Why are we socially promoting dark triad personality traits? - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 02:59 AM Thread Starter
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Why are we socially promoting dark triad personality traits?


(This thread will be slightly UK centric, but it is where I'm from.)

It's like they're promoted until they do/say something that just crosses over the line for the people who reward them. In the case of Milo Yiannopoulos that was saying sex between 13 year old's and adult men was fine. I noticed he sort of faded into irrelevance after that point. People scoff at the idea that many of these people are psychopathic 'oh they're just trying to get attention and they haven't murdered anyone' But we know from research that trolls are sadists and higher in dark triad traits as well.

I was thinking about how a lot of weird people (esp autistic,) have this dark humour thing that they develop especially if they're drawn to dark stuff in the first place aesthetically speaking. Seems to be somewhat defensive. I have this thing too. There are many examples of this in fiction and one of the most popular of the last decade is April Ludgate (who was technically written based on Aubrey Plaza so more of a irl example as well in that sense.) So I want to quote something I found in an interview and then some videos:
Quote:
“I did ['The Tonight Show' with Jimmy Fallon] and I had a meltdown,” she says. “I psyched myself out and then afterwards I felt so down. I just wanted to be myself and be comfortable and relaxed, but I was just a total spaz because I couldn’t be comfortable in my own skin. I ended up spazzing out and saying weird things.”

She’s pensive for a bit. “It's a never ending cycle of self-destruction. I think I’m getting better at it, but it’s harder for me to be myself than it is to go be a psychopath on the astral plane on 'Legion.'”

She is, of course, talking about her breakout role on the FX original — a mind-bending take on some of the less mainstream characters in the Marvel universe — that more than proves Plaza is capable of taking on a great diversity of roles. She’s more than just the April Ludgate of “Parks & Recreation” fame.

“You only have so much control over what you get offered and what is available for you to do,” she says. "I’m so heavily associated with [my ‘Parks & Recreation’ character], which I’m fine with. I loved playing that character. But it definitely takes time to change people’s minds.”


I have some of these traits myself but low functioning (we tend to promote high functioning people obviously including psychopaths.) But even then, I've noticed certain people respond positively to negative aspects of my personality, but not just humorous stuff also serious stuff which isn't good.

Some endorse the way things are (those are the true psychopaths,) some think 'well it's inevitable so I'm going to get mine' (socialised into psychopathy,) some are probably just following the general egregore.

This is fine:


This is fine:
Quote:
For much of the 20th century, the gap in incomes between the well-off and less well-off is generally thought to have narrowed in much of the world. In effect, the rich didn’t get much richer while
the poor caught up a bit. According to research based on The World Top Incomes Database, this decline in inequality began in North America and much of Europe in around the 1920 and 1930s and a little later, perhaps the 1950s, in some developing countries. But then, in the 1970s and 1980s, the pattern began to reverse, and inequality began to rise again.
When I look at YT videos of talks Katie Hopkins gives it's full of working class people here in the UK talking about how great she is and how snobby the students are in their reaction to her because they're not responding positively to her psychopathy. I clicked on a Cambridge union video recently and I skipped to a random part of the video just a random part and it was her talking about how she would privatise the NHS if she could.

They seem to think these people have their best interests in mind and most bizarrely of all - are one of them? We have a class system so you can even today fairly easily identify that they are not. It's not America. And most of them don't give a ****.

But there's something else here that's interesting remember when I mentioned the autistic thing? Well Katie Hopkins has an autistic daughter and at this point research suggests some of these psychological traits accumulate together.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...nson-interview

Quote:
“Why didn’t you tell them you have an autistic daughter?” I ask.

“Because if I did they’d think, ‘Maybe Katie does get it then’. So I won’t tell them. I know me. Let them find out for themselves.” Katie pauses. “I often think I don’t see the world on the same plane as everyone else, either. I feel like I’m 90% off, and that’s OK.”

“Give me some examples of how you see the world differently,” I say.

“Just today I was thinking that a lamp gets to stand and a toilet gets to roll,” she says.

“Give me some more examples,” I say.

