psychological constructs, and we cant change that or fight that, not currently anyway. We were wired by evolution or whatnot to be this way and to derive the maximum positive experience from our natural state of mind(in the aspect of sense of self at least). Thats what i am recently struggling to do if i understood your last few sentences correctly. I am having a dilemma where i am struggling to find that middle ground between my sense of self and between the likely reality that i am just giving in to the possible illusion of "consciousness".
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post #35 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 03:03 AM
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Some very interesting posts in this thread. I'm still trying to work through them.
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post #36 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 10:09 AM
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I don't think I agree with the idea that pain only happens if you have a memory of it. If that were true then it wouldn't have hurt when I broke my leg because I had never experienced it before.

There is a first for everything, and often times the first experience is the most painful because you haven't developed a tolerance for the pain.

I like the rest though.
I still think that pain is based in memory, for a number of reasons.

Look at the way that we describe different types of pain. It is always in analogy to some previous experience that we have had.

1. sharp pain - describes a very localized pain, which is like the point of a needle or knife or other sharp thing, which affects a very localized set of receptors

2. aching/dull pain - usually describes a pain which is not very localized, like "my back aches". Aches are usually felt in areas of the body where sensors are not very numerous, so it is hard to localize the exact spot in which the pain occurs. Sharp pain would be felt in the finger tips where sensors are very numerous. An ache would be felt in the back, where you might have a single sensor in a skin area the size of a playing card.

3. shocking pain - describes short duration and fierce intensity. It is like the sudden and quick pain you experience when you get electrical shock.

4. burning/searing - describes a pain that is of medium intensity and which feels like a thermal burn. Perhaps it feels analogical to a burn because the sensors that recognize thermal heat or cold are connected to the same neuron in the somatosensory cortex, which recognizes pain. Also, burning pain seems to be shallow or close to the surface of the skin.

5. throbbing pain - describes a type of pain in which the heartbeat is felt because of a tight stretching of the skin, like the tight covering of a drum. Like sound waves emanate from striking the surface of a drum, the pain emanates from the extra pressure of the blood, in the course of a heartbeat.

6. phantom pain - when a person loses a limb, they'll often still experience an ache in the non-existent limb . The reason for this is that the neurons in the cortex that used to be connected to the limb have been repurposed, but memory has not caught up with where these neurons now receive their input. So a neuron which used to be connected to a sensor in the big toe is now connected to a sensor in the knee. So an ache in the knee, being connected to a sensor that used to receive information from the big toe, now receives information from the knee, which our memories erroneously pair with the big toe.

So, if we have never experienced a broken leg, but we now have a fracture, we will feel the pain by analogy in accordance with 1 - 6, above. If we are a neonate with no previous experience, we will not react to pain because we have no analogical information to compare it to. I would think that in such a situation, pain would be experienced akin to seeing something or hearing something in the environment. It would be something out there in the environment, but the neonate would not connect the pain to itself. It would just be a sensation received from the environment. It would not be experienced by a 'self', because the sense of 'self' has not developed in a neonate, because it has had too few experiences.

Pain can also be willfully modulated by directing one's attention elsewhere. The video below talks about the importance of the attention of a 'self' as being necessary to experience pain (and what is 'self' but integrated memory?). If we can willfully direct our attention elsewhere (meditation helps learn this), we do not feel the pain. The video also mentions the joy of new love as an analgesic and talks about experiments where new lovers were shown to have less sensitivity to pain.

That's why I say that we LEARN to feel pain and that feeling pain depends on our memory and the connections between different areas of the brain (buckets of memory). Pain is sensory meaning wrought of analogy to remembered feelings.


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post #37 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 11:09 AM
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Yeah it is a really interesting point you have, that we could just be composed so to speak of a bunch of analogies and abstract concepts. When i first read this post of yours it pretty much blew my mind lol. Because when we analyze the psychological constructs that compose our entire conscious being, we can see how fake it all is and how our minds love to trick us into living this illusion in which our consciousness is some kind of magical, immortal thing. When really consciousness is extremely subjective. But i guess the mind sort of tricks us into this illusion in which we are the centre of the universe, for the sake of our mental wellbeing. But what i wonder about these different analogies that our psyche may be composed of is, what part of the brain is the "soul", by that i mean i wonder what part of the psyche is the one that is flicking through these different subconscious analogies. Obviously our subconscious is like a non-conscious machine or computer, but i wonder what part of us activates that computer. Like a person flicking through tv channels, the tv is like the subconscious and the channels are like the conscious mind but who is the person with the remote. Unless perhaps we are all just computers living in a deterministic universe.
Imagine that the environment is a confusing tangle of string and that the 'self' is a winch sort of device which gathers the string into a roll. The 'self' is like the roll of string, in that it is a roll of remembered environmental experience where each minute section of the string is intimately connected with all previous minute sections of string, so the part of the string just going onto the roll, which equates to present experience, has access to all previous minute sections of string already on the roll(memories).

