Are psychologists the most useless people in health care? - Page 2 - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #21 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-14-2015, 10:01 AM
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yeah other real scientists have definate methods for plenty of things, rather than just mayeb
Very, if a physic scientists would use such poor methods like psychology, he would get slapped into his face.

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post #22 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-14-2015, 10:46 AM
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There are some equally useless patients, sadly. I feel for mental health professionals since ,unlike some other areas of healthcare, there isn't a "procedure" that can directly address the patient's illness.

And most any solution requires a patient who is truly committed to achieving health and actively participates.

It's too easy to blame the provider when the patient may also be sharing some of the responsibility for achieving their own wellness, and isn't.
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post #23 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-14-2015, 11:05 AM
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I am still wondering.
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post #24 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-14-2015, 11:05 AM
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There are some equally useless patients, sadly. I feel for mental health professionals since ,unlike some other areas of healthcare, there isn't a "procedure" that can directly address the patient's illness.

And most any solution requires a patient who is truly committed to achieving health and actively participates.

It's too easy to blame the provider when the patient may also be sharing some of the responsibility for achieving their own wellness, and isn't.
Definitely. I learned this the hard way. Initially, I thought that venting and taking meds regularly would have been enough to wipe away my mental illnesses completely. My therapists would give me weekly homework that included some exposure therapy and relaxation techniques, but I was either too lazy or stubborn to do any of it. I wanted there to be easier ways to treat my depression and anxiety, but it seemed like everything required me to get out of bed and force myself to do things which seemed draining. Now, I read every handout/article they give me, buy books they recommend to me, and do the homework. Ever since I started taking their advice and making strong efforts to change, I saw drastic improvement in my thinking and behaviors.

It's important to remember that some patients will have treatment-resistant illnesses like severe depression. Or they could have other illnesses that they don't know about that need months or even years of psychiatric evaluation before they even receive a diagnosis. Patience is key.
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post #25 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-14-2015, 11:43 AM
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There are some equally useless patients, sadly. I feel for mental health professionals since ,unlike some other areas of healthcare, there isn't a "procedure" that can directly address the patient's illness.

And most any solution requires a patient who is truly committed to achieving health and actively participates.

It's too easy to blame the provider when the patient may also be sharing some of the responsibility for achieving their own wellness, and isn't.
The problem here is that the illness often affects the patients ability to actively participate. In order to 'be truly committed to achieving health' the patient already needs to be greatly improved from the illness which is causing them the problems, since the lack of motivation to do so is usually part of the problem (if we are talking about depression, which to some degree often accompanies SA).

Its like inventing a physical therapy for someone with weak legs, and saying its the patients fault for not having the strength of legs to do the therapy to strengthen them.

If we pretend that motivation and energy, and commitment are completely separate from the physicality of the brain, then we can blame the patient for a lack of compliance / motivation. If we are realistic however, we have to accept that the way the patient behaves is to a significant degree impacted by the mental health problems, because mental health problems affect the brain, and the brain affects how the person behaves and thinks.
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post #26 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-14-2015, 11:47 AM
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The problem here is that the illness often affects the patients ability to actively participate. In order to 'be truly committed to achieving health' the patient already needs to be greatly improved from the illness which is causing them the problems, since the lack of motivation to do so is usually part of the problem (if we are talking about depression, which to some degree often accompanies SA).

Its like inventing a physical therapy for someone with weak legs, and saying its the patients fault for not having the strength of legs to do the therapy to strengthen them.

If we pretend that motivation and energy, and commitment are completely separate from the physicality of the brain, then we can blame the patient for a lack of compliance / motivation. If we are realistic however, we have to accept that the way the patient behaves is to a significant degree impacted by the mental health problems, because mental health problems affect the brain, and the brain affects how the person behaves and thinks.
I think this is fair too and I certainly wasn't trying to imply that every therapeutic failure lays at the feet of the patient. As we know, there are extremes to everything.
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post #27 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-15-2015, 07:23 AM
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One way find out if psychotherapy is actually helpful, is to use scientific and statistical methods to research the outcomes. And then it wouldn't be guesswork.

The research databases are out there, and are free. Take a look!

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The problem here is that the illness often affects the patients ability to actively participate. In order to 'be truly committed to achieving health' the patient already needs to be greatly improved from the illness which is causing them the problems, since the lack of motivation to do so is usually part of the problem (if we are talking about depression, which to some degree often accompanies SA).

Its like inventing a physical therapy for someone with weak legs, and saying its the patients fault for not having the strength of legs to do the therapy to strengthen them.
This example works against what you're saying. Physical therapy is designed to include individualized work based on the client's needs, desires, and goals, and then gradually increasing abilities within his/her potential. Psychotherapy is really not that different. It does take a different approach, since assessing interaction styles and beliefs and so on, is not so tangibly obvious from the get-go. But it is not fundamentally different.

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If we pretend that motivation and energy, and commitment are completely separate from the physicality of the brain, then we can blame the patient for a lack of compliance / motivation.
If you believe that you cannot make choices and that nothing can get better, and that you have no control over your life, you may decide that psychotherapy can do nothing for you. Why bother?

That kind of belief is self-fulfilling (I can't do anything so I won't. See? - I'm not capable of anything. That belief is true.).

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If we are realistic however, we have to accept that the way the patient behaves is to a significant degree impacted by the mental health problems, because mental health problems affect the brain, and the brain affects how the person behaves and thinks.
And vice versa. Behavior and thoughts influence feelings. This is so well-established in research literature as to be canonical. Your brain has extensive feedback loops from frontal lobes, thalamus, and limbic regions. Interpretations and thoughts from higher areas have a top-down effect.

It's not so much, does A --> B or does B --> A. A and B affect each other in a continuous relationship. This is not to say that psychotherapy has limitless potential to change and improve every person to some kind of arbitrary standard of normalcy but then again, no treatment can do that.

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post #28 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-15-2015, 08:09 AM
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If low motivation is a consequence of depression, then the patient cannot simply 'snap out of this' in the same way he cannot snap out of any other symptoms of depression. It becomes circular (you have to not be depressed before the treatment can help you if the starting point is too much of a jump).

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If you believe that you cannot make choices and that nothing can get better, and that you have no control over your life, you may decide that psychotherapy can do nothing for you. Why bother?

That kind of belief is self-fulfilling (I can't do anything so I won't. See? - I'm not capable of anything. That belief is true.).
What someone believes isn't a product of their conscious will (according to CBT). Why would someone be able to alter their belief about psychotherapy (and thus 'bother') without already having psychotherapy or some other external method to alter their beliefs?

You can't expect someone to alter their beliefs simply by force of will, if they could, CBT would be pointless, since CBT aims to modify a persons beliefs.

My point here isn't to discredit psychotherapy or CBT, it is to point out the inconsistency of 'blaming the patient' for beliefs which lead to non compliance in a therapy which claims patients cannot simply change their beliefs at will

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And vice versa. Behavior and thoughts influence feelings. This is so well-established in research literature as to be canonical. Your brain has extensive feedback loops from frontal lobes, thalamus, and limbic regions. Interpretations and thoughts from higher areas have a top-down effect.

It's not so much, does A --> B or does B --> A. A and B affect each other in a continuous relationship. This is not to say that psychotherapy has limitless potential to change and improve every person to some kind of arbitrary standard of normalcy but then again, no treatment can do that.
I agree entirely. My comment wasn't one on the potential of psychotherapy per se, rather the mindset of blaming a 'difficult patient'. If part of the patients problem is low motivation, it is necessary for the therapy (and therapist) to address and deal with this.

Presumably a therapy needs to work on the motivational aspects of the problem first, in a graduated fashion. In my experience this isn't the case however, one is simply expected to have the motivation to do all of the homework from the get go. The attitude of 'well you get out of it what you put in' that's why it didn't work is faulty for a patient who is impaired in their capacity to 'put in'.
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post #29 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-15-2015, 11:35 AM
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Medication doesn't solve anything long term, CBT therapy along with other forms of cognitive , lifestyle changes, exercise, diet, does.

Let me sum up the typical western medical doctor's approach to health and illnesses in this 15 seconds of video. Though this clip is about investing I am pretty sure you will get the analogy I am making.






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post #30 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-08-2015, 07:01 PM
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For a lot of people, it's hard to come across a good therapist. All of my psychologists were great, but I had one psychiatrist that I gradually became uncomfortable around. He would get offended over things I would say even if they weren't directed towards him, and he prescribed me medications that made me physically ill as if he wasn't well-informed. I felt like he was randomly throwing different medications at me without careful consideration. Even my dad got pissed off at this guy and ended up calling him on the phone to demand that I get taken off of my meds, but my dad couldn't do anything about it because I was already a legal adult by then.
thats what my experience has been they just throw meds at you whatever they feel like putting you on or keeping you on and dont care to really think about it or what theyre doing to you. also ive found about fifty psychologists to be useless and not even know much about psychology. one said the point of therapy was for me to vent and for her to just sit there while i do all the talking. that she never had to say a word or give any advice or help. thats not why i go to them though...........i wanted to figure things out or get advice and tips and help. they know nothing they offer nothing theyre a bunch of idiots. random people know more than they do. its not funny.
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post #31 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-08-2015, 07:18 PM
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When are they going to tell me something really profound? It never came.
Their job is not to say something profound and give you all the answers.
Their job is to get you to say something profound so you can find the answers for yourself.
Most of the talking in a good therapy session should come from the patient.

Therapists, psychologists are not advisers. At least, the good ones aren't.

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post #32 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-08-2015, 07:21 PM
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one said the point of therapy was for me to vent and for her to just sit there while i do all the talking. that she never had to say a word or give any advice or help. .
She was a good therapist.
You have to be a willing participant, though.
It's okay that you weren't. We are ready when we are ready.
It took me over 10 years to be ready.

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post #33 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-08-2015, 08:23 PM
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Their job is not to say something profound and give you all the answers.
Their job is to get you to say something profound so you can find the answers for yourself.
Most of the talking in a good therapy session should come from the patient.