“I’m just your dancing monkey now, aren’t I?” she says. We laugh. I notice that I’m finding her more charming than I’d anticipated.
More quotes:

Quote:
Ten days after that, like a spree killer growing increasingly frenzied, she provoked an international incident. “Show me bodies floating in water… I still don’t care.” This is how her 17 April column for the Sun about migrants began. Migrants were “a plague of feral humans”, turning British towns into “festering sores”. And then: “Make no mistake, these migrants are like cockroaches… They are built to survive a nuclear bomb.” She suggested drilling holes in the bottom of their boats.
She is odd though I mean even her body language is like she's trying to be a comic book villain, everything she does seems like a performance. Very similar to Milo. like here's some examples It probably is because autistic people tend to mimic people sometimes on autopilot. Doesn't matter though because she's not so autistic that it stops her from being charismatic.

She tends to stick up for The Sun newspaper now that she has a job there, but in the past has criticised tabloid readers for class reasons. Milo did something similar with gamers where there's evidence of him criticising them just months before he decided to exploit gamergate for his own career.
Quote:
Katie Hopkins: ‘I definitely identify with that murderer thing, where you click off’
I can imagine people would take this as a joke. They're more likely to find it amusing if you're genetically female (I know that's how some ****ed up things I say are taken - positively or as humour, or people find it fascinating,) so I imagine Katie Hopkins will have to do a lot more than Milo before people will give a ****. And I do think this is a challenge for her now. 'How far can I push?'

Here's a British female psychopath (diagnosed because we like to diagnose the poor ones, and the kind that decides killing is a fun outlet because that's what low functioning ones do):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterb..._ditch_murders

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25669206

Quote:
"He said 'she will kill him'," Ms White said.

"I said 'don't be silly, she would not do anything like that'."

But she did. When Mr Lee's body was found by a farmer in a ditch near Newborough, he was dressed in a black sequin dress with his buttocks exposed.
Quote:
Mr Lee, it seems, was aware of Dennehy's sexual interests. Before his death, Mr Lee had told a friend that Dennehy had wanted to "dress me up and rape me".

After murdering Mr Lee, Dennehy stabbed John Chapman - described by his family as "a loving brother, brother in law and uncle" - three times in the chest.

The likeliest reason, said Det Ch Insp Brunning, was the 57-year-old had seen Dennehy in the bath and, so the theory goes, laid his eyes upon her body for a little too long.
Quote:
"She didn't seem to be enjoying herself. She just seemed like she was going about business."

Mr Rogers said he fell to the ground but the attack continued. "I was just waiting for it to stop. There was loads and loads of blood on the floor on the ground.

"As I lay there I thought 'this is where I'm going to die'."
If you look into this, I can't find it now but I've read descriptions from her accomplices that describe it as though they were hypnotised or enchanted. Which is believable really, because most people respond very oddly and favourably to dark triad traits.

That's why I think the TV show Jessica Jones works well. Because it's how things work on a microcosmic level, and it's how people respond on a macrocosmic level (eg: in society.) to these traits. And the best part of that show is
 
how her previous experiences with a psychopath have inoculated her against Kilgrave. Because I think you do get better at noticing. Also because she's not a good person herself, but she realises that, which I think is important because it can limit the damage you do.


mm I'm going to leave with this Glenda Jackson video talking about Margaret Thatcher:


There's one point during that speech where she says that during Margaret Thatcher's time in power 'everything that I had been taught to regard as a vice and I still regard them as vices under Thatcherism was in fact a virture.'

Also:

In 2002, twelve years after Margaret Thatcher left office, she was asked at a dinner what was her greatest achievement. Thatcher replied: “Tony Blair and New Labour. We forced our opponents to change their minds.” (Conor Burns, April 11, 2008 )
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post #2 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 03:18 AM
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I guess "weird people" are more excluded by people and social niches. So they care less about more others think, they care less about maintaining social acceptance. It makes them less resistant to explore ideas and attitudes that fit less into the social norm, the more happy and cheery things. So they are more opened to the more deviant things. The dark stuff per say. When others see them expressing these ideals, they feel even more off put by them, thus they become to see by others as even more "weird". So the weird people feel more repulsed by others of seeing them this way. And this just goes deeper and deeper.

The truth is strictly what the ones in power perceives it to be.

