This is really good! This must be it. My toxic shame was nonexistent on SSRIs, then it was partial during CBT, and now it binds me all over again. I'm isolated with all the demons of my past, haunted even though I try to break free, I just feel neglected all over again and keep thinking about dying. I guess the more isolated you become the more paranoid you get. Yes, your current lenses and surroundings tell you the truth whereas if I was out in the world with people then my lenses would tell another story all-together. I watched some of his videos on youtube, he is really really really good.

So cool. I've been in treatment for a long while now, and have done a lot of work on cutting away toxic shame as well as social anxiety, no one has ever pointed out such a clear connection between the two for me. But it makes sense, and hits home.

Retrospectively, I can even see how each time I've worked on one, it's affected the other without my consciously noticing.

@Lifetimer
It's great you put so much effort into this. I've come to the same conclusion with regards to the essence of SA for probably most of us. Have you read Patricia DeYoung's Understanding and Treating Chronic Shame: A Relational/Neurobiological Approach? I consider it mandatory for everyone dealing with SA. I've skipped through this thread a bit and think it may connect some more dots.

The development of the self, the neurobiology of it, shines light on why this goes deeper than false beliefs and why it can't be addressed on your own. The trauma is relational. I suspect it started early in life for most of us.

The relation a young child has with it's surroundings is causal, which is very unfortunate. This means it experiences everything done to him as "because I am X,Y,Z". It all happens when the self is being shaped, way before we can "think". These interactions are what kneads the essence of how we come to view ourselves and the world which surrounds us later on in life. Our wiring. It also sets off the development of our stress system in a particular way.

Epigenetics. A brilliant way of nature to have a set of genes, but letting the early experiences determine which/how they are expressed. Nature via nurture. Stress sculpts the brain. The only buffer young children have against stress is a parent/caregiver. Our experience of being whole depends on attunement from those closest to us. Chronic misattunement means you don't learn to regulate your emotions/stress, have no basic sense of safety/belonging nor a fundamental sense of worthiness. "Shame is an experience of our felt sense of self disintegrating in relation to a dysregulating other." As DeYoung defines it.

Nobody who I've come across who takes the neurobiology into account dared to speak about full recovery being possible. DeYoung, Cozolino, Schore, Ogden, to name a few. This is more likely to be a continuous process untill we die for most of us. I echo Cozolino from personal experience that it's crucial for us to get in touch with our healthy anger.

For anyone wanting to dig deeper than psychology: developmental trauma, attachment theory, interpersonal neurobiology, affect (dys)regulation.

Genes the brain and illness and mental illness. Just plain ignorant for no reason. I tried learning and fail I tried pretending to be happy pretending to be okay. Just time also. Remembering trauma instead of actual knowledge has taken a toll on me. Forgetful is another. Its not my fault but feel guilty an ashamed and have been shamed and it wont let up. Sorry for the grammar errors. I turn auto-correct off. Not as smart as I thought I was. There are some kind people on here like my family. They would tell me Im paranoid or shouldn’t worry heck I do the same. Im not sure i’m helping anyone or me. I know there is something wrong with me I can’t even fix it before getting any older. I don’t think it can be fix. Being a outsider it sucks its the most lonely feeling in the world. I worry my mom a lot probably scare her because she don’t know what to do when I get emotional upset. I feel that my shame is toxic.

Been struggling with this for a long time.

Feeling less than human just makes me want to isolate myself, but that's not the life I want to live. It's been like this far too long. Forcing myself out into the world is a painful experience, but the more I do it, the more tolerable it becomes.

Human interaction is also pretty huge. Once you loose that ability, it's hell to get that back. I've been lucky that I have friends, male and female that take the time to engage with me, because without it, I wouldn't have the foundation to really start addressing this. They drag me out of my shell kicking and screaming, and I'm so so thankful for that.

Lifetimer, I want to thank you for this thread. I have SA for all of my life. As a child it was not much. I was only not able to talk to adults or girls I liked. But I had tons of friends, laughing and having fun. With 12 I became heavy acne. Wich isolated me for over 6 years. Locked me in my room and was sitting in front of my computer all day. I had to go to school, wich was a huge pain. I still was able to connect with people. I remember that I connected with the most "ugly" guys in school. And even then I felt way way under them and completely worthless. At some points I had luck and there were guys with "high value" who were friends with me. Especially one guy was awesome.

Later, after acne, with 18, I was able to have friends. I were shy but that was it. Until I explored alcohol. Wich was my best friend until I got 30. I got an pancreas inflamation by drinking too much. So I had to give up alcohol (Otherwise I would die). Wich was a friend for heavy social situations like partys or hanging out in groups. I got damn depressed and isolated completely from everything because I had no more exit point (alcohol). I had "luck" by working on my computer. So I was able to work from home. I had almost no social interactions until I got 35. I was hitting the gym or going on holiday trips (of course alone).

