I Don't Trust People - Social Anxiety Forum
 
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-09-2016, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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I Don't Trust People


http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/...inner-chi.html

Right now, I'm at stage one, where I don't trust myself, well, but others. I can't believe others are willing to help me watch my back when I face rejection by my family, and I really want to trust in such support. I haven't reached anger, but I'm trying to get there. To "forgive" is to say I was a doormat, and deserved, nay, deserve--contempt, and I daresay, I do not. Just watch my back.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 06:24 AM
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I don't trust people either. Maybe it is better to be alone than be around people who will use and abuse me whatever way they can. But in daring to BE and FEEL okay being alone, then some good things happen. Some people will pick up that energy and relationships will take form.

In being okay being alone, we maybe have more confidence in saying "no".
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noitart View Post
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/...inner-chi.html

Right now, I'm at stage one, where I don't trust myself, well, but others. I can't believe others are willing to help me watch my back when I face rejection by my family, and I really want to trust in such support. I haven't reached anger, but I'm trying to get there. To "forgive" is to say I was a doormat, and deserved, nay, deserve--contempt, and I daresay, I do not. Just watch my back.
I have problems with trust too. What do you think is the cause? I suppose there is a reason having to do with betrayed trust, but maybe I was a baby when that happened.

I guess there's no way to figure out what caused it, so there's no way to fix it.

Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
(Mick Jagger)
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 11-24-2016, 08:12 AM
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mistrust and abuse schema.



I don't trust people neither my family. or myself. its a lifetrap

All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence and than success is sure," Mark Twain

-------------------------------------------------------
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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I don't trust people either. Maybe it is better to be alone than be around people who will use and abuse me whatever way they can. But in daring to BE and FEEL okay being alone, then some good things happen. Some people will pick up that energy and relationships will take form.

In being okay being alone, we maybe have more confidence in saying "no".
I walked away, or I should say, avoided, a family get-together, today. I felt like relief; I felt able to walk away, and not addicted to help, for the first time, in ages. I wish I had a support network, but I did this of my own, and felt as refreshening as pine scent.

I love my family, and wanted to be with them, but I had no social supports. None helped me confront in a way honoring to myself and others, so I broke paralysis, and retreated. I was unable to set boundaries, so I created them, in absentia.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 07:50 AM
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Ok, quick post about this, as something occurred to me the other day which might be useful to someone.

So, lets say you are designing an experiment to test how trustworthy people are. You get a random sample of people, but only get say 10 people. Unfortunately in that group you get a bunch of thieves and so the experiment indicates that people are horribly untrustworthy. Obviously, given the sample size you can't draw any conclusions about people in general from this.

Unfortunately though, we don't tend to apply this in our daily lives, because we don't frame things as an experiment, but nonetheless our brains constantly make these kinds of assumptions, and learns these kinds of things (and we aren't even aware of it). Realistically we don't have a large enough sample size to make solid generalised reliable opinions about people. We get unlucky and end up being forced to interact with someone who really isn't good for us, often for many years and if we are really unlucky its a family member.

We learn (subconsciously) that people aren't to be trusted and that they might mock us socially, and so on. And this learning is correct, its absolutely correct, some people are like this, and its a perfectly rational response, given the experience.

But, it isn't necessarily representative of people in general, because of the limited sample size. That isn't to say its incorrect, its just that you can't know its correct for the whole population. It was correct for the people we interacted with, but that is all. But it slips though because we don't look at it in the same way we would look at experiment. Our brains just make these kinds of assumptions without us even noticing. It's how we are built.

So, what's the difference between a SA person and a non SA person? Quite possibly to a large degree the non SA person just lucked out and got the good small sample of people. They got good parents, they didn't get bullied, they had a good support network, "people are generally nice". A SA person likely got a bunch of people mocking their interactions, possibly lousy parenting etc "people are horrible".

A possible solution then, is to test the hypothesis, making sure the sample size is large enough
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-11-2016, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Rejecting my family, I hate to say, was the best thing I did, in years. I feel calmer, and more in control...I may have hurt family members, but I at least feel I have options. I still feel numb, and I continue to tear at my support network, but that's because I don't find traction. I don't trust others can watch my back, but I want that.

That said, my confidence has risen. and I don't feel really bad--just numb, and unvalidated.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 09:56 PM Thread Starter
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Saw an NVC therapist, today...it was good. And, I was wondering, about chelation...
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 12:01 AM
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"The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them." - Ernest Hemingway

Learning to let go is the hardest thing, but it's the only way...

“You were born with wings, why prefer to crawl through life?” ― Jalaluddin Rumi
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 12:48 AM
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I really like a lot of things Bradshaw has to say. I watched a workshop he did on PBS years ago. He really gave me a lot to think about wrt healing, and my inner child that endured all that abuse from my mom years ago when I was a little kid. Through years, and I do mean years of therapy, thousands of hours of it, and a whole lot of family therapy I finally managed to forgive my abuser fifteen years ago, not long after my oldest daughter was born.

Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. I have never, ever once left any of my children alone in a room with my mom and I never will. My parents having my children over for sleepovers without me there has absolutely always been out of the question. I'd be more than happy to get into specifics, but to sum it all up I just do not trust her, and I have very valid, very good reasons to not trust her. And...ultimately I had to learn that forgiving my mom was sort of a gift I gave to myself. It wasn't for her. I remember several years later, long after I forgave her, she actually confronted me about the abuse. You have to understand my mom has been abusing, mixing alcohol and narcotics and some street drugs, and painkillers since before I could walk and talk, and she's still doing it today, forty six years later. She is a toxic human being and I think she has some sociopathic tendencies...and yeah that's very difficult for me to say about my own mom but it's true. Therapist after therapist has pointed that out to me. So...keeping that in mind....when she confronted me about the abuse several years ago she actually apologized...I mean, she said the words but they were as empty and without feeling as someone talking about the weather. And she actually had a smirk on her face when she did it. So....forgiveness wasn't for her, it was for me. It was a gift I gave myself so I could stop letting the resentment and hate eat me alive from the inside out. So I could move on.

The only other thing I'd add about my experience with all this is that I would really encourage anyone who is a survivor of abuse and is thinking about getting into regression therapy....I would really advise against doing that. Based on my personal experience you can end up digging up a lot of things that, when all is said and done, you will wish had stayed forgotten and buried in your subconscious. I personally regret getting into regression therapy.

I remember Bradshaw talking about the seven steps years ago. And they make perfect sense to me now just as they did then. I think one of the hardest steps for me was trust and validation and I suspect it is for a lot of survivors of abuse. The thing is when you're two and three and four years old the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world, so to speak. It was burned into my brain that I was a bad kid. Two and three year olds of course are not bad kids. But it took me forever to relearn what my abuser, what my mom had taught me for years at that young of an age. I think you really have to almost reinvent who you are, in a way. People have a difficult time breaking small, annoying habits...like as an example...some people have a difficult time showing up for appointments or classes on time. Some people have a really difficult time staying off their phones when it's really distracting or not appropriate. Now...imagine trying to break a much, much bigger habit, something that's literally ingrained into who you are, your personality, at the core. Something you were taught by your abuser when you were very, very young, day in and day out....imagine that they reinforced over and over again that you are a worthless human being, you are not worth them spending any time with you or worth their attention, imagine being physically beaten at that age because your abuser, your parent was always high on something and couldn't think straight, and was emotionally, themselves a child. And I'm not talking about being spanked, or whipped with a belt by her, I'm talking about being slapped over and over and over again, and being punched, and kicked, having bruises, getting a black eye on several occasions when she got too out of control. All of that is damn near impossible to unlearn, and in some ways I'm still trying, and that's why it's taken me literally thousands of hours of therapy just to come as far as I have. And I'm nowhere near any kind of finish line, ffs, there's really no such thing wrt that.

Anyway I'm going to stop now because this is a lot longer than I intended. I just wanted to share the things about your post and the links you shared that resonated most with me right now. Thanks for sharing that, man. If anything, reading through Bradshaw's steps again really kind of leaves me feeling hopeless and very, very sad in a way for the survivors of abuse that have no idea how to start healing. Or how to start trusting again, and I really believe a lot of it comes down to trust issues for almost everyone. I know for a fact it does for a friend I met last year on this site. And I'm sure it does for almost every user here, in some way or another.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 05:55 AM
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Humans cannot be trusted. Almost every individual has an ulterior motive, and they will do whatever they can to rank up in this primate troop that they call "society". This is especially evident in a workplace environment, where people will often betray each other by spreading rumors just so they can stand a better chance at being promoted to a higher position which pays a better salary. Humans are consumed by many of the Seven Deadly Sins that they commit on a daily basis, so it is not uncommon for them to behave in this manner.

I believe that betraying the trust of another is one of the worst possible things one can do in their life. It is unforgivable, or it should be unforgivable, but with the teachings of our society it is required to forgive the wretched individual who resorted to such a cowardly act so that you, as an honest and caring person, will not be dragged down by hate and revenge, while the treacherous scum in question continues living his/her life as normal, suffering no consequences whatsoever. That is why you should always have plans in place to deal with such individuals in a non-lethal manner. The goal here is to gain as much information on everyone you choose to confide in, within reason of course. Only information that can be used to harm you should be kept track of, and every bit of sensitive information you reveal to others must come at a price, they will then pay for this information by revealing things about themselves which are equal to or greater than the classification level of the sh*t you just revealed to them. With such a method there is a high probability that confidentiality will be maintained, and if it isn't maintained, and if the individual then chooses to betray you, you will then have the means to destroy him/her completely. But be warned, such information must never be used for the purpose of blackmailing someone into submission or ranking up in the world, we do not want to stoop down to such levels, we are better than that.

The emotions experienced by people are too volatile for them to be trustworthy. We as a species haven't evolved to a stage of such loyalty. There is no need to make an effort to fully trust someone, in fact it is ill-advised because it puts you in a very vulnerable position. Trusting someone fully is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute and expecting your loved ones to save you because they promised that they wouldn't allow anything bad to happen to you. It's ridiculous. When we evolve, so will our ability to trust one another, but until that time comes you should maintain a level of paranoia which isn't self-destructive to your being.


"Knowledge and awareness are vague, and perhaps better called illusions."

"We do not know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realize what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?"

"Those who forgive themselves, and are able to accept their true nature... they are the strong ones."

- Itachi Uchiha

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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 06:27 AM
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@InfamousD I agree, somewhat. I'd just add that I think that if you don't fully trust at some point then in my experience you'll never really give yourself to someone....serious, long term relationships with girlfriends are the first thing that comes to mind for me. Or....my marriage that lasted 18 years. And yeah, that marriage ended because she cheated on me, and I could've avoided all the hurt and pain that came from that if I'd never trusted her. But what would we have had? A casual friendship with each other, with sex and trust and intimacy as sort of an afterthought? I don't know how you can have a serious LTR and really give yourself, and grow with someone without going all in.

It doesn't mean you're an idiot about it, lol, it doesn't mean you throw yourself from the plane without a parachute, so to speak. But it does mean you leave yourself somewhat vulnerable. How would you go about forming a relationship or growing with someone in an intimate way (not just sexual, but intimate, in all ways) without making yourself vulnerable? How do you stay guarded and closed off and untrusting and make that happen? What do your really have, if you're honest with yourself? Trust is everything in a relationship imo, nothing else is really possible imo without it....unless you just want a friends with benefit type thing, and even then there has to be a lot of trust involved. At the most basic, the most simplistic level....at some point if you want a serious relationship then you have to sort of make your intentions known, or at least show interest. It should be in very subtle ways imo, and you should have a really good feeling about her wanting the same things, but your not a mind reader and neither is she. So....you sort of have to make a move at some point, you know? Otherwise how is it, how is anything, going to ever take off? And doing that means you have to be vulnerable in some ways. You don't throw yourself off the plane, you are somewhat subtle about it, but there is still vulnerability there.