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post #3 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-11-2020, 03:33 AM
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post #4 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-14-2020, 12:12 PM
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I always though of dark triads as the bad people of society. Criminals, bad police officers, racists, trolls, incels. But it looks like they can also blend in with society if they're smart enough to imitate a normal person. Yeah I've come across some people that came off strongly with those three patterns of behavior. I don't think having dark humor is an indicator unless you have no empathy. Someone who gets off on drama and gets a kick on putting people down, I'd assume they might be a dark triad. It's an interesting topic.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...y-s-dark-triad

Quote:
People who score high on the traditional Dark Triad measures that test each of the three qualities separately show a pattern of behavior that combines the worst of all worlds. They seek out multiple, casual sex partners. When someone gets in their way, they act out aggressively to take what they want. Oddly enough, although their self-esteem doesn’t seem to be either higher or lower than others, people who score high on the Dark Triad qualities have an unstable view of themselves. Perhaps reflecting the aggressiveness inherent in the Dark Triad, these tendencies are more likely to be shown by men, particularly those who are high on psychopathy and Machiavellianism.
Psychologists are just beginning to discover the darkest sides of the Dark Triad, and there will certainly be more that we learn about the problems they create for others (and themselves) in the very near future. In the meantime, Jonason and Webster’s Dirty Dozen scale offers a way to spot Dark Triad individuals. Each item is rated on a 7-point scale based on how well it applies to a person. Of course, you can also rate yourself on these qualities to see how you measure up:
  1. I tend to manipulate others to get my way.
  2. I tend to lack remorse.
  3. I tend to want others to admire me.
  4. I tend to be unconcerned with the morality of my actions.
  5. I have used deceit or lied to get my way.
  6. I tend to be callous or insensitive.
  7. I have used flattery to get my way.
  8. I tend to seek prestige or status.
  9. I tend to be cynical.
  10. I tend to exploit others toward my own end.
  11. I tend to expect special favors from others.
  12. I want others to pay attention to me.
The total score can range from 12 to 84, but you can also break down the scales into the three traits as follows: Machiavellianism = 1, 5, 7, 10; Psychopathy = 2, 4, 6, 9; Narcissism = 3, 8, 11, 12.
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Of the three, narcissism was judged to be the “brightest.” The argument can even be made that narcissists possess qualities that others find desirable, such as being more attractive, charming, conscientious, and achievement-oriented. Rauthmann and Kolar suggest that perhaps narcissism should be seen as distinct from the other traits, which they called the “Malicious Two.” However, other studies suggest that over time, the initial glow of the narcissist’s bright qualities does tend to fade. People who interact with narcissists like them less and less the more time they spend with them.

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post #5 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-14-2020, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah my point with the humour thing wasn't that that on it's own was connected, but more a sort of coping mechanism that develops as a response to being overly aware of that aspect of society, and being associated with it. Because if you seem weird then people will often start treating you as though you might be dangerous etc from younger ages. In a sense though this also socialises you into that way of thinking to some degree (though it's probably hard to escape entirely in present society.) It reminds me of an episode of Daria I re-watched recently called The Misery Chick.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59fepq

Also I think there's a degree of sadism associated with a preference for 'dark stuff.' I'm sure I remember hearing that horror fiction writers have higher psychopathic traits as well. On the other hand the appeal is often transformative and related to identifying with outcasts and underdogs. So it's kind of a mixture.
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post #6 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-14-2020, 12:54 PM
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@Musicfan

Yeah my point with the humour thing wasn't that that on it's own was connected but more a sort of coping mechanism that develops as a response to being overly aware of that aspect of society, and being associated with it. Because if you seem weird then people will often start treating you as though you might be dangerous etc from younger ages. In a sense though this also socialises you into that way of thinking to some degree (though it's probably hard to escape entirely in present society.)

Also I think there's a degree of sadism associated with a preference for dark stuff, I'm sure I remember hearing that horror fiction writers have higher psychopathic traits as well.

Okay I got you. Yeah I can see that judging people as a danger would lead those people to adopt a dark personality. Probably for coping. I guess it's possible to emulate dark triad traits for popularity these days. It's a thing in places like LA to be more narcissist, and it goes with the territory. I've always thought that was a survival mechanism. Sadism makes sense, though I'm not sure where that goes with a dark triad personality. I've wondered if sadism had ties to dark humor.

