Disorders and mental illnesses are not innate in most cases - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 05:43 AM Thread Starter
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Disorders and mental illnesses are not innate in most cases


I find it annoying when people say that they are or that it's some kind of unexplored area and nobody knows the reason for sure because it's not true at all.

General point of view is that some people won ‘’genetic lottery’’ and others didn’t and they’re doomed forever. They can only reduce that by being on medications for their entire lives.

I think for those who talk like that about themselves it's about not knowing the reason why they feel different from other people, that they’re wrong and why it happens to them. It's just that a trauma that caused that takes place in childhood, sometimes in very early phases of it, even when you’re a newborn and then it continues with the family dynamic. People usually find things they’re exposed to from childhood normal because how can they know an alternative? They were children and it was their first experience with the world. Their caregivers were ultimate authorities to them.

For general population it’s an excuse for not doing anything about it as a society, not bothering with these people and underlying problems for their disorders which are societal. There’s some kind of social Darwinism climate around it, i.e. no one can do anything about it and it’s your fault, you’re a flawed inadaptable organism. You will live a ****ty life because you were born this way and you were genetically prepositioned for it. You’re genetic trash, a flawed bunch of genes. People who don’t have your problems are ‘’genetically suitable for reproduction’’ and therefore they deserve a all the good treatment because they ‘’succeeded genetically'', it's sone kind of ''genetical achievment'' even though not all people are willing to have children, let alone only one kind of relaitonships has a potential of having children, not all of them. Everything is about genes are reproduction, it drives literally everything, other things are secondary. Well, guess what? Children can become mentally ill from mentally ill parents but not in a way you think they can. Because it's not about genes and what's ''innate'', but about what you provide for a child, including what you provide for them emotionally and their relationships with you. For example, if a mother is mentally healthy she can still **** up her children if she's not ready/able to provide all those things for them and/or doesn't have a good support.

Another problem is when the population still thinks it’s innate, but they make people with disorders build their identity around their disorders because it’s some case of ‘’neurodiversity’’ as they think. These people’s got good intentions but it doesn’t really help people with mental illnesses to address their causes, their flawed ideas that come from their mental illnesses and change more drastically and become more mentally healthy.

There’s another group of people who think people can overcome their disorders by will and they’re ‘’in their head’’. They blame these people and they advise them to do something only a healthy person is able to do, but not a person with mental illness/childhood trauma. For example that I can think of, they can tell you you should find some strengh within yourself, ''love yourself and people will like you'' and etc. If they have a childhood trauma, they can't do that because they were never exposed to good treatment from their caregivers (which is the most important thing that shapes our brains and future relationships) and then from other people and the world.

Many mentally healthy people demonize or dehumanize mentally ill ones and engage in black and white thinking. I know you’re not supposed to personally help them, but what about basic compassion and respect as long as your healthy personal boundaries stay intact? It's possible. Why should they be respectful of you if you’re not respectful of them while you’ve got more resources for it? So we’re in another ‘’not fair’’ situation here. Healthy, most resourceful majority dictates the rules for everybody.

It also makes people with mental illnesses believe in it and feel worse about themselves than they could. It makes them have a dehumanizing self-hatred for themselves, think of themselves as some ''doomed'' ''genetic material''. And that they don't deserve a better life and better treatment, that they're doomed for life and they'll never be able to change and there's no point in it cause they're ''inferiour'' to those ''better people''.

It's so frustrating when people think of many things as ''innate'' when they aren't. But it's a convinient thought to have. What a shame it's a general tendency, a belief that influences a lot in society, not just what some people think.
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 01:21 AM
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A pleasure to read, I feel better already. I think most people are just closed minded and don't bother researching deeper into this and just believe what other close minded people say. It's invigorating to my soul to see more open minded people who research deeper into this part of the human condition. Lots of people do and can heal from short term medication, psychotherapy, even CBT and new life experiences. If people believe it's their fault because it's innate or they're born with it, then that belief can hinder the chances of hope that they can get better.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 11:07 AM
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Stress during childhood elevates cortisol levels, which affects brain development. It stunts the growth of the hippocampus and frontal cortex and the amygdala grows larger than normal. It also affects your worldview and can result in learning disabilities and other problems.

If your mother was stressed out during pregnancy, you were probably born with those problems since cortisol can permeate the embryonic sac. In those cases, your problems were innate; you were born with them.

Whether you were born f-ed up or became f-ed up because of environmental factors is somewhat irrelevant. Often, the only way to deal with those problems when your brain didn't develop normally is with medications.

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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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A pleasure to read, I feel better already. I think most people are just closed minded and don't bother researching deeper into this and just believe what other close minded people say. It's invigorating to my soul to see more open minded people who research deeper into this part of the human condition. Lots of people do and can heal from short term medication, psychotherapy, even CBT and new life experiences. If people believe it's their fault because it's innate or they're born with it, then that belief can hinder the chances of hope that they can get better.
Exactly!

Glad to hear you feel better!

Most of my life I thought something was wrong with me. This is something other people would constantly point out as well. And of course they meant it in a very negative way most of the time. It's so difficult to live your whole life with it. It's so easy to perceive it as a definition of yourself and internalize it, especially if you have no support or/and didn't have any support during your whole life, no one helped you. And when everyone is biased against it and uneducated about it. It's paralyzing.

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Stress during childhood elevates cortisol levels, which affects brain development. It stunts the growth of the hippocampus and frontal cortex and the amygdala grows larger than normal. It also affects your worldview and can result in learning disabilities and other problems.

If your mother was stressed out during pregnancy, you were probably born with those problems since cortisol can permeate the embryonic sac. In those cases, your problems were innate; you were born with them.

Whether you were born f-ed up or became f-ed up because of environmental factors is somewhat irrelevant. Often, the only way to deal with those problems when your brain didn't develop normally is with medications.
When people say ''innate'' they usually mean it's genetic and doomed somehow. Mother's stress is still an environmental factor, it doesn't mean that you're essentially flawed or different from healthy people the way this ''genes'' thing does. It means that something happened that you and your mother couldn't control and it's about circumstances. It also means that we influence each other a lot, we're not some rigid robots genetically preprogrammed for certain destiny and therefore it's not dehumanizing.

Medications work temporarily because the main problem is not levels of your hormones without a context, but the way you were nurtured, i.e. human relations. So the long-term ultimate solution is therapy. It won't erase all those ****ed up years of person's life and won't turn back time to let them start completely anew but it will help them improve a lot and resolve their traumas/issues and it will partially give them what they weren't given earlier so that they'll internalize this experience and will start to take care of themselves same way as healthy people do. This is because of neuroplasticity.

And yeah you'll probably reply with something about cortisol again, but if it was affected then they needed special nurturing as babies and they most likely didn't get it because their caregiver didn't know and couldn't recognize those needs. Also since their mother was under stress she would probably not be able to react to those needs appropriately. If she was still stressed she wouldn't react appropriately even to a baby that wouldn't have those problems. It depends on the baby's temperament though. Temperament per se is, again, neutral. It can't be flawed or make you prepositioned for mental illness.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:02 PM
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When people say ''innate'' they usually mean it's genetic and doomed somehow.
"Innate" means your born with it.

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:30 PM
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I basically agree with you, @SorryForMyEnglish . I think there's far too much emphasis on biology these days and an appalling lack of interest in the cognitive level of human experience.

Like @Maslow says, genetic or environmental factors can lead to neurological changes that make it more difficult for a person to cope. Different combinations of genetics and environmental factors will lead to different types of development, and we classify these as various forms of neurodiversity. This is the level of hardware. Medication is used to intervene at this level to try to make up for neurological lacks.

But if you stop there you're only getting half the picture; far, far too many people stop there at the level of hardware. You have to take into consideration the cognitive level as well -- the particular way you've been taught to think about things by culture, your family, etc. That's the software level. The level of concepts. And it's possible to intervene in a person's life at that level in positive ways regardless of the limitations of their hardware.

There may be certain kinds of deficits that can't be fixed at the software level (you probably can't teach a psychopath empathy, for example) but many people can be taught ways of thinking about themselves and their situation that enable them to cope with their deficits to lead productive, relatively normal lives in spite of their hardware issues. It makes a very big difference, for example, whether the way you think leads you to hate yourself or accept yourself and that happens at the level of cognition, not biology.

Schizophrenia and anxiety disorders run in my family. My "hardware" (neurotype) is prone to certain kinds of malfunction. I will probably always be more susceptible to falling into fearful and delusional states than the average person. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I am less healthy than a person of a different neurotype. If I'm running better software (ie. if I have healthier concepts and thinking habits) I may be less dysfunctional that a person with better hardware but worse software. This is analogous to a person with lactose intolerance (for example) being healthier than a person without lactose intolerance because they eat healthier and exercise.

One of the worst beliefs you can have is biological fatalism. Humans are more than biology. They stopped being purely biological creatures when they became self-aware millions of years ago.

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:35 PM
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"Innate" means your born with it.
But most mental disorders are not innate! They arise out of inner turmoil in an attempt to ensure the best mode of action for our psyche's interaction with the world. It's like a reaction. Yeah prematurely experiencing too much cortisol can really rev you up to no good. You become so tethered to this way of reacting each time that it becomes a part of you.

The way you are may seem abnormal to others and you seem you can't get through to them. Then the therapy feels like it cuts you in pieces and patches you up into something much more alien. Some people don't want to get better, they enjoy being afflicted because it's so deep it's become part of who they are. Like I can't see a world without my own afflictions, I don't want to get better 100%, and I feel more real being like this.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 07:43 PM
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Just to be clear are you saying you think genetics has no influence? Admitting that genes have an influence doesn't mean admitting people are doomed either. And frankly, genetic engineering is a very important field that shouldn't be neglected because of postmodernism.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 08:29 PM
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Some people don't want to get better, they enjoy being afflicted because it's so deep it's become part of who they are.
I don't actually think this is true, though it seems that way sometimes.

I believe people always act in the way that they believe will result in the least amount of pain. If a person "refuses to change" it's because, in their honest opinion, changing would make their life more painful, not less. Their explanations may sound like rationalizations, and be very irrational, but their feeling that change will lead to an increase in pain is very real.

I don't think it's fair to accuse anyone of "not wanting to change" (I'm not saying you're doing this, btw; I'm just speaking in a general sense) because I think doing so is very presumptuous; it implies we know more about their circumstances than they do, which is frankly impossible. If a person doesn't want to change it's because, in their present circumstances, given their current beliefs, they believe change would lead to a more painful existence than the one that they have. And I don't think we can justly criticize a person for avoiding a more painful existence.

What we should do, instead, is try to help them change their circumstances or beliefs in ways that make change desirable. At that point, they will change because they will be glad to reduce the amount of pain they experience.

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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 09:21 PM
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But most mental disorders are not innate! They arise out of inner turmoil in an attempt to ensure the best mode of action for our psyche's interaction with the world. It's like a reaction. Yeah prematurely experiencing too much cortisol can really rev you up to no good. You become so tethered to this way of reacting each time that it becomes a part of you.

The way you are may seem abnormal to others and you seem you can't get through to them. Then the therapy feels like it cuts you in pieces and patches you up into something much more alien. Some people don't want to get better, they enjoy being afflicted because it's so deep it's become part of who they are. Like I can't see a world without my own afflictions, I don't want to get better 100%, and I feel more real being like this.
Like I said earlier, during your first few years of development, stress affects your brain structure. It can make you prone to depression, ADD, learning disabilities, memory problems... all of which affect the way you're treated throughout your life; it affects your environment.

Some people aren't adversely affected by growing up in a stressful environment. They must have some kind of immunity or maybe they have people in their lives that compensate for the maltreatment or whatever is causing the stress.

As far as therapy, talking about your problems has limited effectiveness. You need things that make you feel good about yourself, such as healthy relationships, a successful career, pleasure, accomplishments... But when you have psychological and emotional problems, those things can be elusive, which makes you feel lonely and hurts your self-esteem because you can't accomplish the things your want to.

Someday, we'll be able to go to a doctor's office and have our brains manipulated to function more effectively. They'll be able to stimulate the parts of the brain responsible for pleasure. I look forward to that day.

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 09:24 PM
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@truant Yeah that's it exactly. There is always alot of irrational fear which feels real to someone before change, which usually goes away for me after I pass it and then I feel better about the course of action I took. Yeah it's like the crab that grows and needs a bigger shell so it travels to find a bigger shell and so on. Yeah<3
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-05-2018, 10:20 PM
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Like I said earlier, during your first few years of development, stress affects your brain structure. It can make you prone to depression, ADD, learning disabilities, memory problems... all of which affect the way you're treated throughout your life; it affects your environment.

Some people aren't adversely affected by growing up in a stressful environment. They must have some kind of immunity or maybe they have people in their lives that compensate for the maltreatment or whatever is causing the stress.
How do those people compensate for you if they can't alter you neurologically? Isn't it reasonable to assume that many of those people have "immunity" because they have been taught to think about themselves and their experiences in ways which are adaptive and others lack that immunity because they have been taught to think in ways that are maladaptive?

If Parent A repeatedly tells their child that they love them and that they are a worthwhile person and Parent B repeatedly tells their child that they hate them and that they are a worthless person will these children develop differently? Or will their identical innate biology lead them to feel exactly the same way about themselves regardless of what their parent says? Is parenting useless? Is education useless? How does non-physical bullying affect a person except by altering how a person sees themselves in relation to other people? This is largely a cognitive process. People feel bad about themselves because they have been taught to feel bad about themselves.

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As far as therapy, talking about your problems has limited effectiveness. You need things that make you feel good about yourself, such as healthy relationships, a successful career, pleasure, accomplishments... But when you have psychological and emotional problems, those things can be elusive, which makes you feel lonely and hurts your self-esteem because you can't accomplish the things your want to.
I have none of those things. If I paid attention to what I'm "supposed" to feel good about I'd have no reason to feel good about myself at all. There are many people out there who want me to feel very badly about myself. So why don't I? It's not because I have some innate resistance. I used to have very poor self-esteem, just like most of the people on this site. I haven't changed neurologically. My circumstances are actually much worse than they used to be. But my self-esteem is better than it's ever been. Because I think about everything very differently than I used to.

Talk therapy is difficult and time-consuming and many therapists are apparently not very good at it but I think it's wrong to jump from that to the conclusion that it's useless, as many people here do. I honestly don't really see any limits to its potential if happiness is your goal as opposed to neuroarchitectural perfection. People don't have to be perfect, successful, or well-liked to be happy. We're just conditioned to believe these are prerequisites.

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 03:09 PM
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Like I said earlier, during your first few years of development, stress affects your brain structure. It can make you prone to depression, ADD, learning disabilities, memory problems... all of which affect the way you're treated throughout your life; it affects your environment.

Some people aren't adversely affected by growing up in a stressful environment. They must have some kind of immunity or maybe they have people in their lives that compensate for the maltreatment or whatever is causing the stress.

As far as therapy, talking about your problems has limited effectiveness. You need things that make you feel good about yourself, such as healthy relationships, a successful career, pleasure, accomplishments... But when you have psychological and emotional problems, those things can be elusive, which makes you feel lonely and hurts your self-esteem because you can't accomplish the things your want to.

Someday, we'll be able to go to a doctor's office and have our brains manipulated to function more effectively. They'll be able to stimulate the parts of the brain responsible for pleasure. I look forward to that day.
I very much agree with the bolded as I have met similar people on numerous occasions. Most had in common the ability to be cat-like in their ability not to take much personally. This was not something they practiced as some I've known for over 50 years and they have always been this way.

I'm not sure I believe in the notion of changing oneself. I have never met anyone who really changed. Rather I believe in finding a way to express who you have always been without hesitation (changing back?) (which, I guess could be considered a change?) That is an extremely difficult practice if, like me, you've always abandoned yourself as a way to be "ok." I'm currently looking for reading material in this vein. Of course, different strokes for different folks but this is, no doubt, the path for me. Precious little time left though.

...you gotta keep the goal in mind, develop tunnel vision to a certain extent. it's hard, and it's not for everyone.

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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 03:29 PM
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I've been pondering about this too. If people don't have enough information as to why they have a certain anxiety disorder, its dangerous to jump to conclusions.


I don't think everyone who assumes their problems are genetic, are doing so as a way of escaping and giving up...........though its easy to fall into that trap. I don't know what caused my anxiety disorders and problems. But I do know that its something that needs to be constantly tackled. There might not be a permanent cure for it, but I'm determined to keep fighting it.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 03:48 PM
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I very much agree with the bolded as I have met similar people on numerous occasions. Most had in common the ability to be cat-like in their ability not to take much personally. This was not something they practiced as some I've known for over 50 years and they have always been this way.
I think it helps if you have a healthy social support network where you know that no matter what happens, you'll still have people who love you. Without that, life has no stability, and little things can throw your entire life out of whack.

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I'm not sure I believe in the notion of changing oneself. I have never met anyone who really changed. Rather I believe in finding a way to express who you have always been without hesitation (changing back?) (which, I guess could be considered a change?) That is an extremely difficult practice if, like me, you've always abandoned yourself as a way to be "ok." I'm currently looking for reading material in this vein. Of course, different strokes for different folks but this is, no doubt, the path for me. Precious little time left though.
You can change certain aspects of who you are, such as improving your communication skills or expanding your interests, but yeah, your core self doesn't change. Or you can put up a facade and pretend to be someone you're not. I've been able to do that for short periods... pretend to be a guy who really had his sheet [sic] together, and people seemed to like me when I was like that. But I can't keep it going for more than a few weeks or so before my true, insecure self comes out. I'm not able to do that anymore. But that would be the real me if I wasn't so farked [sic] up.

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 04:03 PM
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I have none of those things. If I paid attention to what I'm "supposed" to feel good about I'd have no reason to feel good about myself at all. There are many people out there who want me to feel very badly about myself. So why don't I? It's not because I have some innate resistance. I used to have very poor self-esteem, just like most of the people on this site. I haven't changed neurologically. My circumstances are actually much worse than they used to be. But my self-esteem is better than it's ever been. Because I think about everything very differently than I used to.
You're a successful writer, from what I remember. Accomplishments can definitely improve your self-esteem -- especially if it brings in decent money.

I think a lot of feeling bad about yourself is wanting to accomplish things but failing over and over. After a while, you lose hope. I haven't lost all hope, but close to it. Sometimes I feel like Nowhere Man, "making all his nowhere plans for nobody."

Nobody loves me but my dog, and I think he might be jivin', too.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 06:15 PM
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You're a successful writer, from what I remember. Accomplishments can definitely improve your self-esteem -- especially if it brings in decent money.

I think a lot of feeling bad about yourself is wanting to accomplish things but failing over and over. After a while, you lose hope. I haven't lost all hope, but close to it. Sometimes I feel like Nowhere Man, "making all his nowhere plans for nobody."
I'm the least-successful author I know. I make almost no money and I don't have a single fan that I'm aware of, aside from my friend (who doesn't count, apologies to my friend). I'm essentially a washed-up 46-year-old who still dreams of their garage band making it big. I'm pathetic, not inspiring. The sort of person people make jokes about.

By your own logic, my experience as a writer should make me feel worse about myself, not better.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-06-2018, 08:03 PM
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I'm the least-successful author I know. I make almost no money and I don't have a single fan that I'm aware of, aside from my friend (who doesn't count, apologies to my friend). I'm essentially a washed-up 46-year-old who still dreams of their garage band making it big. I'm pathetic, not inspiring. The sort of person people make jokes about.

By your own logic, my experience as a writer should make me feel worse about myself, not better.
Well, it's tough to make it as a writer. I still dream of making it as a songwriter, but that's just a pipedream. If I ever got a band to record one of my songs, I'd be thrilled, but not having one do that doesn't hurt my self-esteem because I know how tough it is to make it in the music business.

Now, not making it as a software engineer is a different story. I had the education, the ability, and the jobs. I just couldn't handle working with people.

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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"Innate" means your born with it.
I know what it means. I also know what people usually mean by that. Stop being so picky on my words.

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Like I said earlier, during your first few years of development, stress affects your brain structure. It can make you prone to depression, ADD, learning disabilities, memory problems... all of which affect the way you're treated throughout your life; it affects your environment.
What you said is also environment that already affects you.

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Some people aren't adversely affected by growing up in a stressful environment. They must have some kind of immunity or maybe they have people in their lives that compensate for the maltreatment or whatever is causing the stress.
There's no ''immunity'' to that. Everyone is affected. It's just that some people are more affected to that because of their temperamental sensitivity. But it's not a preposition for mental illness because they're also affected by positive influence and environment more than other people https://hsperson.com/research/published-articles/

And yeah if they have other caregivers that are regularly present in their lifes and they regularly see them and nurture them and they're good enough to them then that can ease the maltreatment or stress depending on circumstances.

It all actually depends on circumstances and nuances.

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As far as therapy, talking about your problems has limited effectiveness. You need things that make you feel good about yourself, such as healthy relationships, a successful career, pleasure, accomplishments... But when you have psychological and emotional problems, those things can be elusive, which makes you feel lonely and hurts your self-esteem because you can't accomplish the things your want to.
Mostly people with childhood traumas can't do that. Because the relationship pattern they had in childhood with their primary caregiver(s) was perpetuated in their brains. They don't have at least emotional resources for seeking the good. It can slowly change in a long-term therapy where you can get something that those healthy people got in childhood and you didn't. When you internalize the good treatment you start to treat yourself good.

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Someday, we'll be able to go to a doctor's office and have our brains manipulated to function more effectively. They'll be able to stimulate the parts of the brain responsible for pleasure. I look forward to that day.
No manipulation needs to be done because some of it is already possible in long-term therapy where the therapist is supportive and where they respond to client's emotional needs.

It's such an alienated way to think of the cure as some ''brain manipulation for us to function effectively'' because relationships influence us the most. And the cure is through relationship/attachment, but a safe one because it's performed by a professional. Of course, that doesn't exclude confronting client's psychological defenses and working on their issues on the basis of respect and full acceptance.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-08-2018, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
Just to be clear are you saying you think genetics has no influence? Admitting that genes have an influence doesn't mean admitting people are doomed either. And frankly, genetic engineering is a very important field that shouldn't be neglected because of postmodernism.
Postmodernism? What does it have to...

Also we're most close to lobsters and they're hierarchial. We should build our society based on them

What influence do genetics have? Yeah I'm saying they have no influence because when they have it's extremely rare, but many people have childhood traumas and mental illnesses.

I also don't assume that if some people have the same disorder as some of their family members then it's always because the disorder is ''in their genes''. I can't talk for everybody and everything 100% though. It's just the way it is in my case. For examle, both my mother and my father are schizoid. I don't have this personality/disorder because it's in my genes, but because of attachement model in family. Schizoid mother is cold and distant (can be intruding at the same time though). She can also hate the child or not to want an already born child especially when her husband turned out to be abusive and drinking during her pregnancy. As a schizoid she's got low energy because her own extroverted mother was hateful to her and she gave bith to her only because she learnt women are supposed to have family with children, but actually she wasn't suitable for that role. My father just dumped both my mother and me many years ago because, again, as a schizoid he never feels connected to anyone. This was also the reason for him not to participate in nurturing along with gender expectations and socialization. According to psychoanalysis, a child becomes schiziod in cold, distanced and hateful of their existence environment. So it's even a logical consequence I'm the same way as them. That's just shortly speaking.

Genetic engeneering sounds dehumanizing.
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