I agree. Do I, do...I...have...USL?
I never said you do it. But most people with CSL do. We've already talked about the difference between private vs public metrics of worth.
Ah good, we finally get to disagree.
The day I treat people who treat me like s*** the same as people who treat me well and think of them as equal is the day my self-esteem has completely disappeared.
Lol. I knew that would get you.
I'm talking about respecting their basic humanity, their right to exist, and their right to pursue happiness. I don't conflate a person's actions with their essential worth.
A person may have contemptible beliefs, and do horrible things. I will most certainly let them know how I feel about their ideas and actions. I will defend myself and others from their actions if I'm able to. I hand out tongue lashings all the time on the forum.
But I don't consider anyone inferior to myself or worth less than myself. I consider them foolish or misguided or cruel or selfish. Those are all things that can hopefully be changed. And if they have some kind of condition that can't be changed (eg. psychopathy) then they just have to be separated from the rest of the population so that no one gets hurt. Then we do what we can to understand them and help them if possible.
Feeling this way hasn't affected my self-esteem at all. It's rock solid. Because my self-love is completely unimpeded. It doesn't matter if I respect the humanity of my enemies because I don't consider any of them my superior. What does it cost me to feel this way? If I don't like someone, or think that they're dangerous, I just stay away from them, and warn other people what they're like. I've been trying to convince my sister to leave her bf for years now. But I can see how trying to feel this way would seem threatening to a person who doesn't understand this perspective.
I don't know why you seem to have this rigid view that everyone who has USL would be just like you and everyone with CSL would be like the caricature you've created. If I fail to meet my standards I also seek to improve, what I don't do is pretend that these shortcomings are absolutely fine and inconsequential, that just sounds like an abdication of personal responsibility.
Because you can't have USL and believe in the relative worth of persons at the same time. I've already explained this. It doesn't
work. You might think you have USL, but if you believe in relative worth then you don't; you have some kind of CSL, though the only condition might be: "It's okay for me, but not for anyone else." That's still a condition. If you apply one set of standards to yourself, and another set of standards to other people, then what you are is a hypocrite, not USL.
I have to talk in caricatures to talk about a general phenomenon. I can't describe a dozen different possibilities every time I make a point. But I have never at any point said that all CSL people are the same. What I've said is that they all share a process of ranking people: some people are superior, others inferior. If they don't rank people, then they're probably USL.
But the criteria they use can be basically anything, which is why every CSL person ranks people slightly differently. Christians have one system, feminists another, scientifically minded atheists another. The possibilities are endless. You can follow your own standards, but if your love is conditional on those standards, then you will also evaluate the worth of other people based on those standards. Which you've already admitted. You may not care what they
think of you
, but you care a great deal about what you
think of them
. You absolutely refuse to give up your right to consider some people inferior. That's your choice.
But you really seem stuck on this idea that I think everything is absolutely hunky dory no matter what my actions are. Which is not my position at all, and I've rejected it multiple times. You're arguing against a strawman. If your child does things you know are harmful to themselves or others, you stop them. You explain why it's bad. You set limits on their behavior. I am exactly the same way with myself. I take my own happiness and the happiness of others very seriously. You're confusing actions with individuals.
A person's actions
may be contemptible, but a person
is not contemptible. I can condemn a person's actions without condemning them as a person and calling them a worthless good-for-nothing. If a person is behaving in destructive ways, there is probably a reason. They are misguided, or self-hating, or ill. I'm interested in getting them out of that state so that they can be a happier, less destructive person. It makes zero sense at all to be USL and allow self-destructive or other-destructive behaviors.
Having high standards and personal responsibility are part and parcel of USL because you have to be that way to be a loving person.
But all of my metrics are practical, are you a hypocrite? Do you think critically? Are you kind? Do you have a sense of humour? Are you empathetic? Etc, etc. I don't care about race, gender, socio economic status or the things most people seem to think makes someone valuable.
Your metric of who is superior/inferior is not practical. All the others are. As I've said (repeatedly) I can rank people in terms of how smart or talented or kind, etc., they are. But having those traits doesn't make them worth more than other people. It just makes them smarter or more talented or kinder, etc.
It seems completely irrational to me to try to rank people in terms of worth. I don't know how that could be anything but a completely worthless, arbitrarily subjective metric. With anything else, there are ways of measuring. You can tell who's a better cook by eating their food, or who's a better runner by watching them race. What you can't do is tell who's a better person because there is no way to be a better or worse person. But that doesn't mean that there aren't better and worse people for you, personally, to spend your time with. If I enjoy one person's company more than another's, I'll spend time with that person and not the latter.
I reject societies standards.
So do I. This entire argument is me rejecting the way 99.99% of the world's population thinks about self-esteem and the worth of persons. I'm used to disagreeing with almost everyone about almost everything. It tends to make me a very unpopular person. And, at times, a "tyrant".
It takes a lot of self-esteem to stand up and tell the rest of the world they're wrong about something.
OK, let's use this as an example. If a surgeon was constantly killing their patients even though they were undertaking routine operations, do they deserve to be a surgeon (they really really want it and it will make them really really happy
Would this hypothetical surgeon have as much of a right to succeed at being a surgeon as other surgeons who don't kill their patients?
Just because you kill you patients that doesn't mean you don't deserve to be a surgeon does it? That's something those CSL losers would say isn't it.
There's that strawman again. Why would a bad surgeon have as much right to be a surgeon as a good surgeon? If you're a terrible surgeon, you shouldn't be a surgeon. But not being qualified to be a surgeon doesn't mean you should feel bad about it. Lots of people would be terrible surgeons. Should they all feel badly about it?
A person like that can either learn how to be a good surgeon, or find something else that makes them happy. A loving person doesn't take risks with the lives of other people. Nor should those who are qualified to be surgeons feel superior to those who aren't. They can take pride in their abilities as long as they don't fall prey to the delusion that being good at something makes them a better or more worthwhile person than other people. That kind of narcissism is a product of CSL.
I was the person who hated themselves and thought they weren't worthy of anything when I was younger. The way I overcame this was by realising that there was no reason that I had to adopt societies standards as my own and most importantly challenging all irrational thinking (whether it be positive or negative). Maybe USL would be more effective for most people, who knows?
I was the same way. I was suicidal for years. People convinced me I was a disgusting and shameful type of person. I mean, if everybody
is telling you that, it's hard to disprove them, isn't it? It's a little irrational, isn't it, to believe something that absolutely no one else believes in?
I got through it by realizing that no one knows
. No one is actually
in any position to judge the worth of another person. It's arbitrary and subjective. It doesn't matter if everyone thinks I'm a disgusting, contemptible person, because they're all wrong. They just don't know it.
Quite the panacea you have there.
I'm not claiming to have a panacea. Being this way hasn't solved all my problems. It's only solved a certain, very specific problem: unhealthy self-esteem. Unhealthy self-esteem includes both deflated and inflated self-esteem. The way to fix your self-esteem is to realize that there are no better or worse people.
I do think this idea -- that some animals are more equal than others -- contributes to a lot of other problems beyond just self-esteem, but it's all conjecture at this point, since obviously almost no one thinks this way.
So ... what if I'm right?