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post #7 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-14-2020, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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Okay I got you. Yeah I can see that judging people as a danger would lead those people to adopt a dark personality. Probably for coping. I guess it's possible to emulate dark triad traits for popularity these days. It's a thing in places like LA to be more narcissist, and it goes with the territory. I've always thought that was a survival mechanism. Sadism makes sense, though I'm not sure where that goes with a dark triad personality. I've wondered if sadism had ties to dark humor.
It's mostly an identity based response I think. Either you become defensive over the traits people criticise you for or you reject them entirely to fit in (or try to.) I've noticed something similar with gender non conforming people who were that way in childhood. Obviously this doesn't always apply but many either grow up to be incredibly embarrassed of how feminine/masculine they were as children and try to become the complete opposite (this is more common for men because they face more social stigma,) or they often become like Jeffree Star where everything he owns is pink (which is also more common for men.)

But if you can find a way to circumvent the negative traits/preferences that gives you some social success, many people will try that and in this case with the kind of introverted/dark/anxious/schizoid/introspective personality types that usually means developing a sarcastic/dark sense of humour because if softens your peculiarities at least with certain people.

Having said that in my own case I was kind of drawn to weird dark stuff from a young age anyway. So I think that tendency is usually there innately but people deal with it differently, but initially it was just a few things (starting from about age 7 or so,) and then it increased with age. I definitely think I'm a bit sadistic, among many other negative traits I have but I tend to deal with this vicariously. So I could see how these things overlap. I tend to identify with fictional characters that are intended to be negative/villains etc as well, for complicated reasons but still.

Sadism wasn't included in the dark triad though I wanted the thread to be a bit broader anyway but it's hard to point at a single psychological construct that's inclusive enough. The Wikipedia page for dark triad does mention that sometimes sadism is proposed to be included as well.

I can see narcissism is the most popular of the traits in terms of becoming successful and it's also the trait that's increasing the most I believe at least in America although studies on this kind of thing tend to be limited to certain segments of the population and aren't necessarily representative (the weird issue in psychology.) It would seem to make sense though really. Other associated traits like emotional dysregulation, aggression and problems with impulsivity tend to create more problems for people so are less likely to be found among high functioning people.

I guess the summary is that we're promoting anti-social traits over pro-social traits for the most part.
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post #8 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-14-2020, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
It's mostly an identity based response I think. Either you become defensive over the traits people criticise you for or you reject them entirely to fit in (or try to.) I've noticed something similar with gender non conforming people who were that way in childhood. Obviously this doesn't always apply but many either grow up to be incredibly embarrassed of how feminine/masculine they were as children and try to become the complete opposite (this is more common for men because they face more social stigma,) or they often become like Jeffree Star where everything he owns is pink (which is also more common for men.)

But if you can find a way to circumvent the negative traits/preferences that gives you some social success, many people will try that and in this case with the kind of introverted/dark/anxious/schizoid/introspective personality types that usually means developing a sarcastic/dark sense of humour because if softens your peculiarities at least with certain people.

Having said that in my own case I was kind of drawn to weird dark stuff from a young age anyway. So I think that tendency is usually there innately but people deal with it differently, but initially it was just a few things (starting from about age 7 or so,) and then it increased with age. I definitely think I'm a bit sadistic, among many other negative traits I have but I tend to deal with this vicariously. So I could see how these things overlap. I tend to identify with fictional characters that are intended to be negative/villains etc as well, for complicated reasons but still.

Sadism wasn't included in the dark triad though I wanted the thread to be a bit broader anyway but it's hard to point at a single psychological construct that's inclusive enough. The Wikipedia page for dark triad does mention that sometimes sadism is proposed to be included as well.

I can see narcissism is the most popular of the traits in terms of becoming successful and it's also the trait that's increasing the most I believe at least in America although studies on this kind of thing tend to be limited to certain segments of the population and aren't necessarily representative (the weird issue in psychology.) It would seem to make sense though really. Other associated traits like emotional dysregulation, aggression and problems with impulsivity tend to create more problems for people so are less likely to be found among high functioning people.

I guess the summary is that we're promoting anti-social traits over pro-social traits for the most part.

That probably explains a bit why the Patrick Bateman character got to be so popular from the movie American Psycho. People do romanticize psychopathic and narcissistic fictional characters, some times too much. Also Alex from A Clockwork Orange. I've enjoyed those movies, not as influences but for the humor and wit. Now a Harley Quinn featured movie is coming out and she is a popular sadistic character. But those characters show you what sells big in entertainment. Even the good guys have to have some darkness to them. Like James Bond.

I think a problem also is identifying with negative traits if you've been treated like a bad person. In the CBT books I've read they talk about how people will fall into the thinking that they are a bad person, based on abuse or bullying. I actually believed myself I was a narcissist after reading about it, until I talked about it with my doctor and he was pretty sure I'm not one. Those personalities can get adopted, like among teenagers. I imagine they can be worked out if a person shows the ability to change. But it is impossible for some people to change like extreme narcissists.

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post #9 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-14-2020, 06:28 PM
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I always though of dark triads as the bad people of society. Criminals, bad police officers, racists, trolls, incels. But it looks like they can also blend in with society if they're smart enough to imitate a normal person. Yeah I've come across some people that came off strongly with those three patterns of behavior. I don't think having dark humor is an indicator unless you have no empathy. Someone who gets off on drama and gets a kick on putting people down, I'd assume they might be a dark triad. It's an interesting topic.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...y-s-dark-triad
I'm curious why you included incels in there, if they had the personality traits required in the dark triad they wouldn't be incels hahaha.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #10 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-14-2020, 09:20 PM
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I'm curious why you included incels in there, if they had the personality traits required in the dark triad they wouldn't be incels hahaha.

I don't know much about the incel culture honestly, I mentioned that because of the violent incels through history not necessarily the people that are struggling with getting sex. There are some with extreme entitlement and enjoy rape jokes for example. It's not something I'm particularly interested in researching. But I didn't mean to lump all incels however they may identify into dark triad traits, just that the whole incel thing gives off a very scary vibe sometimes.

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post #11 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 09:30 AM
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I don't know much about the incel culture honestly, I mentioned that because of the violent incels through history not necessarily the people that are struggling with getting sex. There are some with extreme entitlement and enjoy rape jokes for example. It's not something I'm particularly interested in researching. But I didn't mean to lump all incels however they may identify into dark triad traits, just that the whole incel thing gives off a very scary vibe sometimes.
Most of the media buzz around incel shooters is out of fashion rather than factual information. It's merely the latest scapegoat and they don't really have any confirmation that those people would call themselves incel or had any thing to do with incel groups. There's been very few verifiable provable incel attacks over the years. That said I think the community can be toxic but I find it almost humorous that one of the most vilified segments of society are people that can't get laid.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #12 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 11:30 AM
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Most of the media buzz around incel shooters is out of fashion rather than factual information. It's merely the latest scapegoat and they don't really have any confirmation that those people would call themselves incel or had any thing to do with incel groups. There's been very few verifiable provable incel attacks over the years. That said I think the community can be toxic but I find it almost humorous that one of the most vilified segments of society are people that can't get laid.
Quite a few of them were self-described incels;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#...s_and_violence

I don't see anything weird in the vilifying of the incels. Incels are all over the internet, but they make very few attacks, sure, but the attacks are really serious when they happen. It's somewhat comparable to terrorism, millions of terrorist sympathizers in the west, but very few, although deadly, attacks. Much is done to prevent terrorism, but how about the men who can't get laid and post murder fantasies online? Who's tapping their phones and infiltrating into their groups? You said the community "can be" toxic, but it's nothing else than that and also an understatement. Not one incel will disapprove the actions of the Elliot Rodger's or the other "heroes". There isn't such thing as moderate incel. If there is, they don't call themselves incels.

If incels (outside the internet) would mostly cause just property damage and maybe practice self-harming, no one would be talking about "incel problem", even if there were twice as much "incel attacks" like that.

When incels post stuff online, it gets taken literally and their forums get banned. People say it's stupid, useless, fear-mongering and "only the few crazy ones commit massacres and they would have done it anyway", but in the Minassian's interview, you can hear his radicalization process and the use of the exact terms, talking points and logic, that EVERY incel uses.



It's a mystery why there aren't more attacks, because everything the community teaches you, is that there is no hope and you must rise. Even the slightest hint of positivism or support someone post in the community is immediately shot down and labeled as a "cope". It's the opposite of support group. Social anxiety support IS about support and coping, incel forums are about giving you the death sentence.

Incels shouldn't be blamed tho... I don't know who should, the person who invented internet?

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post #13 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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Incels definitely have a lot of negative psychological traits including often some dark triad stuff, however they are disproportionately focused on because they're low status and easier to stumble on online by average people. Punching down is considered noble and punching up is considered weak because 'you're envious.'


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post #14 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 12:04 PM
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Quite a few of them were self-described incels;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#...s_and_violence

I don't see anything weird in the vilifying of the incels. Incels are all over the internet, but they make very few attacks, sure, but the attacks are really serious when they happen. It's somewhat comparable to terrorism, millions of terrorist sympathizers in the west, but very few, although deadly, attacks. Much is done to prevent terrorism, but how about the men who can't get laid and post murder fantasies online? Who's tapping their phones and infiltrating into their groups? You said the community "can be" toxic, but it's nothing else than that and also an understatement. Not one incel will disapprove the actions of the Elliot Rodger's or the other "heroes". There isn't such thing as moderate incel. If there is, they don't call themselves incels.
I've met people that call themselves incels and have zero expression of violence rather merely despondent hopelessness towards their plight. My statement was that there are a few cases of incel attacks and they have been conflated then applied towards violent behaviors that are completely unrelated or even happened before the term incel was coined by a woman on reddit whom applied it towards herself. My statement still stands and you haven't discredited it.

The video of the man with low functioning autism - he was pushed towards self describing as an incel by the interrogator and the footage was released publicly with a purpose.

Quote:
If incels (outside the internet) would mostly cause just property damage and maybe practice self-harming, no one would be talking about "incel problem", even if there were twice as much "incel attacks" like that.

When incels post stuff online, it gets taken literally and their forums get banned. People say it's stupid, useless, fear-mongering and "only the few crazy ones commit massacres and they would have done it anyway", but in the Minassian's interview, you can hear his radicalization process and the use of the exact terms, talking points and logic, that EVERY incel uses.
They managed to radicalize a man with low functioning autism that was incapable of making moral judgements due to his social ineptitude. I agree that there are bad actors pushing others towards violence but the same can be said about nearly any thing the internet has access to.



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It's a mystery why there aren't more attacks, because everything the community teaches you, is that there is no hope and you must rise. Even the slightest hint of positivism or support someone post in the community is immediately shot down and labeled as a "cope". It's the opposite of support group. Social anxiety support IS about support and coping, incel forums are about giving you the death sentence.

Incels shouldn't be blamed tho... I don't know who should, the person who invented internet?
It's not a mystery why there aren't more attacks. Sad people that would rather blame the world rather than change themselves is not new.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #15 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 12:45 PM
Is that what day it is?
 
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Incels definitely have a lot of negative psychological traits including often some dark triad stuff, however they are disproportionately focused on because they're low status and easier to stumble on online by average people. Punching down is considered noble and punching up is considered weak because 'you're envious.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si7dl6BU78E

They're Randian's shield.
"The army is a mother. It takes in boys from broken homes with no foreseeable future and turns them into killers" - can't remember where I read this.

If you want real insight towards incels and this I just want to die in a war meme I'd recommend reading up on Hegel and Nietzsche. Humanity comes in cycles, nothing has changed these problems have been pondered for millenniums. Modern technology is merely making the cycle move faster.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #16 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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"The army is a mother. It takes in boys from broken homes with no foreseeable future and turns them into killers" - can't remember where I read this.

If you want real insight towards incels and this I just want to die in a war meme I'd recommend reading up on Hegel and Nietzsche. Humanity comes in cycles, nothing has changed these problems have been pondered for millenniums. Modern technology is merely making the cycle move faster.
Yeah it gives you a sense of community. In the UK the armed forces purposefully prey on people who have various issues (an expanding list of groups.) Apparently their last campaign was very successful in terms of numbers signing up. They focused on video gamers and people who spend a lot of time on their phone, now they're doing something similar again:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9266871.html

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The promotion declared it was aiming at “Me Me Me Millennials”, “Class Clowns”, “Binge Gamers”, “Phone Zombies”, and “Selfie Addicts” as well as “Snow Flakes”, stressing that despite the labelling they possess the self-belief, spirit, drive, focus, compassion and confidence to cope with the most difficult situations.
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The campaign, said the MoD, resulted in 90,000 people applying to join the army, pushing it 90 per cent towards meeting its annual recruitment target. This was a 46 per cent increase on the previous year, and the highest number of recruits for 10 years starting basic training in September 2019 as a result. Recruitment for the army reserve was up 30 per cent.

One of the images in the fresh promotion is a collage of muscular body parts with the caption: “Confidence can be built for a summertime or it can last a lifetime.” Another, with emojis, says: “Confidence can last as long as a like or it can last a lifetime.”
Creepy army ads for the social media era.

It's a way to re-direct violence that occurs from certain frustrations. Probably stops the peasants revolting in the more obvious ways or the less obvious ways (opening line from SCUM manifesto):

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"Life" in this "society" being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of "society" being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation and eliminate the male sex.
I don't see society as being too much different to feudalism.
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post #17 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-15-2020, 02:27 PM
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^^ Well if you think about it those people they're recruiting are probably decendants of people who helped win ww1 & ww2, they might have been the same had they phones or video games for distraction.






And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death
Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow,
A poor player that strut's and fret's his hour upon the stage and is heard no more,
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
- Macbeth
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post #18 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 02:07 AM
pls don't eat bats, thnx
 
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I think I remember the us army even making a mod or free fps a long while back in their efforts to recruit current generation of kids?

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That probably explains a bit why the Patrick Bateman character got to be so popular from the movie American Psycho. People do romanticize psychopathic and narcissistic fictional characters, some times too much. Also Alex from A Clockwork Orange. I've enjoyed those movies, not as influences but for the humor and wit. Now a Harley Quinn featured movie is coming out and she is a popular sadistic character. But those characters show you what sells big in entertainment. Even the good guys have to have some darkness to them. Like James Bond.
I like those characters in different ways. with bateman it's more of appreciation of parody. it's like a comedian getting into character to mock and ridicule someone or something. in the case of bateman it's a caricature of a sociopathic businessman/ceo of the 80s. so it's probably less about romanticism more about mockery of those rich bosses of businesses who exploited people, engaged in hedonism and generally gave zero f's about anyone other than themselves.
clockwork orange is kind of different. I think in some ways the protagonist was more of a victim of the system or at least part victim part anti social deviant/criminal. I think it attempts to explain cause and effect. the film is definitely shining a light on rehabilitation and the treatment of people with problems.

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post #19 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-21-2020, 12:43 PM
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I think I remember the us army even making a mod or free fps a long while back in their efforts to recruit current generation of kids?



I like those characters in different ways. with bateman it's more of appreciation of parody. it's like a comedian getting into character to mock and ridicule someone or something. in the case of bateman it's a caricature of a sociopathic businessman/ceo of the 80s. so it's probably less about romanticism more about mockery of those rich bosses of businesses who exploited people, engaged in hedonism and generally gave zero f's about anyone other than themselves.
clockwork orange is kind of different. I think in some ways the protagonist was more of a victim of the system or at least part victim part anti social deviant/criminal. I think it attempts to explain cause and effect. the film is definitely shining a light on rehabilitation and the treatment of people with problems.

That's a good character analysis. The author of American Psycho did use a lot of sociopathic yuppy characters in his books,and the Bateman character does come off as an extreme parody. I always thought though that the ending of a Clockwork Orange the movie made it as though he could never be fixed of his anti social behavior. The book's ending was different of course with him being rehabilitated.

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post #20 of 51 (permalink) Old 01-22-2020, 12:09 PM
pls don't eat bats, thnx
 
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That's a good character analysis. The author of American Psycho did use a lot of sociopathic yuppy characters in his books,and the Bateman character does come off as an extreme parody. I always thought though that the ending of a Clockwork Orange the movie made it as though he could never be fixed of his anti social behavior. The book's ending was different of course with him being rehabilitated.
interesting, the book of cwo is a novel I wouldn't mind checking out at some point as I really like the way language was developed in that story. but i'd also like to see how it ended in the book.
 
yea with the end of the film and him killing himself, I figured it could be suggesting rehabilitation doesn't work, the scenes with the eye drops are pretty famous and it always seemed like a form of torture.
I know kubrick altered the story in the shining and although he's never explained, it seemed like he was trying to put his own take on things so I wonder if he was doing the same with a clockwork orange?

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