Therapists, psychologists are not advisers. At least, the good ones aren't.
dont listen to the person i quoted its bad advice. psychologists arent helfpul i get more help from random people who know more about psychology. ive been to therapists for twenty years.
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post #34 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-09-2015, 03:53 AM
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dont listen to the person i quoted its bad advice. psychologists arent helfpul i get more help from random people who know more about psychology. ive been to therapists for twenty years.
I wasn't giving advice. I was pointing out what good therapists do.

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post #35 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-09-2015, 03:18 PM
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Notice this YouTube channel i.e. PsyFile for example, it's dead despite being part of the Numberphile network. You'll also notice that the channel tells us less what psychology can do but more what psychology can't do.
https://www.youtube.com/user/psyfile/videos
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post #36 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-09-2015, 03:58 PM
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Psychologists are supposed to know about psychology. One said "I'm sorry I don't know anything about anxiety." I asked one about schizotypal and she looked it up in her book and read to me about schizoaffective and said that it had another name schizoaffective. I had to tell her that they're two different things. Also she knew nothing about either of them and only knew about one after reading it in her book. I've asked therapists for twenty years what was wrong with someone I know and gave them all the information. They never knew. Then some random person on this site figured it out in two seconds after a post I made. Then I did all the reading about it and found out the random person is right. Why couldn't a psychologist figure this out given the same information and even more? They never knew anything. Most of them gave very little in ways of help or tips and it was a complete waste of time. I got more help from friends long distance over the phone. And two of them forged my records to cover themselves, what a shock. Maybe some could have been helpful but they still couldn't figure out what someone on here figured out in like two seconds. Why is that? And the ones that could have been helpful I was too anxious to be around them and also I hated them. So I left. And if I'm difficult, which I don't think I really am, isn't that to be expected from us mentally ill, the ones who are mentally ill and difficult, and isn't it their job to try to help us even though we're resistant or whatever? If we are resistant or mental then yeah it may be impossible. But most of all it was all a waste of time and I hated all of them.
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post #37 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-09-2015, 05:37 PM
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Their job is not to say something profound and give you all the answers.
Their job is to get you to say something profound so you can find the answers for yourself.
Most of the talking in a good therapy session should come from the patient.

Therapists, psychologists are not advisers. At least, the good ones aren't.
This was my experience with the last psychologist I saw. Unlike a lot of my previous counselors, this one preferred for me to do most of the talking. And that felt strange to me. But I grew into it. I figure a large component of counseling so to have an anchor or a constant for the patient. A counselor can notice behaviours/patterns that the patient is blind to.

One peculiar thing that happened during my sessions with this psychologist was that I frequently seemed to go back and forth between moments of high clarity and high uncertainty. (Like of what major I want to be, where I want to proceed through life). Like I'd be all: "Yes, I wanna do X. I want X in my life!!" Followed by: "OMG, what have I done, X is gonna be so hard!" I brought this up with her too, mentioning that I've never been so confused during therapy. Obviously she wasn't try to trick me or point me down a certain path in life. But there was this strange, subtle facilitation going on there. Although I'm still not so sure of what she did to me.

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post #38 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-09-2015, 10:43 PM
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yip i do better talking in front of a mirror dont know about others tho
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post #39 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-10-2015, 08:38 AM
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They can't even cure a cold if you think about it. There are only treatments, which depending on how your body responds to them might be usefull(with a lot of side effects of course). But most of the time there is no cure.
You are aware of how difficult it is to cure the common cold, right?
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post #40 of 122 (permalink) Old 11-10-2015, 11:01 AM
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I want your opinions.
I have been to various different therapists over the years and I always made the same experience that basically they were ABSOLUTELY useless. The "advice" they gave if I may even call it so were so absolutely shallow and banal that basically ANY human could have given them. Some advice were okay but really NOTHING special at all. I could as well have talked to a drunk guy in a pub he might have said exactly the same things.
I was always wondering WHERE EXACTLY is the great psychological wisdom? When are they going to tell me something really profound? It never came. I seriously ask myself what do these people go to the university for? What do they learn there when the stuff which comes out of their mouths is simply gibberish?

I think psychologists are absolutely over-paid and useless. They make way too much money simply sitting on their asses and saying a few trivial things every now on then.
Yes you are right - it is simply too much of an easy career option for all too many - bleating out empty platitudes and statements of the obvious. Your better off doing your own research and finding what works for you. There are psychologists in virtually every area of our society and economy now - and largely they are not doing much that helps anyone - there are some good ones though, but most are not very helpful.

The one blaming his patients just shows unprofessionalism to the highest degree - like the poor quality workman who blames his tools!

If using a psychologist or psychiatrist - interview them FIRST, and check if their whole ideology regarding treatment is something that impresses and inspires you - if it doesn't then steer clear - you're just another SKU to them and a bar code. If you get a good one (they are rare) they could be WELL worth the effort though I believe. Schools today though are simply not turning out these in sufficient numbers.

Good luck

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