"What part of the psyche is the one flicking through these different subconscious analogies?" Neurons in the brain's sensory cortices are connected to sensors throughout the body. Some subset of these cortical neurons is activated with each sensory experience. Memories are activated (flicked through) as a result of the similarity of the cortical neuron activation pattern of present experience, to that of past experiences.



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Originally Posted by sad1231234 View Post
Thats a very good point you have there and i have been using it to overcome my derealization ever since i read this post of yours a few days ago lol. But unfortunately for me, i dont really have a
substantial amount of memories to evoke whenever i go outside due to the fact that i've been stuck at home all my life. So when i go outside, it is like everything is completely new for me and rather than evoking old memories, it creates new ones that are blurry and confusing. When i'm at home though i do get memories that do reinforce my sense of self, but in a way that i dont like. I'm not a big fan of remembering my past lol. Yeah that is one thing that i cant wrap my head around, the fact that as real as any moment is, it will some say be an abstract concept that we will never be able to prove have happened. Like how can we prove our past memories happened and prove that we werent abducted by aliens or something lol. And yet at a point in time before those moments transitioned into memories, those memories were the "now". Unless of course consciousness is much more subjective and malleable than we think and we could just be some brains floating in jars in an experiment, experiencing one big mind-eff in which we in our limited conscious states percieve as reality. Who knows lol.
I think that we become more conscious of present experience, the more that we can relate it to past experience. If a current experience can not be analogized to anything that we experienced in the past, it has no meaning to us. We are not conscious of it. I think that our consciousness grows with experience, throughout our lifetimes. Life becomes more meaningful in direct proportion to the number of environmental experiences which we have had.

As to brains in vats; we can't know. What we call 'ourselves' is locked up in a dark box of bone; our skulls. No light sound smell taste or anything can get inside the box. All that can penetrate our skulls are electrical potentials emanating from sense organs throughout our bodies. Our experience and what we know as reality is based on these integrated electrical readings from our body sensors. We can not directly know anything about the outside world. We can only know what our brains imagine, based on the electrical impulses which reach it. Everything is subjective.


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I think by the way our brains are wired, it is best to keep our sense of self. We are mortal conscious beings who are mentally made up of psychological constructs, and we cant change that or fight that, not currently anyway. We were wired by evolution or whatnot to be this way and to derive the maximum positive experience from our natural state of mind(in the aspect of sense of self at least). Thats what i am recently struggling to do if i understood your last few sentences correctly. I am having a dilemma where i am struggling to find that middle ground between my sense of self and between the likely reality that i am just giving in to the possible illusion of "consciousness".
But 'self' is the cause of everything evil; hate, jealousy, lying...in short everything bad is connected with self (everything we see as good as well). Self impedes cooperation. What might humanity achieve as a whole, were it not burdened down by all of these 'selves' each out to seek their own welfare instead of the welfare of humanity as a whole. Our brains are made up of 100 billion individual neurons. Our species is made up of 7 or 8 billion individual 'selves'. What could a human organism of 8 billion people/neurons achieve by all trying to achieve the good of the community via perfect cooperation? Does the future of evolution involve a 'humanity being' where all 8 billion brains work together for the good of the 'humanity-being?'

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post #38 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 11:19 AM
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I still think that pain is based in memory, for a number of reasons.

Look at the way that we describe different types of pain. It is always in analogy to some previous experience that we have had.

1. sharp pain - describes a very localized pain, which is like the point of a needle or knife or other sharp thing, which affects a very localized set of receptors

2. aching/dull pain - usually describes a pain which is not very localized, like "my back aches". Aches are usually felt in areas of the body where sensors are not very numerous, so it is hard to localize the exact spot in which the pain occurs. Sharp pain would be felt in the finger tips where sensors are very numerous. An ache would be felt in the back, where you might have a single sensor in a skin area the size of a playing card.

3. shocking pain - describes short duration and fierce intensity. It is like the sudden and quick pain you experience when you get electrical shock.

4. burning/searing - describes a pain that is of medium intensity and which feels like a thermal burn. Perhaps it feels analogical to a burn because the sensors that recognize thermal heat or cold are connected to the same neuron in the somatosensory cortex, which recognizes pain. Also, burning pain seems to be shallow or close to the surface of the skin.

5. throbbing pain - describes a type of pain in which the heartbeat is felt because of a tight stretching of the skin, like the tight covering of a drum. Like sound waves emanate from striking the surface of a drum, the pain emanates from the extra pressure of the blood, in the course of a heartbeat.

6. phantom pain - when a person loses a limb, they'll often still experience an ache in the non-existent limb . The reason for this is that the neurons in the cortex that used to be connected to the limb have been repurposed, but memory has not caught up with where these neurons now receive their input. So a neuron which used to be connected to a sensor in the big toe is now connected to a sensor in the knee. So an ache in the knee, being connected to a sensor that used to receive information from the big toe, now receives information from the knee, which our memories erroneously pair with the big toe.

So, if we have never experienced a broken leg, but we now have a fracture, we will feel the pain by analogy in accordance with 1 - 6, above. If we are a neonate with no previous experience, we will not react to pain because we have no analogical information to compare it to. I would think that in such a situation, pain would be experienced akin to seeing something or hearing something in the environment. It would be something out there in the environment, but the neonate would not connect the pain to itself. It would just be a sensation received from the environment. It would not be experienced by a 'self', because the sense of 'self' has not developed in a neonate, because it has had too few experiences.

Pain can also be willfully modulated by directing one's attention elsewhere. The video below talks about the importance of the attention of a 'self' as being necessary to experience pain (and what is 'self' but integrated memory?). If we can willfully direct our attention elsewhere (meditation helps learn this), we do not feel the pain. The video also mentions the joy of new love as an analgesic and talks about experiments where new lovers were shown to have less sensitivity to pain.

That's why I say that we LEARN to feel pain and that feeling pain depends on our memory and the connections between different areas of the brain (buckets of memory). Pain is sensory meaning wrought of analogy to remembered feelings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otUVzK4hToM
I guess I still don't understand why you assume that memory has anything to do with whether or not you feel pain when you break a bone.

The feeling of pain is the result of neurons firing and chemicals being released in the brain. The same with pleasure. After it happens you remember it, but that has no effect on how it feels at the time. Morphine does, but memory is past tense.
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post #39 of 116 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 07:47 PM
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Interesting. I never heard of Prozac causing mania, but it is listed as a possible side effect, as is hypo-mania. It makes me wonder how the same drug can have opposite effects on different people.
I have been on a small dose of Prozac for 15 years. I feel that, for me anyway, its effect is to take the edge off of those worries which keep repeating in my head against my will. Prozac helps me to get out of the repeating loop and make progress. Like the "did I lock the door?" worry, which persists even after I've checked it 3 times. It doesn't happen with Prozac. Rollercoasters even became fun because I could get my mind off of the scenario of the train jumping the track and plummeting to earth. I think that those types of anxieties are born of an Obsessive Compulsive sort of thing. So I think that's where Prozac helped me; not so much directly with depression, but to escape the Obsessive Compulsions which tend to dwell on unpleasant things which lead to depression.
So you're saying there is a difference between the term side effect and the way I paraphrased it as blaming Prozac for causing mania? Well that's something, now I need to look into the term side effect to see that it might mean that it can awaken mania in someone who is already susceptible not literally that it would cause mania in someone who isn't. Well **** **** ****!

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post #40 of 116 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 06:52 PM
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Interesting. I never heard of Prozac causing mania, but it is listed as a possible side effect, as is hypo-mania. It makes me wonder how the same drug can have opposite effects on different people.
I have been on a small dose of Prozac for 15 years. I feel that, for me anyway, its effect is to take the edge off of those worries which keep repeating in my head against my will. Prozac helps me to get out of the repeating loop and make progress. Like the "did I lock the door?" worry, which persists even after I've checked it 3 times. It doesn't happen with Prozac. Rollercoasters even became fun because I could get my mind off of the scenario of the train jumping the track and plummeting to earth. I think that those types of anxieties are born of an Obsessive Compulsive sort of thing. So I think that's where Prozac helped me; not so much directly with depression, but to escape the Obsessive Compulsions which tend to dwell on unpleasant things which lead to depression.
Yes there's articles talking about antidepressant induced mania which is exactly what happened in my situation. So you're depressed and they give you an antidepressant, from there you can go manic and then you'll have to take anti-psychotics. It happens. I didn't know I was susceptible for it and I didn't know I was bipolar because I was just depressed in the past. I went crazy with Prozac just because of the mania it induced. And an anti-psychotic is just that, to prevent symptoms of psychosis that you can get from antidepressants if you're susceptible. I don't believe that crap, what I believe is that I became bipolar/manic because of this antidepressant-induced mania.

http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.co...induced-mania/
https://ssristories.org/9-out-of-10-...doctor-speaks/

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