How to help NEET sibling? Running out of options. - Social Anxiety Forum
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
the knowledge void
 
versikk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: between Worlds
Gender: Other
Age: 31
Posts: 5,094
Exclamation

How to help NEET sibling? Running out of options.


PREAMBLE:
since all states/cities/countries are different, advice pertaining to finance/govt etc is moot. I am looking for more "overarching" advice.

and thank you in advance to everyone who reads this thread.
-----------------


My sibling has been NEET for most of their post-K12 life. Current status is NEET for the last 3 years. (dropped out of school a bunch of times & been fired from a few short term jobs before that)

Basically:
- 25yo.
- Dysthymia, severe GAD, mild SA, undiagnosed moderate BPD, possibly moderate ADD as well. Ambivert.
- mentally fragile (tho rarely self-harms, never attempted suicide and likely never will)
- terrible circadian, usually sleeps during day and gets up anywhere from noon until evening almost every day.
- quit SSRI; generally terrified of prescription psychotropics
- refuses therapy
- refuses schooling/re-schooling
- refuses seeking help from social services

- procrastinates looking for work essentially all the time (picture someone saying "i'm gonna start looking for work next week" for years)

- there is an organisation here who helps people with mental illnesses and addiction problems to get schooling/work. Sibling will not seek them out. and legally, i am not allowed to intervene since sibling is 25yo.

- Sibling sometimes shows motivation/energy/positivity to the point where me and family think "finally, something is happening", only for sibling to hit rock bottom a week later and then nothing happens for months. Rinse, repeat.

- isn't eligible for unemployment benefits, current income is welfare which doesn't even cover half their rent and will run out in like 1 year.

- has uni debts (0 monies due this year tho)

- spends money on snacks and weed while basically having negative income

- no alcohol or hard drugs involved, thank the heavens.


------------------
I know that you can't help people. You can only help people help themselves. but I don't know what to do at this point, i feel like i've tried everything in terms of advice, pep talks, being supportive when sibling is reaching out for a shoulder to cry on, and ALL that stuff. Even considered doing an intervention.

Sibling lives with their partner who is quite similar. To be honest i think they're bringing each other down. I have learnt that you shouldn't meddle in other people's social lives and relationships, so i won't interfere. but IMO it would probably be best if they split up or at least moved to separate homes. Sibling's partner is not on the lease.

Our parents keep supporting them financially and i don't understand why. I told my mom several times "if you keep doing this sibling will never learn to stand on their own 2 feet", mom is like "yeah i know but this time is the last time for reals" but the last time for reals never actually is the last time for reals. My parents are true helicopter parents which is a huge factor in why me and sibling ended up like we did; unfortunately sibling got the shorter end of that stick.

My actual, honest to Mithra opinion is that Sibling will have to move back in with our parents within the year because of all the reasons above.
This will produce immense amounts of "holy crap i'm a bigger failure than i could ever imagine"-feelings and will render Sibling even more lethargic and amotivated than before, thus catapulting them even further into the downward spiral of mental illness.


what the hell do i do at this point? i just feel like i'm watching sibling slowly destroy themselves and i'm powerless to stop it.

AIIOW3VERYT_8N÷5H47EE
the demon is the healer
versikk is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 07:08 PM
pirate
 
andy1984's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: chch
Language: english, silence
Gender: Non-binary
Age: 34
Posts: 5,715
My Mood: Amazed
you can read Chekhov's short story "Neighbors"

"I take what is mine. I pay the iron price."
―Balon Greyjoy
andy1984 is offline  
post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 09:15 PM
Benevolent Dictator
 
truant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Cislandia
Gender: Transgender
Age: 46
Posts: 8,439
My Mood: Brooding
It's extremely hard to help people. I talk to my sister almost every day on the phone and have been for years. Her life is a trainwreck. But most of her problems have, in the opinions of most people, simple solutions. Yet despite my and other people's (my parents, her therapists, her friends, etc.) countless attempts to reason with her, absolutely nothing changes.