Then a girl came into my life, I was chatting with for 10+ years. I was horribly nervous to meeting her since I did not talked to girls for 5+ years. I was in fear that I am a dissapointment for her and I would not be the guy like on facebook. We met. And of course all my fears came true. She told me a "keyboard hero" but shy in real life. She told me she is dissapointed and thought I am fun and social and super duper. So after the date I was damn sad but also happy that she did not like me. So I could go on with my isolated (secure) life.

But this girl had a plan. She had multiple sclerosis. And her boyfriend left her because she was no virgin. So I guess I was her last hope. First I was against the relationship because I was feeling why she is forcing it to be with me (even though she told me such things like she is dissapointed etc.). But she really forced it. I fighted against the relationship for one year. Because I loved to be alone in front of my computer. To get rid of her, I told her all my weak points. Showed her my "true me". And each time she told "i completely love and accept you". "I would die for you". " I will never ever in life leave you". And I believed all that. I trusted her more than anybody else before in my life. Wich lead to healing my TS more and more. I was happy in life. I was loving her more and more. Deeply. From my deepes heart. And at one point, I was so thankful for having her. I was close to marry her.

But then life hit me once again. She met this new guy in school. Complete opposite of me. Playboy, Macho, loud and jerky. And he wanted her. I guess he told her he would marry her. And things happened so fast and with such pain. She got cold so fast. In just one week she was a different person. I felt that there is somebody else. So I broke up before she did. But her ego was not able to handle that. So she called me and told me "let us think about all this, I love you" blah. I said ok, give it another try. A week later she told me all the stuff I was fearing. "You are not social, you are not hanging out with my friends, you will not hang out with my family later, I can not accept you as you are" and left me.

Booooom. Life ****ed me once again. And so badly. I can not explain that pain. First 2 days I needed medication to calm down. I was close to suicide. Not because she left me. But because of the game that she played with me for 1 1/2 years. That it was all just a game. All the words were lies. She did not accept me. This led to more Toxic Shame thoughts like "nobody can accept me, I am a failure" etc. It took me 2 months to become a bit stable. I was daily in tears. I realized, she gave my inner child all the love I never became in my life. And then she killed him. But I did not give up life. Its been 6 months now.

That was the turning point in my life. I´ve read through the Toxic Shame book. Did a lot of things I never would have done before in my life. Living in a hostel for 4 weeks was the highlight. It triggered so much Toxic Shame that I had a brake down. But yet it was waaaay better than sitting at home all day. I changed my thinking about myself mostly. I am kind to myself. I realized (and that helped much) that I am the most important person in my life. And that I will never leave myself.

Long story short, what helped and helps me a lot is, so Lifetimer, add this to the tools for healing TS, I was in Voice Dialogue therapy (like John Bradshaw reccomends) and we made an excercise that is awesome in shame situations. I recommend to try it.

1. Imagine a baby or a child with 3 or 4 years.
2. Imagine that this baby or child feels that shame you feel in that social situation.
3. In this social situation you are trying to push the shame away, you are fighting it and try to get rid of it ASAP.
4. Now imagine, if that baby or child would feel this shame, would you kick it also away? Or would you embrace it and tell him everything is just fine?
5. This naturally leads to embrace your shame. Wich leads to healing it. Just like John Bradshaw says, embrace your shame.

This can´t be done at home in a safe place. You have to leave your comfort zone.

I got thrown back so many times. And I had to stay up so many times. I opened myself to new people and got rejected so many times. Girls told me that I am weird and boring and not normal. All that things we fear to hear. And it hurts. So much. But as Lifetimer says, you have to stop caring about what others think. YOU ARE THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN YOUR LIFE. Never give up. Love yourself. Think more positive about yourself. Heal your Toxis Shame. I am just at the beginning. I don´t know where this trip will lead me to. Just today was pretty bad. But tomorrow is another day.

Ahh, what I forgot, I PMed Lifetimer a few months ago about that Cheat Sheet. But I guess he´s not active anymore. So can anybody here sent me that sheet please?

P.S. Another throwback, my EX GF - who "loved" me and would die for me - got engaged with that new guy just 5 months after the brake up. Life is just not fair to some of us. But yeah, it goes on. Heads up.

Nice thread!

Hi everyone,

I am just letting everybody know I am still alive, well, and kicking! I try to check in on this thread at least once per month to see of any new posts made here. I don't post as much as I used to because I am busy doing other things. But, as I said, I do try to remember to check in on this thread at least once a month or so. The SAS forum system used to send me emails when someone has made a post to this thread, but for some reason they stopped sending me any notifications. That is why I try to occasionally check in to this thread, to see if any new posts are made. If anyone would like to have a copy of my Toxic Shame Plan documents, then please PM me. As I said, I only check in about once a month (if I can remember to do so), and therefore it could possibly take awhile before I am able to view your request in my PM box. But I will eventually get around to seeing it.

I thank everyone for the posts you have made in this thread. I continue to be emotionally moved by many of the posts here. I believe everyone here can heal your toxic shame if you follow the advice in this thread, as well as the info in my Toxic Shame documents. It will take work, effort and time (it will not be healed overnight), but you CAN heal your shame and its symptom of social anxiety. I have healed my TS and SA, but there are other areas of my life that I would like to improve. I guess to some extent we are always a "work in progress" (meaning, we can always make improvements). No, we (or anyone) will never be "perfect" ... nor should we try to be. But, if there are areas in our lives that we feel we can improve in, then why not? That's where I am at right now.

I do hope everyone that reads this thread will take it seriously and work to heal your toxic shame. It is needless to continue to live with the pain.


Lifetimer

Toxic Shame comes from our hurt inner child. He got shamed at some point in his life. I am in progress to heal my inner child. There are several inner child meditations and one toxic shame meditation on YouTube. Go and do them. Read the book (Homecoming: Reclaiming and Healing Your Inner Child) from John Bradshaw. Feel your hurt inner child. Cry. Get angry. Get anxious. Embrace him. Embrace you. Accept yourself. Accept your shame. It´s your inner child that is scared and shamed. It´s not you. You are not broken. He is not broken. He is ok as he is. You are ok as you are.

It will be hard. It will hurt. It will take time. I still fall back in my old role (shy/people pleaser) pretty often. Some times I can switch to my confident self. Then I fall back to my shame self (looking for love and approval from others). Then I realize I am in that role again.

Do not expect love and approval from others. Nobody but you can give you the love you need. I lived it. Just 8 months before I got dumped by my ex girlfriend. She have given me the love I never got in all my life. It felt so incredible, words can not describe. She was playing the perfect loving mother I never had. I realized this after the brake up. She gave me the love my mother never gave me. And then she left me for some macho playboy guy. Complete opposite of me. She played it all just to heal her own wounds and find some idiot to marry. But then she built power through me, came back to life and dumped me for him. I was close to death after that. Because it hurt so incredibly much. But I fought. I realized, she hurt my vulvernable inner child I showed her. I realized, nobody can give me this kind of love, my child needs. As soon as I show this vulvernable child to somebody else, it will get hurt again. So I need to heal his pain. I need to approve that he is great. I need to give him the love he expects from others.

Give yourself approval and love by loving your inner child. You are not shy. It is just a part of you. Just read the book "Embracing ourselfs: The Voice Dialogue Manual" and then go to a therapist and see how you magically get desidentified from your shy self. Discover your other parts. Your confident parts. You have them inside you. Then train it. Give yourself some love. Give all your parts love. They are all yours. It will not be easy. And you will fall back into your old shy role pretty often. Because it was your primary self all of your life. But realize, there are different parts inside you as well. You are not just that shy person. You just learned to be this shy personality all of your life. It is not easy to "get rid" of that role. I hope I will be some day at that point where I can decide wich part of me I want to be at any moment. Thats the goal of the voice dialogue method.

this is an inspiring story you gone through a lot. thank you for sharing. Your ex didnt kill your inner child, i can relate it feels this way. But you have discovered your inner child after that in the dialoque therapy, it gets abandoned by us when we get hurt and shut down.

When i get in touch with my inner child i sometimes cry, sometimes i want to hold him and say him that hes ok or i want to shout at my parents for having done such a miserable job at parenting. How they were very unstable, and the little tobi didnt feel save.

what might help you is to think that your ex has low self esteem. She has an inferioty complex. You did take your pain and work on yourself, she doesnt. But everyone comes to a point where nothing works anymore and they need to work on themselves. If not in this lifetime, maybe the next will push them harder so the pain can be a catalyst for transformation.

Hi Tobi08,

thanks for your kind words. I see you also work on your inner child. That is maybe the best thing we can do. If even we reject him, who else will love him? Or lets say, if even we reject our pain, shame and fear, who else will love them?

My biggest fear was the numb feeling (or feeling nothing), when I am over that brake up. And sometimes, especially the last two weeks, it is coming back. My ex brought me back to life with that brake up. But yeah, as I said, the numbness comes back from time to time and I need to rehurt myself to get back on track instead of sitting at home in front of the computer. This numbness that Bradshaw talks about is protecting us from our shame- and painful feelings by feeling nothing. But it also takes you away from life. I prefer to live in pain instead of feeling nothing (again, just like the seven years before).

It´s hard to stay on track and giving up seems so easy. Lock yourself back home again and just waste your time with computer and stuff... Lets see where this journey leads... I´ve gone through so much the last nine months. But sometimes I feel like it was all for nothing, when the toxic shame comes back and kicks you.

You make good progress. Then the inner parent/critic/toxic shame comes and tells you (of course in a social situation) all these painful stories -> look how confident the other guys are, you will never make it, you are not good enough, nobody likes you, you are such a trash, girls find you weird, people find you strange etc... The only thing that can help is to stay aware and say "shut up and go **** yourself" or "do it better then" or "help me instead of bashing me".

Just wondering, how many of you guys had a feminism fanatic mother who forbid you to be a man?

I think I just found a huge source of my toxic shame. I was never allowed to be a man! To be aggressive or angry or mad. To be disrespective. To be ignorant. To be dominant. To be loud. To say "bring me this or do that". To be ME! It was never allowed. All that was strictly forbidden. Just shut your mouth.

My Mom forbid me to be like my father. So I became a perfect (wo)man. My therapist told me last month "so you lived 37 years of your life with 50% of your personality". That was a huge realization. I have a dick between my legs. But I mostly was in "fear" to use it on women like men should do because it was not ok to be a man. Or to be me.

I mostly had girlfriends who forced me (daily) to sex. I know, every mans dream. But I was running away from sex lol. Because it was not turning me on when the women was the dominant person. It was not allowed for me to be dominant. So she had to take over that part. When she was dominant, I had hard times to become an errection. It simply turned me off because normally that should be my role.

I had this realization years ago but never knew the impact that it has on my life. Since I know the book from John Bradshaw about Toxic Shame, I was searching for a source of my TS. I think this is a huge part of it. I started reading the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I knew this pick up stuff for 10 years now. And it in some way ruined my life fully due to inner conflicts. But reading this stuff now, with the knowledge of Toxic shame, changes things.

A man should naturally feel like an Alpha male. It´s his nature. You do not born as a beta boy. With all this feminism on TV, Parents, Teachers etc. men forgot their roles. My father was somehow an Alpha Male. At least at home. And my mom was begging me to never become like my dad. Even though she was furious about him and screamed and raged and told me how much she hate him, after each fight, she was loving to have sex with him (yeah, very ugly to hear them having sex when you are just 8 or so).

I just thought about the belief "It is ok to be me" and I felt a lot of relief. "It is ok to be a man", "It is ok to be angry, mad, aggressive, dominant". Feels all good. But there is still huge resistance in me when I say this stuff. I can not think about to shout to woman. Giving her commands. Not possible.

The first time I felt anger and allowed me to be mad and angry was last year, after my Ex Girlfriend cheated on me and left me for a bad boy. First I was blaming it on me. I should have treated her better, I should have loved her more blah...

Then I read the book "Voice Dialogue", wich is recommended from John Bradshaw in his book. In the "Voice Dialogue" book, the Authors say that every part of our personality is ok and should be accepted. Even "bad" parts we try to keep under water. 37 years later, for the first time in my life, I felt angry. Angry for what she did. Angry about me that I let her do this with me. And it was an energizing huge great motivating feeling. For the first time in my life I felt like a man. I felt energy, sexuality, libido. I even became Acne on my back. For the first time in my life I talked to people like a normal person should do. Not super duper nice, not shy, not needy. When I needed something, I said it. When there was something wrong with my food, I said "this is not ok give me a new one". It was just pure me. And it felt great. I was addicted to this feeling. To be normal. The first time in my life I felt free and without huge shame and shyness.

But 2 months ago it started fading away because the anger on my EX was fading more and more away. So I tried to think about what she did to me to get mad again. But no chance, I started feeling shy and ashamed again. I was so frustrated and mad at me. Because nothing changed in the last 9 months. I did so much incredible stuff. But now back to the old?

What I did not realized was that I let Mr. Nice Guy drive the bus again. I started to be nice again. Shy. Friendly. Respectful. I had times where I was able to switch to the "normal confident" role back again. But the Mr. Nice Guy or Inner Child was (and still is) stronger. When Shame takes over, I sometimes still have no chance.

I do a lot lot of EFT. But I think I can not reach the roots of most of the stuff. But hopefully it is possible to heal all this and be free in the near future. Because it is our right to be us! It is our right to like us! It is our right to give us priority before others. We don´t need to please people. We don´t need others approval. We need to love us as we are.