Do You Believe In Genetic Luck? - Page 3 - Social Anxiety Forum
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #41 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 12:17 AM Thread Starter
Duke Duck
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,474
My Mood: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheska View Post
First, you speak of theories about 'why' things work the way they do and now you're just making wild assertions without rhyme or reason, selling your opinions as fact. Looks like you've already convinced yourself that you have it bad and there's nothing you can do to improve things. Is the purpose of this thread to validate your defeatist attitude?
I'm not a defeatist. The comment I replied to was an oversimplification of a complex problem. Some people can't just acquire social skills just like that. Some people have Asperger's and other problems that obstruct the natural flow of how most people function.

And what I said has come from experience. The outside world does not think the way we do. Most of the outside world actually IS defeatist........because they've never had to try. They see you try and wonder why you even try in the first place when you have it so hard. They can't comprehend the concept of trying.
DukeDuck is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #42 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 12:22 AM Thread Starter
Duke Duck
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,474
My Mood: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omni-slash View Post
You expect that every time you attempt at something, you're going to marginally gain some improvement, and if you don't, the task is impossible. But it's more like a series of attempts that increases the odds of progression rather than a straight line. You're not walking up a flight of stairs with every social interaction, you're standing at the three point line taking shots. It's a different mindset.

If you believe you can't improve, then what? What are you gonna do? Take your words to their logical conclusion. I don't think you believe what you're saying right now.
Well is a person really going to improve, when the frequency of the action is below a certain point?

If a person goes to the gym every day, their health is going to improve. But what if they go once a year? Or a better analogy: They want to go the gym every day, but the doors to that gym only open once a week. So they end up working out once a week, even though they try to enter it every day. That's what this is like.
DukeDuck is offline  
post #43 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 04:42 AM
Narcissistic Rageaholic
 
truant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Cislandia
Gender: Transgender
Age: 48
Posts: 10,203
My Mood: Brooding
I think everything is luck. Whether or not you have a positive or defeatist attitude is as much a product of luck as whether or not you're born into a rich family. People's beliefs and attitudes are based on their experiences, which they can't control. If you were in the other person's shoes, you would be the other person, with all the same beliefs and attitudes. Believing that you would have lived another person's life differently is just idle daydreaming.

But I don't think luck is a trait (let alone genetic). I think it's just a word we use to describe people who have had statistically abnormal experiences--more positive or negative traits than average, more positive or negative outcomes than average. That's a bit like ascribing the trait "wet" to a person who happens to live in a place where it rains a lot. I understand how it can feel like a trait subjectively, though, because I feel cursed, too.

Beauty isn't everything. It's the only thing.
truant is offline  
 
post #44 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 05:04 AM
SAS Member
 
Sheska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDuck View Post
The outside world does not think the way we do. Most of the outside world actually IS defeatist........because they've never had to try. They see you try and wonder why you even try in the first place when you have it so hard. They can't comprehend the concept of trying.
And there you go again, stating your opinions as fact. You clearly recognise when others oversimplify issues yet proceed to do the same when generalising "most of the outside world". They just can't comprehend... well, you don't know what people can and can't comprehend, what they have to deal with, how hard they have to try. Everyone has limitations, some more than others. And some people have better advantages than others. So what?

And, yes, if what you wrote in this thread is at all representative of your actual attitude, you are indeed a defeatist. According to your posts, you have resigned yourself to inevitable failure, going as far as to anticipate that nature itself would somehow conspire against you and precipitate your defeat. This is textbook defeatism. Question is to what extent are you open to acknowledging the irrationality of this position? If you are absolutely convinced that the world is against you, then, I'm afraid, there's nothing any of us can do or say that would change your perspective and all we are doing here is enabling and reaffirming your defeatism. If, on the other hand, you recognise that your pessimism and defeatism is a problem, then you can look for practical ways to deal with it. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that I, or others here, will have answers for you and be able to resolve your issues, but it does mean that there are resources out there that could potentially guide you do a different outlook on life.
Sheska is offline  
post #45 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 11:55 AM
SAS Member
 
veron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDuck View Post
He's probably one of those genetically lucky people that I talk about. People who somehow know that the universe is protecting them.
The universe isn't protecting anyone.

It appears that you think some people have it easy in life, while you have it hard. You're the only one who has to actually try or work hard to accomplish anything. I know some people with this same attitude. It tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. These people usually do in fact end up with little to show for themselves. The one thing they're good at is thinking up of excuses.
veron is offline  
post #46 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 01:09 PM
SAS Member
 
ScorchedEarth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: State Home for the Ugly
Age: 33
Posts: 4,839
My Mood: Fine
Quote:
Originally Posted by veron View Post
It appears that you think some people have it easy in life, while you have it hard. You're the only one who has to actually try or work hard to accomplish anything. I know some people with this same attitude. It tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. These people usually do in fact end up with little to show for themselves. The one thing they're good at is thinking up of excuses.
Perhaps they're operating under the correct assumption that they have to work hard to accomplish the same things that almost everyone else does effortlessly as a stepping stone to their real ambitions. It's not an excuse if it's a demonstrable reality.
ScorchedEarth is offline  
post #47 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
Duke Duck
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,474
My Mood: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by veron View Post
The universe isn't protecting anyone.
How do you know? This is one of those atheism vs agnostic debates. You don't know for certain whether this is how it works.

Dropping out of high school is not something a rational person would do. The safer option would be to pursue your dreams while simultaneously finishing high school so you have a backup plan. And had his dreams not worked out, I'm pretty sure people would blame him for dropping out and use that against him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by veron View Post
It appears that you think some people have it easy in life, while you have it hard. You're the only one who has to actually try or work hard to accomplish anything. I know some people with this same attitude. It tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. These people usually do in fact end up with little to show for themselves. The one thing they're good at is thinking up of excuses.
Never said others don't have to work hard. Just said that their hard work pays off. Whereas for some of us, things outside our control makes the hard work redundant.
DukeDuck is offline  
post #48 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 01:42 PM
alien monk
 
andy1984's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Age: 36
Posts: 8,295
My Mood: Devilish
its a big no then, i don't believe in genetic luck and i haven't seen any justification for that belief

I alone cannot change the world, but I can cast a stone across the waters to create many ripples. ― Mother Teresa
andy1984 is offline  
post #49 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 01:51 PM Thread Starter
Duke Duck
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,474
My Mood: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by truant View Post
I think everything is luck. Whether or not you have a positive or defeatist attitude is as much a product of luck as whether or not you're born into a rich family. People's beliefs and attitudes are based on their experiences, which they can't control. If you were in the other person's shoes, you would be the other person, with all the same beliefs and attitudes. Believing that you would have lived another person's life differently is just idle daydreaming.

But I don't think luck is a trait (let alone genetic). I think it's just a word we use to describe people who have had statistically abnormal experiences--more positive or negative traits than average, more positive or negative outcomes than average. That's a bit like ascribing the trait "wet" to a person who happens to live in a place where it rains a lot. I understand how it can feel like a trait subjectively, though, because I feel cursed, too.
It really do feel like that. If you had 10 coins and performed 100 flips on each coin, you'd on average get 50 heads and 50 tails for each coin..........and then you reach the 10th coin and it gets 99 heads and 1 tail. You then wonder, " Is there something wrong with this coin? Why does it keep landing on heads ". But thinking of that as anything other than chance makes you a defeatist, apparently.
DukeDuck is offline  
post #50 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
Duke Duck
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,474
My Mood: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheska View Post
And there you go again, stating your opinions as fact. You clearly recognise when others oversimplify issues yet proceed to do the same when generalising "most of the outside world". They just can't comprehend... well, you don't know what people can and can't comprehend, what they have to deal with, how hard they have to try. Everyone has limitations, some more than others. And some people have better advantages than others. So what?

And, yes, if what you wrote in this thread is at all representative of your actual attitude, you are indeed a defeatist. According to your posts, you have resigned yourself to inevitable failure, going as far as to anticipate that nature itself would somehow conspire against you and precipitate your defeat. This is textbook defeatism. Question is to what extent are you open to acknowledging the irrationality of this position? If you are absolutely convinced that the world is against you, then, I'm afraid, there's nothing any of us can do or say that would change your perspective and all we are doing here is enabling and reaffirming your defeatism. If, on the other hand, you recognise that your pessimism and defeatism is a problem, then you can look for practical ways to deal with it. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that I, or others here, will have answers for you and be able to resolve your issues, but it does mean that there are resources out there that could potentially guide you do a different outlook on life.
That's not an opinion, that's what I've observed. For every 5 people, there might be 1 who will get where you're coming from and empathize with you. That's just 20% of the population. The remaining 80% think you're just a weirdo and don't want anything to do with you. I don't know what your personal problems are, but as someone with a speech impediment and OCD, this is what I've experienced. Maybe you've had a different experience so see things differently.

I can tell you from my experiences, whenever I've tried to socially self improve and practice talking to people, they'd rather I stopped talking. So to follow the general advice on this thread and '' keep trying and not be a defeatist ''....that would be keep talking to people when they want you to stop talking.
DukeDuck is offline  
post #51 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 02:07 PM
SAS Member
 
Sheska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorchedEarth View Post
Perhaps they're operating under the correct assumption that they have to work hard to accomplish the same things that almost everyone else does effortlessly as a stepping stone to their real ambitions. It's not an excuse if it's a demonstrable reality.
Different things require different amounts of effort from different people. OP used someone with Asperger's as an example... Well, one who's diagnosed with Asperger's may have to put more effort into their social interactions than someone who is neurotypical, and you're right, this may indeed be a demonstrable reality. But it is not something that can be generalised to "most" of the populations. For starters, Asperger's is a spectrum disorder, meaning some people have it easier or harder than others. Then it seems like women with Asperger's are much better at adapting and masking than men. Not only that but there are plenty of things that someone with Asperger's would excel at and require much less effort to do than someone who is neurotypical. In addition, someone who's neurotypical may have had a traumatic experience that left them unable to socialise full stop, in which case even a person on the lower end of the spectrum might have it "easier" than their neurotypical counterpart.

All things are relative, and as someone who recognises the need for nuance OP should be able to understand this. The issue, however, is not that OP has a hard time accomplishing things but that, according to them, everything they "do ends up in failure" with nature/universe conspiring against them. This is the irrational self-fulfilling part. Not the fact that someone might have to work harder on certain things than another person, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
Sheska is offline  
post #52 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 02:12 PM
SAS Member
 
Sheska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDuck View Post
That's not an opinion, that's what I've observed.
Your experience is not representative of the world population. It is not a fact about said population. It is your subjective and highly biased interpretation of a personal experience. You can't extrapolate that to "most of the outside world."
Sheska is offline  
post #53 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 09:41 PM
SAS Member
 
Denwil24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Leduc AB
Gender: Male
Posts: 319
I think its a mindset, some people are just on auto pilot/ flow through life mode. Things go near perfect for some ppl but they take it for granted because they dont know any better. Then you have people who have been on cloud 9 forever, i call it fairytale land.
Denwil24 is offline  
post #54 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-03-2020, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
Duke Duck
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,474
My Mood: Relaxed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheska View Post
OP has a hard time accomplishing things but that, according to them, everything they "do ends up in failure" with nature/universe conspiring against them. This is the irrational self-fulfilling part. Not the fact that someone might have to work harder on certain things than another person, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
[/FONT]
Well that's what happens when everything you try comes crashing down because of some reason or another. Without going into much detail, a few years back I put all my heart and soul into building something (with the help of another person, but it was still me doing 99% of the work). After months of building it every day, it ended up working and had tremendous potential. But that same person wrecked the entire thing and it died in one day. Before it even had a chance to begin.

It's hard to keep going when nearly everything you've tried has followed this pattern.
DukeDuck is offline  
post #55 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 07:21 AM
SAS Member
 
Sheska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDuck View Post
Well that's what happens when everything you try comes crashing down because of some reason or another.
I strongly doubt this. In fact, I would bet that it's next to impossible to fail at everything. And even if you did fail at everything (which is an absurd notion, since you simply wouldn't exist to even try), it would still not be evidence of the universe conspiring against you.

Not only that but you are not the most reliable narrator of the events, as your perceptions are so heavily skewed toward pessimism and defeatist interpretations. Saying you put "a lot of effort" into something is devoid of any information by which any of us here can realistically assess the risk of failure, adequacy of your efforts, and whether or not you stood any chance of success. It is for this reason that I remain skeptical of your efforts. Please understand that I am not saying that you are exaggerating or that you don't experience distress because of your experiences. What I am saying is that your account of the events is heavily biased and unreliable and because of that it is impossible to comment on the soundness of your observations/interpretations, specifically whether or not any of your failures were avoidable and what, if anything, can be done to improve your chances of success in the future.

To go back to the main subject of your thread. I do not believe in luck as some sort of outside force that arbitrarily affects people's fortunes, to me that's just nonsense. The way I see things - a person has to first register an event, establish a relationship between said event and their life or immediate circumstances (or the life or circumstances of another person observed), this event has to have some discernable impact on the person, which then can be subjectively judged to be either favourable or unfavourable to the person in question. Luck is just a sense of agency that some people bestow upon the most notable of the consequences of such events and their subjective value.

To illustrate how unreliable, and context dependent our subjective interpretations of the events are, here's an old Taoist story:

Quote:
A man named Sei Weng owned a beautiful mare, which was praised far and wide. One day this beautiful horse disappeared. The people of his village offered sympathy to Sei Weng on his great misfortune. Sei Weng said simply, “That’s the way it is.”

A few days later the lost mare returned, followed by a beautiful wild stallion. The village congratulated Sei Weng on his good fortune. He said, “That’s the way it is.”

Some time later, Sei Weng’s only son, while riding the stallion, fell off and broke his leg. The village people once again expressed their sympathy at Sei Weng’s misfortune. Sei Weng again said, “That’s the way it is.”

