There is no such thing as race in biological sense - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 11:00 AM Thread Starter
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There is no such thing as race in biological sense




I should have put, " no such thing as human race from a biological sense" This video made me feel smarter. Even though being smart is silly, slightly less than being dumb I suppose..
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 11:54 AM
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 04:18 PM
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 04:53 PM
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 04:54 PM
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 05:31 PM
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This is a common misconception. The logic goes as follows: "Since two people within the same race can be genetically much more different, than two people from different races, race doesn't exist". This logic obviously is erroneous. It is like saying, "Since some women are physically stronger than some men, physical power doesn't depend on gender". The existence of outliers does not make the general rule obsolete.

Races do exist, and there are measurable statistical differences between different races. Within one race, there can be subgroups that are extremely different from each other - but the overall trends as pertinent to the population as a whole are still there.

It is another matter that race doesn't have any relevance in social situations. I personally don't care at all what race the individual is; it is less important to me than the person's hair color. I know that my general preference is Asian people as far as romantic attraction goes, but, again, this is just a statistical fact; one doesn't have to be Asian for me to be strongly attracted to them.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 06:31 PM
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yeah i'm so angry people call me white without even researching my ancestry and mapping my DNA. i come from a family of white colored non-white people. my immediate family is all colored white, but that doesn't mean anything and color isn't a thing either. or color is a social construct and therefore not a real thing. so if you describe anything by color you are being a bigot for some reason. we're all colorless. our eyes have rods and cones, but i call the cones lie-receptors. and also the rods too sometimes. its all lies!


anyway, i'm sure an amazing amount of time and money has already been poured into making people acknowledge that race is an irrelevant criteria in most circumstances. for some reason its been one of the first world's main projects for some time. only the highly stupid or the highly resistant haven't been swayed. idk why its so important. there are other issues. such as poverty, hunger, etc. but no! lets address this issue first, and over and over again so we don't have to face other issues that are actually difficult. we don't want to learn new issues, we learnt this one good so we will stick with it until every racist that ever existed knows all about us i mean it.

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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 10:41 PM
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Races do exist, and there are measurable statistical differences between different races. Within one race, there can be subgroups that are extremely different from each other - but the overall trends as pertinent to the population as a whole are still there.
I don't see it as simple,

1 What is the number of different races out there and how the race is measured?
2 Where is the line between mixed and non-mixed race? (percentage?)
3 At what point new races stopped to develop and how long we are going to keep lumping new born people into the existing groups?
(sounds almost like some sort of social construct...)

White (not a scientific term) Americans are the descendants and a mixture of different European ethnicities(?), so are the white Americans a mixed race/ethnicity or should they be considered as their own ethnicity? When the term "white" started to be used, it excluded some light skinned people like the Irish and still today, Russians and ethnic Jews. Harrison Fords parents are Jewish/Irish descent, so is it wrong to call him "white" then? What if he "identifies" as white himself?

You like Asians, as in Pakistanis etc.? Brits calls them Asians, Wikipedia calls them Caucasians and Americans calls them Arabs, but what does the race science say?

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 04:35 AM
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This is a common misconception. The logic goes as follows: "Since two people within the same race can be genetically much more different, than two people from different races, race doesn't exist". This logic obviously is erroneous. It is like saying, "Since some women are physically stronger than some men, physical power doesn't depend on gender". The existence of outliers does not make the general rule obsolete.

Races do exist, and there are measurable statistical differences between different races. Within one race, there can be subgroups that are extremely different from each other - but the overall trends as pertinent to the population as a whole are still there.
I believe your characterisation of the argument is incorrect. The argument is really as such: "There is greater genetic variation within populations than there are between different populations, therefore biological race doesn't exist."

Note that we aren't deliberately singling out individuals that are more different to prove a point, as in your characterisation. Instead we are looking at the broader statistical variation that occurs within and between populations.

Several studies have found that, of the total genetic variation that occurs between humans, around 85% is found within populations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...etic_variation

I'm not sure, however, whether this alone means it's safe to conclude that biological race does not exist, but based on numerous other arguments including the ones made in the OP's video, the idea of biological race is at least very dubious.

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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 09:20 AM
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People who are darker complexioned have been out in the sun more than paler people.


In my own experience, I noticed that my hair also tends to get dry the more I get in the sun. Hair texture is also different.


But yeah, we are all the same.

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by andy1984 View Post
yeah i'm so angry people call me white without even researching my ancestry and mapping my DNA. i come from a family of white colored non-white people. my immediate family is all colored white, but that doesn't mean anything and color isn't a thing either. or color is a social construct and therefore not a real thing. so if you describe anything by color you are being a bigot for some reason. we're all colorless. our eyes have rods and cones, but i call the cones lie-receptors. and also the rods too sometimes. its all lies!


anyway, i'm sure an amazing amount of time and money has already been poured into making people acknowledge that race is an irrelevant criteria in most circumstances. for some reason its been one of the first world's main projects for some time. only the highly stupid or the highly resistant haven't been swayed. idk why its so important. there are other issues. such as poverty, hunger, etc. but no! lets address this issue first, and over and over again so we don't have to face other issues that are actually difficult. we don't want to learn new issues, we learnt this one good so we will stick with it until every racist that ever existed knows all about us i mean it.
I think the people who focus heavily on race do it for the following reasons (not necessarily all simultaneously):

1. Because it's their favourite form of tribalism

2. Because they are edgy and don't like to be told a topic is off the table for discussion (fair enough tbh, I get that.)

3. Because they believe that genetics are more important than environment generally (or the only important thing,) and are pessimistic about there being anything that can be done to effect positive change and that inequality etc is inevitable.

4. They actually enjoy inequality:


(and so have no interest in trying to change anything anyway.)


It's weird that she argues for income inequality in a debate on positive discrimination. Status and wealth as motivators... She'd be a trash Oligarch under Plato's 5 regimes lmao.

(also that debate is infamously awful, basically nobody says anything on either side and about 30% of the discussion is her talking about people's clothing choices and tone policing...)

But yeah this thread is about race not psychopaths so..

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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I have Irish, French,and Spanish ancestry.. My friend was Spanish but had like 3 % African ancestry. Look at Logic his dad is dark but he;s white.
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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:02 PM
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I don't see it as simple,

1 What is the number of different races out there and how the race is measured?
2 Where is the line between mixed and non-mixed race? (percentage?)
3 At what point new races stopped to develop and how long we are going to keep lumping new born people into the existing groups?
(sounds almost like some sort of social construct...)

White (not a scientific term) Americans are the descendants and a mixture of different European ethnicities(?), so are the white Americans a mixed race/ethnicity or should they be considered as their own ethnicity? When the term "white" started to be used, it excluded some light skinned people like the Irish and still today, Russians and ethnic Jews. Harrison Fords parents are Jewish/Irish descent, so is it wrong to call him "white" then? What if he "identifies" as white himself?

You like Asians, as in Pakistanis etc.? Brits calls them Asians, Wikipedia calls them Caucasians and Americans calls them Arabs, but what does the race science say?
I see race as a continuum, with various groups denoting some prevalent traits, but without open gaps between them. So you can't say that someone is, say, 100% Asian. But someone who is, say, 90% Asian and 10% Caucasian would overall be likely called Asian.

When I say that I like Asians, I really mean Eastern Asia: people originating in countries such as China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand... The exact classification really varies between different scientific and cultural groups.

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Originally Posted by Squirrelevant View Post
I believe your characterisation of the argument is incorrect. The argument is really as such: "There is greater genetic variation within populations than there are between different populations, therefore biological race doesn't exist."

Note that we aren't deliberately singling out individuals that are more different to prove a point, as in your characterisation. Instead we are looking at the broader statistical variation that occurs within and between populations.

Several studies have found that, of the total genetic variation that occurs between humans, around 85% is found within populations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_...etic_variation

I'm not sure, however, whether this alone means it's safe to conclude that biological race does not exist, but based on numerous other arguments including the ones made in the OP's video, the idea of biological race is at least very dubious.
Consider two Gaussian distributions, one centered at 1 and having the STD of 10, and another centered at 1.1 and having the STD of 10.1. There will be probably around 100 times as much variance within a large sample from one distribution, than there will be between the two samples, but the samples still comes from different distributions.

This is how I see race as well. Within one races the variance can be very large, while two groups from two races put next to each other will differ much less - but that difference will still be traceable.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:45 PM
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I have Irish, French,and Spanish ancestry.. My friend was Spanish but had like 3 % African ancestry. Look at Logic his dad is dark but he;s white.
Sargon of Akkad the YouTuber is 1/4 black but basically looks entirely white:



IAMX is also 1/4 black (he's mentioned it in a few interviews, wouldn't have known otherwise) and he dyes his hair black it's naturally reddish brown:







(actually you can probably kind of tell in some photos despite the palest skin shade, Sargon is the ultimate example of 'yeah you don't look mixed race at all.' this was clearly just an excuse to post about IAMX for the 75th billion time though obviously.)


IAMX is actually a fairy changeling though of course, so discussions abo-

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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 10:12 PM
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I see race as a continuum, with various groups denoting some prevalent traits, but without open gaps between them. So you can't say that someone is, say, 100% Asian. But someone who is, say, 90% Asian and 10% Caucasian would overall be likely called Asian.
If someone can be 90% Asian, then at least hypothetically you could imagine someone who is 100% Asian. But if race itself is a continuum, then how could such a thing even hypothetically be possible? Where on the continuum would this 100% Asian person exist?

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Originally Posted by Shadowweaver View Post
Consider two Gaussian distributions, one centered at 1 and having the STD of 10, and another centered at 1.1 and having the STD of 10.1. There will be probably around 100 times as much variance within a large sample from one distribution, than there will be between the two samples, but the samples still comes from different distributions.

This is how I see race as well. Within one races the variance can be very large, while two groups from two races put next to each other will differ much less - but that difference will still be traceable.
You are making a decision as to what these two groups are in the first place based on our socially constructed conceptions of race, not on biology. If you were to base your categorisation purely on genetic markers, then - as stated in the video - we are choosing the number of groupings that we categorise people into. This is therefore still a social construction.

As much as I love c0nc0rdance and his videos, I think this video actually does a better job of explaining things than his science and stats heavy video. I also love how Philip Kitcher brings ethics into it at the end.


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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 03:26 AM
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I see race as a continuum, with various groups denoting some prevalent traits, but without open gaps between them. So you can't say that someone is, say, 100% Asian. But someone who is, say, 90% Asian and 10% Caucasian would overall be likely called Asian.

When I say that I like Asians, I really mean Eastern Asia: people originating in countries such as China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Thailand... The exact classification really varies between different scientific and cultural groups.



Consider two Gaussian distributions, one centered at 1 and having the STD of 10, and another centered at 1.1 and having the STD of 10.1. There will be probably around 100 times as much variance within a large sample from one distribution, than there will be between the two samples, but the samples still comes from different distributions.

This is how I see race as well. Within one races the variance can be very large, while two groups from two races put next to each other will differ much less - but that difference will still be traceable.

What races are there and what are the criteria for being included in each race?
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-17-2019, 10:47 AM
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This video, 100%. I was going to post this exact argument, but he's done it much better than I would have. I can't believe anyone who knows anything beyond high school biology could think otherwise about this subject and I simply can't take people who take race seriously seriously.

Incidentally, the exact same argument applies to gender. :: bomb detonates ::

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