The simple, brutal fact is that a person will not change unless they are convinced that the change will lead to a reduction in their pain or increase in their pleasure AND that the change is possible. This is why we say "people have to want to change". "Want" here means that: 1. they are convinced that the change will make their life better, and 2. that they are capable of achieving the change. If a person does not believe that there are better states (because "nothing is worth doing") or that such a state is inaccessible (because "I'm useless") then the change is not possible in their opinion, which is why they don't act.

The entire art of therapy is about finding a way to convince a person that a new way of looking at a problem, or a new way of responding to a problem, is both highly desirable and highly attainable. Iow, if you want to effect change, you have to effect change from within their own model of the world -- at the level of their personal values and self-perceived capabilities. You have to use their own reason and desires against them so that they are inwardly compelled by the evidence they already possess. This can be an extremely slow and tedious process and requires a good deal of sensitivity on the part of the therapist. Most advice falls on deaf ears because they don't share the values of the person giving it and/or they don't have the same opinion of their own capabilities.

My dad is firmly in the "you have to let people learn from their mistakes" camp. And yet every one of my siblings is a mess. They have, at various times, been disowned, homeless, institutionalized, and imprisoned. I was kicked out at 18 so that I could learn how to take care of myself. (And you know what my life is like.) The problem with letting people learn from their mistakes is that not everyone has the same resources. So while many people (probably most) do learn how to be accomplished and independent, because they have the necessary abilities (or sheer good fortune) many people learn the opposite -- that they are utter failures. And the more often they fail, the more thoroughly they learn it. And once they learn that they do not have the ability to succeed, they will lose the motivation to change. Because change, in their opinion, is impossible. At that point, they are only concerned about numbing the pain they feel they have to live with. Which is why they turn to alcohol, drugs, food, porn, etc.

@andy1984 I love Chekhov. But I haven't actually read that story.

Wishing she had a mindblowing GUI
truant is offline  
 
post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 03:18 AM Thread Starter
the knowledge void
 
versikk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: between Worlds
Gender: Other
Age: 31
Posts: 5,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy1984 View Post
you can read Chekhov's short story "Neighbors"
would you mind just relaying the moral of the story?

Quote:
Originally Posted by truant View Post
It's extremely hard to help people. I talk to my sister almost every day on the phone and have been for years. Her life is a trainwreck. But most of her problems have, in the opinions of most people, simple solutions. Yet despite my and other people's (my parents, her therapists, her friends, etc.) countless attempts to reason with her, absolutely nothing changes.

The simple, brutal fact is that a person will not change unless they are convinced that the change will lead to a reduction in their pain or increase in their pleasure AND that the change is possible. This is why we say "people have to want to change". "Want" here means that: 1. they are convinced that the change will make their life better, and 2. that they are capable of achieving the change. If a person does not believe that there are better states (because "nothing is worth doing") or that such a state is inaccessible (because "I'm useless") then the change is not possible in their opinion, which is why they don't act.

The entire art of therapy is about finding a way to convince a person that a new way of looking at a problem, or a new way of responding to a problem, is both highly desirable and highly attainable. Iow, if you want to effect change, you have to effect change from within their own model of the world -- at the level of their personal values and self-perceived capabilities. You have to use their own reason and desires against them so that they are inwardly compelled by the evidence they already possess. This can be an extremely slow and tedious process and requires a good deal of sensitivity on the part of the therapist. Most advice falls on deaf ears because they don't share the values of the person giving it and/or they don't have the same opinion of their own capabilities.

My dad is firmly in the "you have to let people learn from their mistakes" camp. And yet every one of my siblings is a mess. They have, at various times, been disowned, homeless, institutionalized, and imprisoned. I was kicked out at 18 so that I could learn how to take care of myself. (And you know what my life is like.) The problem with letting people learn from their mistakes is that not everyone has the same resources. So while many people (probably most) do learn how to be accomplished and independent, because they have the necessary abilities (or sheer good fortune) many people learn the opposite -- that they are utter failures. And the more often they fail, the more thoroughly they learn it. And once they learn that they do not have the ability to succeed, they will lose the motivation to change. Because change, in their opinion, is impossible. At that point, they are only concerned about numbing the pain they feel they have to live with. Which is why they turn to alcohol, drugs, food, porn, etc.
thank you so much

your eloquence is impressive.

there is a lot to unpack here - won't have time to compose a reply now; lunch break almost over. will re-visit thread and compose a proper reply later.

AIIOW3VERYT_8N÷5H47EE
the demon is the healer
versikk is online now  
post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 03:33 AM
Tired
 
SplendidBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: UK
Language: English
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by truant View Post
The entire art of therapy is about finding a way to convince a person that a new way of looking at a problem, or a new way of responding to a problem, is both highly desirable and highly attainable. Iow, if you want to effect change, you have to effect change from within their own model of the world -- at the level of their personal values and self-perceived capabilities. You have to use their own reason and desires against them so that they are inwardly compelled by the evidence they already possess. This can be an extremely slow and tedious process and requires a good deal of sensitivity on the part of the therapist. Most advice falls on deaf ears because they don't share the values of the person giving it and/or they don't have the same opinion of their own capabilities.
So much this.

Relate to this a lot. My pure O OCD is invisible and it's endlessly frustrating trying to explain to others how much of a devastating effect it has on my life, especially as I am outwardly very capable. People just tell me "just stop thinking about it", which is kinda something I tried 20 years ago. There is often a frustrating mismatch between what other people assume someone can do, and what that person can do, or feels capable of.

In all likelihood @versikk your sibling would like to be able to live a relatively normal life, they just either feel they can't or genuinely cant. It's extremely unlikely to be someone who actually doesn't want to live a good life, so giving pep talks to try to convince them to want something they already want isn't going to help. They just likely feel they *cant* get what they want.

They probably refuse therapy because they are either scared of it, or don't think it will work. They refuse social services because its usually extremely stressful and often people get treated like ****, and the massive stigma.

From the perspective of your relative they probably just see no way out, so engage in escape to remove the pain. (source, personal experience).

Dimethylamidophenyldimethylpyrazolone
SplendidBob is offline  
post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
the knowledge void
 
versikk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: between Worlds
Gender: Other
Age: 31
Posts: 5,094
EDIT: sibling attempted suicide last night.


it would seeeeeem you both would agree that a large dose of emotional distancing should be practiced in cases like this?


@truant
(my parents, her therapists, her friends, etc.) countless attempts to reason with her, absolutely nothing changes.
ok i hear you.

"Want" here means that: 1. they are convinced that the change will make their life better, and 2. that they are capable of achieving the change. If a person does not believe that there are better states (because "nothing is worth doing") or that such a state is inaccessible (because "I'm useless") then the change is not possible in their opinion, which is why they don't act.
sounds like plausible psychomechanics.
could we be able to distill/simplify this into "very low self esteem?", i'd say _possibly_ not because of the fear aspect of that behavior set.


You have to use their own reason and desires against them so that they are inwardly compelled by the evidence they already possess.
yes, exactly! it is a matter of translating.
in a way, it would be like you're copying the configuration of your mind's perception of colors, and then importing those into the patient's brain, so that they see colors exactly the same as you.
IOW, reach the same insights, the same way.

they don't have the same opinion of their own capabilities.

mm. i see it now, teacher.

And the more often they fail, the more thoroughly they learn it. And once they learn that they do not have the ability to succeed, they will lose the motivation to change.
So kinda pavlovian, muscle memory type deal here? am i getting warm?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SplendidBob View Post
, so giving pep talks to try to convince them to want something they already want isn't going to help. They just likely feel they *cant* get what they want.
good point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SplendidBob View Post
They probably refuse therapy because they are either scared of it, or don't think it will work.
it's both. but i'd argue that "i won't work" is a byproduct of "i'm scared" - and vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SplendidBob View Post
They refuse social services because its usually extremely stressful and often people get treated like ****, and the massive stigma.
it's pretty much just fear of stigma and loss of pride i think (both are interrelated naturally), in sibling's case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SplendidBob View Post
1. From the perspective of your relative they probably just see no way out,
i can definitely see the despair/hopelessness/catatonia in them

Quote:
Originally Posted by SplendidBob View Post
2. so engage in escape to remove the pain. (source, personal experience).
escape has been a huge part yeah, as far as i've gathered the escape is usually

A. a brainfog-fueled loss of time, causing problems like immense procrastination, being late to everything, sleeping whenever, feeling disoriented from not having a functioning circadian rhythm etc etc.

B. escaping into regressed states of mind where responsibilities etc are made invisible, such as it were.
some kind of panicky, fake, nostalgic mind-oasis.

as you may have picked up on, A and B are interconnected and very compatible so to speak.

AIIOW3VERYT_8N÷5H47EE
the demon is the healer
versikk is online now  
post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 02:14 PM
Senior Thread Writer
 
Cool Ice Dude55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Essex, UK
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,231
My Mood: Worried
My brother has been a NEET for pretty much his adult life. I wish i knew the answer. They are going to want to change... you just can't make them. Be there for them, but thats it. It's frustrating and annoying as hell I know.


Cool Ice Dude55 is online now  
post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
the knowledge void
 
versikk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: between Worlds
Gender: Other
Age: 31
Posts: 5,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Ice Dude55 View Post
My brother has been a NEET for pretty much his adult life. I wish i knew the answer. They are going to want to change... you just can't make them. Be there for them, but thats it. It's frustrating and annoying as hell I know.
thanks for your 2 cents.

it seems they want it , but not bad enough apparently.

i know what it's like.... i would never have started improving if i didn't realise that i didn't want to feel better. since that day i know that my subconscious wants me to feel bad, so i can at least fight that feeling.

frustrating.... that's an understatement.

AIIOW3VERYT_8N÷5H47EE
the demon is the healer
versikk is online now  
post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 08:28 AM
Senior Thread Writer
 
Cool Ice Dude55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Essex, UK
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,231
My Mood: Worried
Quote:
Originally Posted by versikk View Post
thanks for your 2 cents.

it seems they want it , but not bad enough apparently.

i know what it's like.... i would never have started improving if i didn't realise that i didn't want to feel better. since that day i know that my subconscious wants me to feel bad, so i can at least fight that feeling.

frustrating.... that's an understatement.
i know if you ever want to vent i'm here


Cool Ice Dude55 is online now  
post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 06:21 PM
Benevolent Dictator
 
truant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Cislandia
Gender: Transgender
Age: 46
Posts: 8,439
My Mood: Brooding
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplendidBob View Post
So much this.

Relate to this a lot. My pure O OCD is invisible and it's endlessly frustrating trying to explain to others how much of a devastating effect it has on my life, especially as I am outwardly very capable. People just tell me "just stop thinking about it", which is kinda something I tried 20 years ago. There is often a frustrating mismatch between what other people assume someone can do, and what that person can do, or feels capable of.

In all likelihood @versikk your sibling would like to be able to live a relatively normal life, they just either feel they can't or genuinely cant. It's extremely unlikely to be someone who actually doesn't want to live a good life, so giving pep talks to try to convince them to want something they already want isn't going to help. They just likely feel they *cant* get what they want.

They probably refuse therapy because they are either scared of it, or don't think it will work. They refuse social services because its usually extremely stressful and often people get treated like ****, and the massive stigma.

From the perspective of your relative they probably just see no way out, so engage in escape to remove the pain. (source, personal experience).
Yeah, problems tend to present all sorts of complications that are hidden to anyone who doesn't have the problem themselves. People who know me semi-well (family, coworkers, acquaintances, etc.) tend to look at me and wonder how anyone so smart can be so bad at coping. They don't see the Trunk of Horrors I carry around with me wherever I go.

I agree with the rest of it, too. Most people are well aware of what they should do. They get unsolicited advice all the time. They have brains and have puzzled it all out themselves. So it's generally a bad idea to assume that the problem is that they're lacking information or just need suggestions.

The problem is almost always that the solutions seem unattainable for some reason. So you have to take a step back from the problem and look at the reasons why the solution seems unattainable. Sometimes you have to take lots of steps. I have a general rule of thumb, which is that willpower/motivation is never the problem. The problem always lies in their self/world model. If you can change the model, energy (motivation, willpower) moves in new ways of its own accord.

But changing the model requires a person to accumulate evidence in support of that model. And you have to find some way to convince them that it's worth the trouble. Self/world models tend to be dogmatic, like religions: they have an answer for everything. So you have to find conflicts in their own thinking that you can exploit to gain leverage over them and, as it were, force them to hoist themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by versikk View Post
it would seeeeeem you both would agree that a large dose of emotional distancing should be practiced in cases like this?
As difficult and painful as this situation is, it is not your responsibility to fix it. You can't control their actions. So while you can feel for them, and feel grief if the worst happens, you can't blame yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by versikk View Post
could we be able to distill/simplify this into "very low self esteem?", i'd say _possibly_ not because of the fear aspect of that behavior set.
A negative self-concept can certainly discourage a person from attempting to find a solution, but it's not the only thing. A person may not take an action because it conflicts with a value that they hold in higher priority. Like someone refusing to ask for help because they consider it important for a person to be able to handle their own problems. Or because it conflicts with their understanding of the world (eg. "don't trust anyone; people only want to take advantage of you"). Etc.

And there is usually more than one reason why a person acts the way that they do. They reinforce each other. So you have to get to understand a person's self/world model very well to really know how to help them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by versikk View Post
yes, exactly! it is a matter of translating.
in a way, it would be like you're copying the configuration of your mind's perception of colors, and then importing those into the patient's brain, so that they see colors exactly the same as you.
IOW, reach the same insights, the same way.
It would be nice if that were possible. An individual's self/world model is built out of billions of bits of individual experience. Every person has a different amount of evidence supporting different conclusions. And you can't transfer your evidence directly to another person. Even describing your own process in detail, and trying to plant your evidence in their brain, doesn't generally achieve much. What you have to do is either help them organize their own evidence in a more adaptive way, or find a way to convince them to accumulate evidence that will support a more adaptive conclusion. A person really does have to "see for themselves". People change when the new perspective makes more sense of their experience than the old perspective did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by versikk View Post
So kinda pavlovian, muscle memory type deal here? am i getting warm?
It is a kind of conditioning. They accumulate more and more evidence supporting their belief.

Example: At first, a person simply wonders if maybe they're stupid. So they start to look around to see if there's any evidence to support it. When they find it (anyone can find it), they feel a little more convinced that they're stupid. So their fear grows. And because fear focuses the attention, their brain becomes even more sensitive to that kind of evidence. And because the brain can only pay attention to so much information, they accumulate that evidence at the expense of other kinds of evidence they could be accumulating.

People see/interpret the world differently because the same experience can provide different kinds of evidence just depending on what you're looking for.

Wishing she had a mindblowing GUI
truant is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Burning fat and losing wieght without running GlueEater Nutrition, Supplements and Exercise 17 03-31-2007 06:16 PM
Running - I like it now! Halcyon Nutrition, Supplements and Exercise 5 02-07-2007 09:23 PM
Running relieve anxiety Dreamking Nutrition, Supplements and Exercise 10 10-08-2006 08:47 AM
long distance running anonymid Nutrition, Supplements and Exercise 2 03-29-2006 07:09 PM
running relieves my stress AwkrdNaptural Nutrition, Supplements and Exercise 1 07-11-2005 01:14 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome