AvPD vs. social anxiety - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-17-2018, 11:06 PM Thread Starter
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AvPD vs. social anxiety


So I've studied a lot about these two disorders and how they are very similar, with just a few characteristics to differentiate them. What I'd like to know is, for anyone who has been "officially" diagnosed with Avoidant Personality Disorder, what specifically led to the diagnosis? Was it severity, duration, or something else?

Whenever I bring up AvPD to my psychiatrist, he immediately dismisses the idea. He doesn't even give it a second thought, saying that I have "too much of a desire to be around other people" (sometimes I wonder if he even listens to me...). Obviously I cannot self-diagnose myself, but I also think he isn't putting enough consideration into the possibility, or really even trying to understand why I keep asking him about it.

Second question: does the distinction between AvPD and SAD actually matter? Is treatment virtually identical? Same medication, therapy, etc.? Is it simply just a classification thing?

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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 12:29 AM
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I’m officially diagnosed with it, but I don’t remember or know what I said to be diagnosed, sorry.

But I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter. Treatment is probably the same, and a diagnosis doesn’t really change anything. I still feel the same regardless.
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 02:30 AM
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AvPD is related to schizophrenia (along with schizoid and schizotypal,) and at one point they were considered the same diagnosis but were seperated in the 80s I believe.

It seems AvPD is more likely if you have family members with schizophrenia (they are genetically related.)

AvPD doesn't just concern social anxiety but is a pattern of avoidance as a response to anything that makes you uncomfortable.

This paragraph reveals something I've noticed to (from Wikipedia,) talking about social anxiety disorder:

Because of its close relationship and overlapping symptoms, treating people with social phobia may help to understand the underlying connections to other mental disorders. Social anxiety disorder is often linked tobipolar disorder*and*attention deficit hyperactivity disorder*(ADHD) and some believe that they share an underlying cyclothymic-anxious-sensitive disposition.[27][28]*The co-occurrence of ADHD and social phobia is very high; especially when*SCT symptoms*are present.[29]

The above probably applies to AvPD too though. Autism is also genetically related to schizophrenia btw.


However some people who get a SAD diagnoses might not be part of the above set of crap (elevated symptoms that are related to mood disorders, schizotypy, ADHD, autism, and dissociative disorders.) So it's more vague I think.

Does it matter? Yeah the related personality disorders seem to be connected to schizotypy. Is SAD as well? Treating SAD is probably easier than AvPD and it might be that they need different treatments. The differences are probably already blurred to a damaging degree. However I'm sure they.have similar treatments I'm just saying I think they probably shouldn't. Also people with AvPD need a lot more help.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 02:43 AM
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Also whether you get diagnosed with AvPD or SAD probably depends on whether the person diagnosing you treats AvPD more like schizoid-lite, or more like extreme SAD, and what your symptoms are like.

So unless he's talking about behaviour or expressed hesistation it seems like he's treating this as a schizoid thing but with presumably some differences.

So the problem with schizoid, is that the desire to not talk to/bond with people is exaggerated. Very few people seek diagnoses and it's understudied. Some people want to split things into AvPD and schizotypal. I believe you can go from one set to another it's really probably more about the set you most frequently fit into.

So people treat it as kind of a robotic disorder, when really it's more like a strong desire to avoid intimacy because it's uncomfortable, and maintain autonomy, coupled with finding many things understimulating and forming connections internally (fictional worlds/daydreaming.) With a lack of a strong internal identity and a desire to protect the self from engulfment by others or overwhelming stimuli, plus feeling like an alien or like you are observing life from an external viewpoint. And the desire to be around people can fluctuate. There are other more distinctive things though particuarly in how the disorder forms, but it's similar.

Pretty sure I am schizoid (not a walking stereotype and maybe AvPD as well,) and one thing I really related to was the idea that it's kind of like a split between a 'psychopathic' low empathy, cold self, and something very vulnerable and weak and unassertive and sensitive. And often as a result of a long period where you felt undermined or lacking in autonomy or unable to protect yourself (emotionally, not physically and I think this is important,) a part of you grows to resent the vulnerable self and/or want to avoid it. This isn't quite AvPD.. But also not psychopathy (or ASPD,) because that self still exists to be tapped into and to protect others from yourself.

But most dumb things you read are like 'the difference is that schizoids don't want to talk to people but AvPDs do.' Which is simplistic and dumb.

So anyway I'd obviously need to know what you said exactly but it sounds like he just has a different approach to what AvPD is which might be more an attempt to integrate schizoid traits into AvPD. Like I said before there is some desire in the psychological community to get rid of schizoid as an independent personality disorder and split the symptoms into STPD and AvPD.

I feel like there are probably some things that make them distinct though despite some genetic links and overlapping symptoms and shared histories. Even random things like I came across a study recently that showed that schizoids tend to be underweight and AvPD's tend to be overweight (and have opposite weight problems.) It might have been this one but I think there may be multiple.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 03:03 AM
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I think the AvPD traits are disturbingly close to what I experience.
I'm honestly scared I might be diagnosed with it, but I won't bring that up to my therapist. I really hope my self diagnosis is just crap.

Nothing to see here, move along.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 09:56 AM
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Very thorough explanation on these matters; a delight to read.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
AvPD doesn't just concern social anxiety but is a pattern of avoidance as a response to anything that makes you uncomfortable.
This is imo the clearest indicator.

I have an official diagnosis of AvPD despite my SA not being the most severe (on this board by a long way). And this I would consider the standout difference.

My psychologist said she first noticed it when I talked about avoiding getting petrol at the self service pumps, I would put it off for another day, when I could do it that day (I still do this), it isn't the social interaction, its just the potential for ****ing it up somehow, or something (I don't know exactly).

Similarly I will avoid tasks that I am not immediately proficient in (which is most tasks, that's how things are), and I won't try new things.

The treatment is markedly different afaik. AvPD is treated by persuading the patient to try new things and see how they go. SA would be treated with more CBT style interventions, presumably. Obviously there is some overlap.

I should say that my psychologist specialises in personality disorders to some degree, so it could be personal bias that led to that diagnosis, but for me AvPD makes much more sense than SA because my avoidance is so pervasive, applies to non social things, and hilariously I will avoid even if the task doesn't induce much anxiety.


AvPD is long standing adaptation and coping strategy of avoiding that is woven into your core, social phobia is a fear of social interactions.

I consider the two rather distinct personally, despite many saying AvPD is just a worse case of SA.

Oh and the desire to be around people isn't relevant at all imo. I consider myself mildly extroverted, want to be around people all the time, but my life is a catalogue of avoiding things and people.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 12:16 PM
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good information in this thread. thanks.

I am interested in the experiences of ppl with something like AvPD and their careers. because I've avoided starting an actual career for a long time.

:/
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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Very interesting. Thank you for all of the responses so far!

It sounds like I may just be relating to some parts of AvPD and not the disorder as I whole. I know whenever I take any online personality disorder tests, AvPD always comes up as nearly 100% likely (although it's not like those tests are entirely accurate, and it is probably a result of the overlap with SAD anyway).

I'll be going in to see a different doctor soon, and I will hopefully get a much more in-depth diagnosis. I think he specializes in anxiety disorders as well as personality disorders, so he should be able to clear up any other questions I have. I think I have a pretty good understanding now though.

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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 04:38 PM
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It is quite clear to me I have AvPD and not SA because my avoidance goes beyond the social. The things I avoid might well begin being social, but I will (for example) avoid sitting and working in an office even if the entirety of humanity has been replaced with cows (one can only dream). My avoidance is of the place, the atmosphere, it isn't social.

Similarly I grew to avoid submitting WordPress themes to the site I used to sell them on. Why? Because the acceptance criteria was so strict and themes you could spend months on were rejected. Sure, they were rejected by people (so you could say it was social), but this would have applied were the rejection process automated. Fear of rejection = big thing with AvPD. Definite avoidance, not social anxiety, therefore what?

Obviously in the former I would adapt through exposure and the wonderful sexy cows would nurture me with their udders and fine warm breast milk, the pleasures (and nutrition) of which would rapidly diminish the fears build up from office ****s doing office ****ery as per a standard office.

But the distinction remains imo.

As for mental health diagnosis as a joke, there is no way on earth you are going to tell me that a psychopath is just a "social construct" while he is replacing your cute bunny rabbit ear muffs with your balls (still attached). I mean, go for it, but its your funeral.

I have a diagnosed personality disorder (AvPD), I am glad I have this diagnosis because:

1. It better allows for treatment (even though its worse news, its tougher to treat, such is life I would rather know)
2. It better allows others to know what they are dealing with and what burdens I face. When I tell someone with psychological knowledge I have AvPD, their demeanour changes and not in a negative way, they just understand what I have to go through in order to even try to do some of the **** I try to do.

If you eradicate mental health diagnosis, then good luck getting treatment, good luck having people understand your condition, and enjoy your new ear muffs.
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-18-2018, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarpia View Post
No - not at all. I see some bozo has it on a schizophrenia spectrum but that doesn't make it true. I will write what I wrote last year on these psych diagnosis issues:

Mental health diagnoses are a joke. It's really just a label that describes your behavior. And you can go to 5 different shrinks and get 5 different diagnoses. I see a lot of people saying they have 5 different disorders because they have gotten 5 different diagnoses from 5 different shrinks. I got a bunch of possibilities when I was in the loony bin; Schizophrenia, GAD, SAD, avoidant PD, delusional disorder.

There's almost no difference between SAD and AvPD. AvPD just seems like SAD that is impossible to treat because it has become a part of your personality. Think how hard it is for someone to change personailities - just about impossible In fact until a few years ago personality disorders were considered completely untreatable.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/arti...yth-challenged

Here's an article in Mad in America that shows what a joke the psychiatric diagnosis is. In the article it's explained about inter-rater reliability. Inter-rater reliability is measured by a statistic called a kappa score. A score of 1 means perfect inter-rater agreement; a score of 0 indicates zero agreement. In psychosocial research a kappa score of 0.7 or above is generally considered good. Only one DSM-5 “diagnosis” was higher than 0.7 in the field trials. This was major neurocognitive disorder (essentially dementia). Major depressive disorder was 0.32; antisocial personality disorder was 0.22; obsessive compulsive disorder was 0.31; and so on. Even schizophrenia, the flagship “diagnosis,” scored only 0.46.

https://www.madinamerica.com/2013/03...e-a-nose-dive/

And you can see that the reliability of the diagnosis has been getting LOWER every time they publish a new DSM - that's because they keep creating new 'disorders'. That's right - they don't discover mental illnesses, they create them. They just decide by voting if some behavior is a mental illness. It used to be that homosexuality was a mental illness, but because of political backlash they changed that. But now if you argue too much with a sibling you have sibling rivalry disorder. V61.8 Sibling Relational problem

https://books.google.com/books?id=02...roblem&f=false


See the book Saving Normal: An Insider's Revolt Against Out-of-Control Psychiatric Diagnosis, DSM-5, Big Pharma, and the Medicalization of Ordinary Life by psychiatrist Allen Frances, M.D.

Also read The Book of Woe by Gary Greenberg. One of Greenberg’s arguments is that none of the disorders in any of the editions of the DSM are real. Psychiatric diagnoses are constructs which group people according to a range of common symptoms. The counting and naming of everything from personality traits to mental disorders “are all reifications”

Mental 'illnesses are considered "abnormal psychology that doesn't allow you to fit in adequately with society". So "you have a disorder if you have abnormal psychology that doesn't allow you to fit in adequately with society". Basically meaning thoughts are an illness or disorder? Doesn't that make psychiatry a tool of an oppressive government? Governments frequently use psychiatry to imprison people whose ideas they don't like.
I skimmed your post because I know what direction you've gone in (may come back to it later but probably cba.) I know you've taken issue with this before but they're genetically related and if you examine the symptoms of all these disorders you can definitely see how they're like varying shades of the same kind of **** tbh so it's not even weird that they would be really. No need to freak out because you saw the word schizophrenia. Chill.

And like seriously genetics aside it's gotten further removed over time in terms of diagnoses. It used to just be schizoid now (as of 1980) they've separated it into three. Though it looks like they want to make it two.

Honestly I think you take this more seriously than I do. You are talking about this with the person who often refers to disorders as neurotypes. I think these are useful as a starting point for self understanding. It's like one step up from mbti for me lol. Nobody is forcing you to get treatment after all (if anything there are a ton of roadblocks stopping people from getting treatment,) people seek help when they need it and then sometimes don't even bother then. Unless you are actually psychotic and a danger to others or yourself.

edit: I mean you do live in the US, but meanwhile here in the UK you are lucky to get 8-12 weeks cbt (often 6 weeks,) and I was previously told my issues aren't severe enough for medication (that's really not true lol, but perhaps they don't have anything appropriate, and I don't think I want to go on prescription drugs anyway.)
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 04:01 AM
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I got diagnosed with both SA and AvPD. I think she gave me the label AvPD because my coping strategies have always been rooted in avoidance. My thought process with anything is basically "If I don't do it, it can't go wrong either". I've had problems with social anxiety from early childhood, which makes it a personality disorder. Also my anxiety is deeply rooted in my personality, because I have very stubborn negative 'core beliefs' about myself and a low self image. All my anxiety and avoidance is rooted in a fear of rejection, because being rejected "confirms" my negative self image.

So, I think the main difference is for people with SA they could only have anxiety in specific situations or you can develop SA later in life and AvPD is a personality disorder, so you've basically had it since childhood and the anxiety occurs in pretty much every situation.

I think treatment can be slightly different in the way that you can either focus on the anxiety itself, the social situations and your thoughts about those or you can focus on your self image and change your beliefs about yourself (I am ugly/not good enough/weird/not allowed to make mistakes etc.) which should make the anxiety in social situations less as your self image improves. Or you could do both, I guess.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 05:12 AM
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They debate whether AvPD is the severe end of SA. I think basically they overlap a tonne but there might be some qualitative differences when it comes to certain items. Problem is you kind of need to understand stats and factor analyses to really understand this area.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23398095

Quote:
Avoidant personality disorder (AvPD) is regarded as a severe variant of social phobia (SP), consistent with a dimensional model. However, these conclusions are largely drawn from studies based on individuals with SP, with or without comorbid AvPD.... In this sample, the majority of those with AvPD did not also have SP: The authors found 116 persons with AvPD only, 196 with SP only, and 69 with SP+AvPD. There was little difference between any of the groups on sex, marital status, employment, education, or impairment variables. The SP+AvPD group reported more distress and comorbidity than the SP only and AvPD only groups, which did not differentiate from each other. More feared social situations were endorsed in the SP only group compared to the AvPD only group. Although the finding of few differences between SP only and AvPD only groups among the variables measured in this epidemiological survey fails to provide support for the hypothesis of qualitative differences, the finding that the AvPD only group appears more similar to the SP only group than to the SP+AvPD group also fails to provide support for the alternative continuity hypothesis. The greater distress and additional comorbidity with depression associated with SP+AvPD may be due to the additional symptom load of a second disorder rather than simply representing a more severe variant of social phobia.
Also: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29563846

Quote:
The prevailing paradigm subscribes to the "severity continuum hypothesis", in which AVPD is viewed essentially as a severe variant of SAD. However, areas of discontinuity have been described, and there is support for retaining AVPD as a distinct diagnostic category. Recent research has focused on the phenomenology of AVPD, factors of possible etiological significance such as early parenting experiences, attachment style, temperament, and cognitive processing. Self-concept, avoidant behavior, early attachments, and attachment style may represent points of difference from SAD that also have relevance to treatment.
From eyeballing criteria it it looks like SA is a primarily a type of performance anxiety, while AvPD is more focused on the ****ed up cognition around your social identity and therefore, a deeper level of avoidance and more serious problems with relating to people.

https://behavenet.com/diagnostic-cri...-social-phobia

https://behavenet.com/diagnostic-cri...ality-disorder

Also I am looking at the wiki article on AvPD and wondering what the symptoms on that were based on?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoida...ality_disorder

* Hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism
Self-imposed social isolation
Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships[10]
Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
* Feelings of inadequacy
* Drastically reduced or absent self-esteem
* Self-loathing, autophobia or self-harm
* Mistrust of others or oneself; exhibits heightened self-doubt
Emotional distancing related to intimacy
* Highly self-conscious
Self-critical about their problems relating to others
* Heightened attachment-related anxiety, which may include a fear of abandonment[11]
* Problems in occupational functioning
Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
* Feeling inferior to others
* Substance abuse and/or dependence[12][13][14]
In some extreme cases, agoraphobia
Uses fantasy as a form of escapism to interrupt painful thoughts[15][16]

Because notice most of these (the ones I put an asterisk for) are borderline PD traits? And possibly more could be included, I just did the ones I'm sure about. It's almost like BPD turned inwards unless this false information because most isn't referenced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
AvPD doesn't just concern social anxiety but is a pattern of avoidance as a response to anything that makes you uncomfortable.
Where did you get that from ? Because what I've seen is specifically regarding social stuff.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rains View Post
They debate whether AvPD is the severe end of SA. I think basically they overlap a tonne but there might be some qualitative differences when it comes to certain items. Problem is you kind of need to understand stats and factor analyses to really understand this area.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23398095



Also: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29563846



From eyeballing criteria it it looks like SA is a primarily a type of performance anxiety, while AvPD is more focused on the ****ed up cognition around your social identity and therefore, a deeper level of avoidance and more serious problems with relating to people.

https://behavenet.com/diagnostic-cri...-social-phobia

https://behavenet.com/diagnostic-cri...ality-disorder

Also I am looking at the wiki article on AvPD and wondering what the symptoms on that were based on?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoida...ality_disorder

* Hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism
Self-imposed social isolation
Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships[10]
Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus
* Feelings of inadequacy
* Drastically reduced or absent self-esteem
* Self-loathing, autophobia or self-harm
* Mistrust of others or oneself; exhibits heightened self-doubt
Emotional distancing related to intimacy
* Highly self-conscious
Self-critical about their problems relating to others
* Heightened attachment-related anxiety, which may include a fear of abandonment[11]
* Problems in occupational functioning
Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful
* Feeling inferior to others
* Substance abuse and/or dependence[12][13][14]
In some extreme cases, agoraphobia
Uses fantasy as a form of escapism to interrupt painful thoughts[15][16]

Because notice most of these (the ones I put an asterisk for) are borderline PD traits? And possibly more could be included, I just did the ones I'm sure about. It's almost like BPD turned inwards unless this false information because most isn't referenced.



Where did you get that from ? Because what I've seen is specifically regarding social stuff.
Mostly because it seems connected to different anxiety disorders that aren't all based around the same things SA is:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10467971

Quote:
The pattern of social avoidance in SP was more pervasive: it was characterized by a higher level of interpersonal sensitivity and greater severity, associated with psychopathology as well as a higher rate of Axis I comorbidity. By contrast, avoidance of non-routine situations characterized APD occurring in the setting of PDA.
Quote:
ADP is operationally broad, and 'avoidant' as a specifier of a personality type is insufficiently precise. ADP captures avoidant traits --which appear secondary to a core dimension such as interpersonal sensitivity--but is basically a heterogeneous condition influenced by the nature of comorbid Axis I disorders.
Pretty sure you could also have sub clinical levels of SA, generalised anxiety disorder and end up with an avoidant personality. That would be rare though because generally if you have an anxiety disorder you'll have some amount of social anxiety as well. But not necessarily extreme social anxiety that's not really how I'd describe this disorder if it's to be a useful category at all (because social anxiety disorder exists after all.)
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarpia View Post
From the article:
Now You Too Can Be Diagnosed With Schizophrenia!



https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...-schizophrenia




I think they just want everyone on anti-psychotics. They push and push those things all the time and they cause lots of damage.



When I was in a psychiatric hospital pretty much everyone I talked to was on them and there's only a couple diagnosed with schizophrenia although there are those people who have some symptoms because they haven't slept in a week or longer, probably drugs too, which that shouldn't be fixed with antipsychotics. I wonder if the psych gets a kickback or something for prescribing them. He gave them to me the first time I was there too and said "they're for thinking" and second time he diagnosed me with schizophrenia which I'm not. I don't understand how people think psychiatrist have some ultra specialized knowledge to know if you have or need this stuff or whether or how much two conditions are genetically related.

What I saw is there are three cluster or groups of personalities and 9 in total. One of the groups is thought/believed to be personality disorders linked to schizophrenia (schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid - those are the 3 personality disorders in cluster A). AvPD is in a completely different cluster (anxious, fearful disorders) along with dependent personality and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder...then part of the reason why they are in those clusters are because of how often they overlap with other disorders in the cluster.

If you're avoidant of people because of something related to schizoprenia I'd imagine it's just paranoia, which in that case I'd think Paranoid personality disorder would fit better? But I'm just speculating.

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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llodell88 View Post
When I was in a psychiatric hospital pretty much everyone I talked to was on them and there's only a couple diagnosed with schizophrenia although there are those people who have some symptoms because they haven't slept in a week or longer, probably drugs too, which that shouldn't be fixed with antipsychotics. I wonder if the psych gets a kickback or something for prescribing them. He gave them to me the first time I was there too and said "they're for thinking" and second time he diagnosed me with schizophrenia which I'm not. I don't understand how people think psychiatrist have some ultra specialized knowledge to know if you have or need this stuff or whether or how much two conditions are genetically related.

What I saw is there are three cluster or groups of personalities and 9 in total. One of the groups is thought/believed to be personality disorders linked to schizophrenia (schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid - those are the 3 personality disorders in cluster A). AvPD is in a completely different cluster (anxious, fearful disorders) along with dependent personality and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder...then part of the reason why they are in those clusters are because of how often they overlap with other disorders in the cluster.

If you're avoidant of people because of something related to schizoprenia I'd imagine it's just paranoia, which in that case I'd think Paranoid personality disorder would fit better? But I'm just speculating.
This is what I was getting at by the way:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1904485/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2888850/

https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._behaviors_SAB

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/481782

Quote:
There was also an increased risk of avoidant personality disorder in parents of COS probands compared with parents of community control probands. This supports the hypothesis that the schizophrenia spectrum may include avoidant personality disorder, and underscores the importance of recent suggestions%13,35 that avoidant personality disorder be evaluated in future family genetic studies of schizophrenia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizo...idant_behavior


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizo...er#Controversy


Quote:
The original concept of the schizoid character developed by Ernst Kretschmer comprised an amalgamation of avoidant, schizotypal and schizoid traits. It was not until 1980 and the work of Theodore Millon that led splitting the schizoid character into three personality disorders (now schizoid, schizotypal and avoidant). Since then, there has been debate about whether that is accurate or if these traits are different expressions of a single personality disorder.
https://sci-hub.tw/10.1177/070674378603100112

Quote:
Two of these new diagnoses resulted from
the division of DSM-II (2) schizoid personality disorder
into schizoid, schizotypal, and avoidant personality disorders.
Schizoid personality disorder was described in
DSM-II as "shyness, over-sensitivity, seclusiveness,
avoidance of close or competitive relationships, and
eccentricity". In DSM-III, eccentricity became a feature
of schizotypal personality disorder. a category describing
individuals previously regarded as having borderline
schizophrenia. The remaining features of DSM-II schizoid
personality disorder excluding over-sensitivity, were
included in the definition of DS M-III schizoid personality
disorder.

In DSM-III schizoid and avoidant personality disorders
are both characterized by social withdrawal. The
distinction between them "is based on whether or not
there is a defect in the motivation and capacity for emotional
involvement" (p. 378 ). This distinction derives
from Millon (3,4) who suggested that schizoid patients
are passively detached, unconcerned about their detachment,
and insensitive or indifferent to the praise, criticism
or feelings of others, while patients with avoidant personality
disorder actively avoid social contact and are
concerned about their social isolation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizo...sorder#History

Quote:
The term "schizoid" was coined in 1908 by Eugen Bleuler to designate a human tendency to direct attention toward one's inner life and away from the external world, a concept akin to introversion in that it was not viewed in terms of psychopathology. Bleuler labeled the exaggeration of this tendency the “schizoid personality.”[32] He described these personalities as "comfortably dull and at the same time sensitive, people who in a narrow manner pursue vague purposes".[47]

In 1910, August Hoch introduced a very similar concept called the "shut-in" personality. Characteristics of it were reticence, seclusiveness, shyness and a preference for living in fantasy worlds, among others.[47] In 1925 Russian psychiatrist Grunja Sukhareva described a "schizoid psychopathy" in a group of children, resembling today's SPD and Aspergers. About a decade later Pyotr Gannushkin also included Schizoids and Dreamers in his detailed typology of personality types.[62]

Studies on the schizoid personality have developed along two distinct paths. The "descriptive psychiatry" tradition focuses on overtly observable, behavioral and describable symptoms and finds its clearest exposition in the DSM-5. The dynamic psychiatry tradition includes the exploration of covert or unconscious motivations and character structure as elaborated by classic psychoanalysis and object-relations theory.

The descriptive tradition began in 1925 with the description of observable schizoid behaviors by Ernst Kretschmer. He organized those into three groups of characteristics:

unsociability, quietness, reservedness, seriousness, eccentricity

timidity, shyness with feelings, sensitivity, nervousness, excitability, fondness of nature and books

pliability, kindliness, honesty, indifference, silence, cold emotional attitudes.

These characteristics were the precursors of the DSM-III division of the schizoid character into three distinct personality disorders: Schizotypal, avoidant and schizoid. Kretschmer himself, however, did not conceive of separating these behaviors to the point of radical isolation but considered them to be simultaneously present as varying potentials in schizoid individuals. For Kretschmer, the majority of schizoids are not either oversensitive or cold, but they are oversensitive and cold "at the same time" in quite different relative proportions, with a tendency to move along these dimensions from one behavior to the other.
I don't know why AvPD ended up in cluster C. Presumably because that group have better social adjustment (in theory.)
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by llodell88 View Post
When I was in a psychiatric hospital pretty much everyone I talked to was on them and there's only a couple diagnosed with schizophrenia although there are those people who have some symptoms because they haven't slept in a week or longer, probably drugs too, which that shouldn't be fixed with antipsychotics. I wonder if the psych gets a kickback or something for prescribing them. He gave them to me the first time I was there too and said "they're for thinking" and second time he diagnosed me with schizophrenia which I'm not. I don't understand how people think psychiatrist have some ultra specialized knowledge to know if you have or need this stuff or whether or how much two conditions are genetically related.

What I saw is there are three cluster or groups of personalities and 9 in total. One of the groups is thought/believed to be personality disorders linked to schizophrenia (schizoid, schizotypal, paranoid - those are the 3 personality disorders in cluster A). AvPD is in a completely different cluster (anxious, fearful disorders) along with dependent personality and obsessive-compulsive personality disorder...then part of the reason why they are in those clusters are because of how often they overlap with other disorders in the cluster.

If you're avoidant of people because of something related to schizoprenia I'd imagine it's just paranoia, which in that case I'd think Paranoid personality disorder would fit better? But I'm just speculating.
WebMD puts schizotypal personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder, delusional disorder, schizoaffective disorder, and Schizophreniform disorder down as related to schizophrenia.

https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/...topic-overview

But not paranoid personality disorder. But they do mention here " The exact cause of PPD is not known, but it likely involves a combination of biological and psychological factors. The fact that PPD is more common in people who have close relatives with schizophrenia suggests a genetic link between the two disorders."
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/...ality-disorder

You can find any view you want to looking at different shrinks opinions. That's what I always say - go to 10 different shrinks and get 10 different diagnoses. It's all a joke. I had a bunch of tentative diagnoses when I was in the psych hospital. I finally just stopped saying anything but 'the past is in the past' when they asked me questions. the more you say the more diagnoses they will come up with!

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 06:53 AM
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Yeah, I think it's just whatever the researcher/doctor wants it to be. People avoid social interaction for all sorts of reasons whether genetic, or just bad experiences, who knows, if you dig deeper, while those people may share some behaviors that look similar on the outside, there are distinctions between the individuals that are more important. I know myself well enough to know why I avoid socializing and I've read a good bit about schizophrenia and I don't see any of my reasons have anything to do with schizophrenia. I'm not seeing the rationality behind linking avpd and schizophrenia at all, like i said i can see two reasons, paranoia, which would be better explained by other diagnoses, or maybe you just don't enjoy socializing as much causing low motivation to do it. Being overly inhibited, feeling sensitivity to rejection, it's not anything like schizophrenia, it's driven by anxiety and rejection sensitivity mostly, stuff like that.

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 07:04 AM
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@llodell88

1. do you have AvPD though? (I know you have schizophrenia.)

2. It is a distinct disorder that is hypothesised to be part of a spectrum (I can believe it because many members of my immediate and extended family have paranoid, avoidant, schizoid, socially anxious, generalised anxiety traits all kind of mashed up in varying combinations, and I have a cousin with diagnosed schizophrenia.)
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 04-20-2018, 12:55 PM
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For me avpd is caused by my social anxiety.I want to keep my social anxiety low so i avoid any action that i know will increase my stress.I never thought i had avpd i only thought it a side effect of social anxiety.

There is no cure for social anxiety only remission and relapse.
It seems the only way for some sa members to feel good about themselves is to insult other sa members.It gives them a sense of superiority and satisfaction that could never have in their real lives.
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