When things got serious with the crush I had from this site (who I'm still friends with, btw)....there was a lot of risk involved. I made myself vulnerable and so did she....I mean, we flirted a lot on this site, then started talking, then exchanged pics, then met irl, then did it again, spending entire days with each other 12, 15 hours at a time. That would never have happened without some risk and vulnerability, for both of us. And it didn't work out, but we're still friends.

If I take zero risk, if I never make myself vulnerable, I can absolutely promise you that I will never date again, never have another gf again and never have sex again. Women don't, of course, fall from heaven and land naked in your lap and beg you to take them home and *** them and marry them and raise kids with them and live happily ever after lol. It takes a lot of persistence and sometimes I think you have to be pretty thick skinned and learn how to handle a little rejection. I mean, unless you're one of those 1% of guys who has everything, looks, wealth, charm, charisma, super intelligence, power....and you just have women flocking to you. Guys like that do exist but they're really one in a million. And I'd be willing to bet even guys like that have to open up and take risk to have any real substantive relationships.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 12:19 PM
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@AllTheSame - I was mostly referring to people in general when I said humans cannot be trusted, not necessarily those with whom you are intimate with, but they're in the same category so I might as well share my opinion about them while I'm at it.

Many people have second lives which are completely unknown to their partners. For instance, someone may be part of a secret government agency and they're not allowed to tell anyone, or someone with a weird fetish might go out in secrecy every once in a while to get their kink on, and not to mention that there are even people who have another lover, or even other children in some foreign country, and their second lover is completely oblivious to it. Somehow these people make it work. I'm not saying you should cheat on your lover and keep it a secret, just that if it doesn't concern him/her, then there is no need for them to know. The trick is to only share what is needed, no more, but maybe a little less if it allows. This all in strategy will leave you beaten and broke in no time, but I guess it can't be helped because, you know... love!

Yes, love will make you the greatest gullible fool that ever lived. The set of chemicals released in the brain when someone is in love will leave them wide open to suggestion and also makes it almost impossible for them to distrust the person they are in love with. This is a very dangerous state of mind. Defenses become non-existent, logical thinking flies out the window, irrational behavior takes over, you basically become a mindless zombie. But once you wrestle back control you need to analyze the situation and find ways in which to acquire the necessary ammunition to use when your lover decides to play you for a fool. It is still possible to form a long term relationship in this way. Leaving yourself completely vulnerable by trusting someone too much can be fatal.

You can take risks and you can make yourself vulnerable, just don't do so without a contingency plan in place. If someone tries to destroy you out of greed, lust or whatever they're consumed by, you should prepare for it well in advance and crush them when the time comes.


"Knowledge and awareness are vague, and perhaps better called illusions."

"We do not know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realize what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?"

"Those who forgive themselves, and are able to accept their true nature... they are the strong ones."

- Itachi Uchiha

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 12:35 PM
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@AllTheSame - So you don't approve of my methods for managing trust, that's okay, I admit it was a bit over the top and clearly a very improper way to live life, but just think for a moment about all the stories you've read or heard about concerning betrayal and I'm sure you can understand my reasoning.

One story that comes to mind is that of Amanda Todd. I only just recently found out about it myself even though it happened quite a while back(What can I say? I live in a cave), but it still managed to make me sick nonetheless. She trusted that individual, and in the end it costed her. A sincere effort to form a relationship with another human being turned into an endless nightmare of constant abuse. And lets not forget about how those kids treated her when they saw those pictures. Damn them, damn them all. They will suffer eternally when their time on this earth comes to an end. It's sh*t like this that gets me all worked up, but to be honest I have seen worse.

And what about the tragic stories of innocent children being kidnapped, never to be seen from again. They were raised to be trusting and carefree, never to look over their shoulder because the world is a fun and magical place that would do them no harm. They trusted in their parents to protect them, they trusted in law enforcement to keep the bad guys off the streets, but most of all they trusted in an imaginary being with divine powers to watch over them at all times because they were good little angels.

We do not live in a utopia where everyone is happy and all forms of evil have been banished into the dark abyss. People are controlled by their emotions and these emotions can be manipulated very easily by others. There are those out there whose sole purpose is to cause pain and suffering, and they will take advantage of all the flaws in your psyche to do just that. Preparation and strategic planning is vital to survival in this cesspit of a world that we were born into. If you absolutely have to trust someone then do so in a responsible manner. The guard must never be fully lowered, defenses must be multi-layered and impenetrable while also being flexible at the same time, and the acquisition of basic offensive skills is a necessity. No matter which way you look at it, trust is capable of devouring one's soul, but don't allow it to.


"Knowledge and awareness are vague, and perhaps better called illusions."

"We do not know what kind of people we truly are until the moment before our deaths. As death comes to embrace you, you will realize what you are. That's what death is, don't you think?"

"Those who forgive themselves, and are able to accept their true nature... they are the strong ones."

- Itachi Uchiha

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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 12:42 PM
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Cool

Threat


is what everyone is

competition? of all sorts.

Social warfare. win/lose/hate

Let's say: it's just really complicated.

Nothing straightforward!

any age. any calling / profession / expertise... pick a fight
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-14-2016, 12:56 PM
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It's not paranoia if they're really after you
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 12:22 AM
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I wish I knew where to look it up, but I heard a story on general types of people on NPR radio. http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/a...ho-gets-ahead/ This isn't quite it, but it's similar. I remember one of the personality types he talked of was of people who convert from a giver into a taker by being burned too often, and then he talked of 'recovering givers'. Don't let negativity of others prevent you from being a postitive person, just be smarter about who and how you trust people.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-15-2016, 04:51 PM
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Ok, quick post about this, as something occurred to me the other day which might be useful to someone.

So, lets say you are designing an experiment to test how trustworthy people are. You get a random sample of people, but only get say 10 people. Unfortunately in that group you get a bunch of thieves and so the experiment indicates that people are horribly untrustworthy. Obviously, given the sample size you can't draw any conclusions about people in general from this.

Unfortunately though, we don't tend to apply this in our daily lives, because we don't frame things as an experiment, but nonetheless our brains constantly make these kinds of assumptions, and learns these kinds of things (and we aren't even aware of it). Realistically we don't have a large enough sample size to make solid generalised reliable opinions about people. We get unlucky and end up being forced to interact with someone who really isn't good for us, often for many years and if we are really unlucky its a family member.

We learn (subconsciously) that people aren't to be trusted and that they might mock us socially, and so on. And this learning is correct, its absolutely correct, some people are like this, and its a perfectly rational response, given the experience.

But, it isn't necessarily representative of people in general, because of the limited sample size. That isn't to say its incorrect, its just that you can't know its correct for the whole population. It was correct for the people we interacted with, but that is all. But it slips though because we don't look at it in the same way we would look at experiment. Our brains just make these kinds of assumptions without us even noticing. It's how we are built.

So, what's the difference between a SA person and a non SA person? Quite possibly to a large degree the non SA person just lucked out and got the good small sample of people. They got good parents, they didn't get bullied, they had a good support network, "people are generally nice". A SA person likely got a bunch of people mocking their interactions, possibly lousy parenting etc "people are horrible".

A possible solution then, is to test the hypothesis, making sure the sample size is large enough
This is an interesting post. Thanks.

“Never too late to learn some embarrassingly basic, stupidly obvious things about oneself." - Alain de Botton
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-24-2016, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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I appreciate this...I do. I just need moral support--I fear each others, so much.
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