Soon thereafter, war broke out and all the young men of the village, except Sei Weng’s lame son, were drafted and were killed in battle. The village people were amazed at Sei Weng’s good luck. His son was the only young man left alive in the village. But Sei Weng kept his same attitude: despite all the turmoil, gains and losses, he gave the same reply, “That’s the way it is.”
Sheska is offline  
post #56 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 10:08 AM
SAS Member
 
ScorchedEarth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: State Home for the Ugly
Age: 33
Posts: 4,839
My Mood: Fine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheska View Post
Different things require different amounts of effort from different people. OP used someone with Asperger's as an example... Well, one who's diagnosed with Asperger's may have to put more effort into their social interactions than someone who is neurotypical, and you're right, this may indeed be a demonstrable reality. But it is not something that can be generalised to "most" of the populations. For starters, Asperger's is a spectrum disorder, meaning some people have it easier or harder than others. Then it seems like women with Asperger's are much better at adapting and masking than men. Not only that but there are plenty of things that someone with Asperger's would excel at and require much less effort to do than someone who is neurotypical. In addition, someone who's neurotypical may have had a traumatic experience that left them unable to socialise full stop, in which case even a person on the lower end of the spectrum might have it "easier" than their neurotypical counterpart.

All things are relative, and as someone who recognises the need for nuance OP should be able to understand this. The issue, however, is not that OP has a hard time accomplishing things but that, according to them, everything they "do ends up in failure" with nature/universe conspiring against them. This is the irrational self-fulfilling part. Not the fact that someone might have to work harder on certain things than another person, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
Oh, I wasn't referring to OP, and I agree it's best to be analytical and realistic rather than just attributing failure to some mystical force or cosmic conspiracy. Reality is bleak enough anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheska View Post
Then it seems like women with Asperger's are much better at adapting and masking than men. Not only that but there are plenty of things that someone with Asperger's would excel at and require much less effort to do than someone who is neurotypical.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Those are likely overgeneralizations too, and not applicable to everyone affected. Imagine being stuck with all the debilitating effects of a disorder and none of the alleged benefits. Parents thinking you would be some kind of savant if you really tried when, really, you're just a cripple. Or people thinking you can get something at the drop of a hat just because you were born as a certain race or sex when in actuality there's something in your life that renders your supposed advantage moot. One more reason to look at the individual and their individual circumstances and ignore the gender/sex/race or whatever other label.
ScorchedEarth is offline  
post #57 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 10:12 AM
SAS Member
 
veron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorchedEarth View Post
Perhaps they're operating under the correct assumption that they have to work hard to accomplish the same things that almost everyone else does effortlessly as a stepping stone to their real ambitions. It's not an excuse if it's a demonstrable reality.
Ok. One might have to work hard to accomplish something that most everyone else does effortlessly, but nobody has to work hard at every single thing that others do effortlessly. For example, someone with SA has to put in a lot of effort to make friends. But another person with great social skills might have to work hard to pass math in school. Or they might have health issues and have to take special precautions in life, things that other people never even think about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeDuck View Post
How do you know? This is one of those atheism vs agnostic debates. You don't know for certain whether this is how it works.
Well, that's like arguing that there's an invisible elephant in the room. Nobody knows for sure. What I do know is that it's not scientifically proven that the universe watches over certain people, while it conspires against others. I don't know anybody who has had everything easy in life. If you think you know people like this, you must know them only on a superficial level.
veron is offline  
post #58 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 10:27 AM
SAS Member
 
Sheska's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScorchedEarth View Post
Those are likely overgeneralizations too, and not applicable to everyone affected.
They are indeed and made entirely with the goal of demonstrating that populations are not as homogeneous as one might first consider. What might be true for one individual may not be true for another, even if their general circumstances are the same.
Sheska is offline  
post #59 of 59 (permalink) Old 12-04-2020, 10:34 AM
Moderator
 
WillYouStopDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: United States
Gender: Male
Age: 47
Posts: 32,980
My Mood: Relaxed
OK. This has gone on long enough and everyone has had their say. Not much more to be said here. Closed.

Quote:
Who Has It Worse

This site is not a competition - it's not about whose particular brand of suffering is the worse, who suffers more than whom, or who has the right to call their problems Social Anxiety. This includes comparisons of suffering between the genders. The belittlement of others' suffering will not be tolerated. "Body shaming" posts are not acceptable as many other users have similar body types or concerns, and will also negatively identify. Many users struggle with body issues, eating disorders and appearance related anxiety and we encourage helpful support and positive discussion in making efforts to improve, not dwell on or discuss in frustration what is considered ugly or unwanted.

/WYSD
WillYouStopDave is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome