Some ways to help curb immigration. - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Some ways to help curb immigration.


The main immigration problem is that our politicians don't actually care about solutions, the Republicans love having illegal immigration as a way to get voters to come out and vote for them (it's worked quite well for decades), and the Democrats love having the caged children to point to to get people riled up and ready to go out and vote for the Dems so they can end it, except Democrats won't end it, it's also a very effective way to get voters out so why would they change it?

Anyway, if they did actually care then there are plenty of effective things they could do. First of all we cut off the demand for illegal immigrants, because we don't just have an illegal immigrant problem we also have an illegal business owner problem. In America the idea of the government interfering with a business in any negative way is considered scary bad communism, so this is the part that wouldn't fly here in the US... but we actually have the the government enforce corporate............laws. Yes, the businesses would be held accountable for employing the immigrants who are effectively taking yer jerbs. So it would be announced to business owners, ICE will be conducting raids on businesses not just to deport the immigrants, but they'll be there to check records looking for proof that the workers are legal, and if they can't prove that they're all fully legal documented workers...then we're throwing your illegal a** in jail. Not just a simple slap on the wrist like a small fine, they'll be doing time. Maybe they'd be given a few months notice so they can drop the illegal workers and hire legal workers.

The important thing is that it would need to actually be enforced, if a raid led to a number of business owners actually doing time for breaking the law then that would be a message to every other business.

Once illegal immigrants are getting turned down everywhere they go then self-deportation will be a very possible option, instead of us separating families they'd have time to figure things out, family arrangements etc. If they can't get work here then what do they do? They immigrate to where they can get work, and the US would no longer be that place.

The reality is though that business owners will of course be unhappy, some of them might not even be able to operate without low wage illegal immigrants (that's where that 'invisible hand of the free market' comes in and wipes those particular businesses out) or they might not be able to find US citizens who are even willing to do all the s*** work. It would effect the local economies since it's not just those businesses that are in limbo it would have an effect on the surrounding communities, so basically politicians would be lobbied to make certain laws regarding expediting the worker visa process, so if a business can't employ US citizens it will still have those immigrants who are now there legally with work visas.

There's a way to enforce the law of the land and also not be so cruel to immigrants. The ones that do get in illegally will have a tough time finding work, and the ones who are employed will be legal and therefore being paid a legal wage thus not working for such low wages that US citizens can't compete with.

So there's an idea.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 10:56 PM
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The main immigration problem is that our politicians don't actually care about solutions, the Republicans love having illegal immigration as a way to get voters to come out and vote for them (it's worked quite well for decades), and the Democrats love having the caged children to point to to get people riled up and ready to go out and vote for the Dems so they can end it, except Democrats won't end it, it's also a very effective way to get voters out so why would they change it?
Same accusation can be levied against democrats as minorities vote with them.


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Anyway, if they did actually care then there are plenty of effective things they could do. First of all we cut off the demand for illegal immigrants, because we don't just have an illegal immigrant problem we also have an illegal business owner problem. In America the idea of the government interfering with a business in any negative way is considered scary bad communism, so this is the part that wouldn't fly here in the US... but we actually have the the government enforce corporate............laws. Yes, the businesses would be held accountable for employing the
Demand isn't the only problem. Social welfare in another nation can be extremely appealing towards people in a nation that have absolutely nothing an example would be the problems European nations with harder welfare states face with immigration.

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immigrants who are effectively taking yer jerbs. So it would be announced to business owners, ICE will be conducting raids on businesses not just to deport the immigrants, but they'll be there to check records looking for proof that the workers are legal, and if they can't prove that they're all fully legal documented workers...then we're throwing your illegal a** in jail. Not just a simple slap on the wrist like a small fine, they'll be doing time. Maybe they'd be given a few months notice so they can drop the illegal workers and hire legal workers.
They also cause the decline of wages in the general population an issue which is highly relevant towards democratic politics however they refuse to see the real solution of lowering the worker force by limiting immigration.

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The important thing is that it would need to actually be enforced, if a raid led to a number of business owners actually doing time for breaking the law then that would be a message to every other business.

Once illegal immigrants are getting turned down everywhere they go then self-deportation will be a very possible option, instead of us separating families they'd have time to figure things out, family arrangements etc. If they can't get work here then what do they do? They immigrate to where they can get work, and the US would no longer be that place.
I hope that becomes the case but undoubtedly such businesses will be bashed as fash.

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The reality is though that business owners will of course be unhappy, some of them might not even be able to operate without low wage illegal immigrants (that's where that 'invisible hand of the free market' comes in and wipes those particular businesses out) or they might not be able to find US citizens who are even willing to do all the s*** work. It would effect the local economies since it's not just those businesses that are in limbo it would have an effect on the surrounding communities, so basically politicians would be lobbied to make certain laws regarding expediting the worker visa process, so if a business can't employ US citizens it will still have those immigrants who are now there legally with work visas.
Some of them can't operate because living wage is too low for the economy to function and the living wage is low because third worlders cause a steep decline.

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There's a way to enforce the law of the land and also not be so cruel to immigrants. The ones that do get in illegally will have a tough time finding work, and the ones who are employed will be legal and therefore being paid a legal wage thus not working for such low wages that US citizens can't compete with.

So there's an idea.
Yes, there's a way to enforce the law without being cruel to immigrants. It's the status quo. Illegals aren't immigrants, they're illegals.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 07:00 AM Thread Starter
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Same accusation can be levied against democrats as minorities vote with them.
Yeah that's why I pointed out how Democrats play politics too. I'm glad we agree that politicians on both sides of the isle are the problem. Btw I'm not a Democrat so when you point out how they're s*** you're preaching to the choir.

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Demand isn't the only problem. Social welfare in another nation can be extremely appealing towards people in a nation that have absolutely nothing an example would be the problems European nations with harder welfare states face with immigration.
Of course demand isn't the only problem, I'm just pointing out one big contributor to the problem that people seem to be refusing to acknowledge. Not surprisingly the promise that "We'll build a wall and Mexicans will pay for it!" wasn't a sufficient plan.

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I hope that becomes the case but undoubtedly such businesses will be bashed as fash.
I'm pretty sure a business choosing to not hire illegal immigrants is far less fash than having Federal law enforcement raid homes and businesses to round up immigrants.

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Yes, there's a way to enforce the law without being cruel to immigrants. It's the status quo. Illegals aren't immigrants, they're illegals.
And the employers are illegally hiring the 'illegals', is the rule of law in America only for non-Americans to abide by or are business owners subject to our laws as well?
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 08:42 PM
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Yeah that's why I pointed out how Democrats play politics too. I'm glad we agree that politicians on both sides of the isle are the problem. Btw I'm not a Democrat so when you point out how they're s*** you're preaching to the choir.



Of course demand isn't the only problem, I'm just pointing out one big contributor to the problem that people seem to be refusing to acknowledge. Not surprisingly the promise that "We'll build a wall and Mexicans will pay for it!" wasn't a sufficient plan.
Tongue in cheek rhetoric clearly wasn't the only solution and Mexico has been quite cooperative towards stemming the tide of illegal immigration. It doesn't have a positive impact on their nation either having human traffickers and drug dealers operating through the American border. A border wall is potentially beneficial towards border security.



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I'm pretty sure a business choosing to not hire illegal immigrants is far less fash than having Federal law enforcement raid homes and businesses to round up immigrants.
You say that now but you damn well know what's going to happen anyone catches wind of such policies within any business.



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And the employers are illegally hiring the 'illegals', is the rule of law in America only for non-Americans to abide by or are business owners subject to our laws as well?
I'd support punishing businesses for hiring undocumented workers, but it's not going to stop the raids and there's plenty of work for them in the private sector as contracted laborers.

Democrats are attacking Trump's policies towards illegal immigration because it's politically convenient for them. This is no where near a bad time for illegal immigrants it's quite a bit tamer now than it was even five years ago. There's also the economic benefits towards the social elites within democratic states where illegals flock towards. The suppression of wages keeps workers down, the rise in population keeps the housing prices high, and those two things keeps poor people out of their neighborhoods. They just have a hard time controlling the resulting tent cities popping up all over LA and the like

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 12:26 AM
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(this post was more thought out but I lost it and had to re-write.)

Well of course don't allow businesses to set wages below a certain amount though that's not related to immigration specifically, you want to prevent a race to the bottom.

Stop taking highskilled/important workers from developing countries that need them which increases the imbalances there. Of course a lot of these countries have imbalances because their own leaders hoard wealth and there's not much to be done about that, but you can at least try not to make things worse.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...derdevelopment

I mean I have the greatest sympathy for someone who wants to leave what they perceive to be their ****hole of a town/country etc too because I've always disliked my hometown so it's difficult but you shouldn't really encourage it or make it a necessary part of an economic model.

Obviously improving these other countries so people won't immigrate/emigrate in an imbalanced way. Hopefully encourage people to spread out more, reduce population density which has negative psychological effects etc (this is a big problem in some areas especially Europe and Asia.)

I know China are doing things in some African nations right now, I'm not optimistic about that really, and it's difficult to know what's going on there and so I'm not keeping up with it. Most of what you'll read will be propaganda with a topic like this. Like is the Western narrative legit? Is this legit:

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...121552367.html

I'm not living in these countries and even those people will be being lied to.

Either way this doesn't necessarily impact Western nations (like the US,) as many immigrants are not from these countries. Here in the UK most of our immigrants are from Eastern Europe and South Asia I would say.

But in general the more incentive to stay in their home country they have, the less people will want to leave.

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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 02:43 AM
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I don't give a **** about politics because it's all rigged anyway but I don't believe that the problem with immigration is in this country. The problem with immigration begins and ends with the countries from which these immigrants are migrating from. I have some family who live in Central America and I've been there many times and the place is just a **** hole. It's literally a big pile of **** that connects North America and South America not actual land.

The gang violence is horrible, there are no jobs as a matter of fact you can barely find a job after the age of 35 because they consider you to be too old. The poverty levels are extremely high, government corruption is very common you know all the stereotypical 3rd world country bull****.




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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 04:04 AM
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Just put hard limits on immigration and increase taxes proportionately. It's a creeping destruction of infrastructure - welfare and schools can only care for so many new immigrants, so evaluate the system and find what the capacity is. In order to increase capacity, income tax will get a blanket 1-2% increase. If people really want to take in more, let them vote with their wallets (counter argument to this is more Americans don't pay income tax, so either only net tax payers can vote on immigrant levels or make it a food tax).
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 08:46 AM
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We could probably stop overthrowing Latin American governments, and destroying their economies.

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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We could probably stop overthrowing Latin American governments, and destroying their economies.
Exactly. We're giving them the stick by crossing their borders to meddle in their affairs and also the carrot since we're allowing businesses to hire undocumented immigrants.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 11:43 AM
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The main immigration problem is that our politicians don't actually care about solutions, the Republicans love having illegal immigration as a way to get voters to come out and vote for them (it's worked quite well for decades), and the Democrats love having the caged children to point to to get people riled up and ready to go out and vote for the Dems so they can end it, except Democrats won't end it, it's also a very effective way to get voters out so why would they change it?

Anyway, if they did actually care then there are plenty of effective things they could do. First of all we cut off the demand for illegal immigrants, because we don't just have an illegal immigrant problem we also have an illegal business owner problem. In America the idea of the government interfering with a business in any negative way is considered scary bad communism, so this is the part that wouldn't fly here in the US... but we actually have the the government enforce corporate............laws. Yes, the businesses would be held accountable for employing the immigrants who are effectively taking yer jerbs. So it would be announced to business owners, ICE will be conducting raids on businesses not just to deport the immigrants, but they'll be there to check records looking for proof that the workers are legal, and if they can't prove that they're all fully legal documented workers...then we're throwing your illegal a** in jail. Not just a simple slap on the wrist like a small fine, they'll be doing time. Maybe they'd be given a few months notice so they can drop the illegal workers and hire legal workers.

The important thing is that it would need to actually be enforced, if a raid led to a number of business owners actually doing time for breaking the law then that would be a message to every other business.

Once illegal immigrants are getting turned down everywhere they go then self-deportation will be a very possible option, instead of us separating families they'd have time to figure things out, family arrangements etc. If they can't get work here then what do they do? They immigrate to where they can get work, and the US would no longer be that place.

The reality is though that business owners will of course be unhappy, some of them might not even be able to operate without low wage illegal immigrants (that's where that 'invisible hand of the free market' comes in and wipes those particular businesses out) or they might not be able to find US citizens who are even willing to do all the s*** work. It would effect the local economies since it's not just those businesses that are in limbo it would have an effect on the surrounding communities, so basically politicians would be lobbied to make certain laws regarding expediting the worker visa process, so if a business can't employ US citizens it will still have those immigrants who are now there legally with work visas.

There's a way to enforce the law of the land and also not be so cruel to immigrants. The ones that do get in illegally will have a tough time finding work, and the ones who are employed will be legal and therefore being paid a legal wage thus not working for such low wages that US citizens can't compete with.

So there's an idea.
YES!


We have raids here in Ohio every so often. I see mug shots of illegal immigrants. There was a raid in northern Ohio where over 600 illegal immigrants were employed!

Heck, I have una estacion del radio para hispanohablantes here, too! It's interesting to hear them say "Hamilton" and "Fairfield" in a Hispanic accent! In fact, the sheriff of that county wrote a letter to President Obama begging for help because the problem is so bad......not much happened!

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 12:22 PM
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Stop taking highskilled/important workers from developing countries that need them which increases the imbalances there. Of course a lot of these countries have imbalances because their own leaders hoard wealth and there's not much to be done about that, but you can at least try not to make things worse.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-d...derdevelopment

.
Sorry, but it’s annoying enough to be perceived as vermin by many people, saying someone’s better off suffering for some vague, maybe possible, probably not, greater good for their country - is almost worse.


I don’t think there is a good future for a lot of third world countries, and not for any one simple reason. But you can’t fix the world as a side-effect of some other thing that Westerners decide would make their own lives better. This will never work.

I honestly don't have the energy to care about anything. I (almost) wish to see it burn sometimes.

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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 03:56 PM
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@Myosr

Yeah well that's why I said I can't really blame people for wanting to leave, and it's only one thing but I do feel like it's a bit unfair when Western countries just insist on taking people from other countries leading to skill shortages in various areas and improving their own economy/country and then wondering why lots of poor, illegal unskilled people try to come over simultaneously. Though admittedly most of the people that support the former are willing to ignore the latter because they don't have to deal with the social unrest that comes from it.

This is basically the mindset of these people:


I think the stupidest idea is that this is advertised as some kind of 'social darwinist/nature' mentality.

Look at how this group of San people live comparably:

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Hunting can take days of tracking, attacking, and following a wounded animal. The Juǀʼhoansi have rituals to prevent arrogance amongst male hunters. When a man kills an animal, he does not take it directly into the settlement, but leaves the body and returns as if he was unsuccessful. An older man will inquire about his hunt and remark upon his failure, to which the hunter must avoid credit and accept humility. The next day, a group will go "see if some small animal was nicked by an arrow." Upon finding the animal, the hunter will be reassured of the little value of the kill which is finally returned. Additionally, the kill may belong not to him, but to the person who gave him arrows (man or woman), who then follows rules on how to distribute the meat to everyone in the group.[10] Upon returning from a successful hunt, if the kill is transportable, it will be brought back to the village. The ǃKung promote the belief of community well-being, and so the village elders or "those of mature years" will allot meat to the members of the group. The ǃKung also believe in the betterment of other tribes, so if the kill is too large to move or there is a surplus of meat, word will be spread to villages that are close by to come collect meat for themselves.[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C7%83Kung_people

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 03:53 PM
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I wasn’t defending immigration. I just disagree with the way you framed stopping it is a win-win.

And I understand your logic, I just don’t see it working the way you expect it to. Psychologically, I mean.

“Improving these other countries” as you put it requires lowering the bar for empathy. It also requires you to believe that these countries are improvable, and that there is no inherent flaw in its inhabitants. And even if you want to, the global political structure is incompatible with this as a goal, I think.

On the other hand, keeping more people out or away or whatever goes along well with othering them. The more unrelatable you make them, the better.

It's a lot easier to establish those barriers than fix all the world problems. You don't need to save everyone, just the in-group. That's how I see it anyway.

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 04:32 PM
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@Persephone The Dread

I wasn’t defending immigration. I just disagree with the way you framed stopping it is a win-win.

And I understand your logic, I just don’t see it working the way you expect it to. Psychologically, I mean.

“Improving these other countries” as you put it requires lowering the bar for empathy. It also requires you to believe that these countries are improvable, and that there is no inherent flaw in its inhabitants. And even if you want to, the global political structure is incompatible with this as a goal, I think.

On the other hand, keeping more people out or away or whatever goes along well with othering them. The more unrelatable you make them, the better.

It's a lot easier to establish those barriers than fix all the world problems. You don't need to save everyone, just the in-group. That's how I see it anyway.
This sort of moral self righteousness is what has caused support for American imperialism for the last 60 years and destroyed so many of these nations. Oh no, another dictator start dropping the bombs. Empathy that is, that's how they gain public support. Oh no free these people! ect.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 05:40 PM
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This sort of moral self righteousness is what has caused support for American imperialism for the last 60 years and destroyed so many of these nations. Oh no, another dictator start dropping the bombs. Empathy that is, that's how they gain public support. Oh no free these people! ect.
which is why I said it was incompatible with how the world is politically structured.

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This sort of moral self righteousness is what has caused support for American imperialism for the last 60 years and destroyed so many of these nations. Oh no, another dictator start dropping the bombs. Empathy that is, that's how they gain public support. Oh no free these people! ect.
So the problem is the people who are subject to nothing but pro-war propaganda and not the people and organizations who are actually doing the destruction? That's such a weird take on the situation.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-22-2019, 07:42 PM
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which is why I said it was incompatible with how the world is politically structured.
Ah, I see your point.

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So the problem is the people who are subject to nothing but pro-war propaganda and not the people and organizations who are actually doing the destruction? That's such a weird take on the situation.
That wasn't the subject I was addressing. I despise prowar sentiments however on a personal level.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-25-2019, 07:07 AM
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Like is the Western narrative legit? Is this legit:

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...121552367.html
"Africans are well aware of the shortcomings of Chinese assistance and business in Africa - from an imbalance in trade to hefty debt, from poor quality goods to corrupt practices. Africans also know that many Chinese investors lack considerations of sustainability and that some business dealings are in some instances incompatible with the national interests of African countries. Furthermore, Africans recognise that Chinese businesses rarely fight corrupt practices and seek to avoid accountability."


i was going to post something clever but to be honest I don't even know what the Western narrative about Africa is.... apart from "Africa was fcvked over by European imperalists in the past and now they're lazy and greedy and destroy their own countries instead"
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-25-2019, 08:40 AM
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"Africans are well aware of the shortcomings of Chinese assistance and business in Africa - from an imbalance in trade to hefty debt, from poor quality goods to corrupt practices. Africans also know that many Chinese investors lack considerations of sustainability and that some business dealings are in some instances incompatible with the national interests of African countries. Furthermore, Africans recognise that Chinese businesses rarely fight corrupt practices and seek to avoid accountability."


i was going to post something clever but to be honest I don't even know what the Western narrative about Africa is.... apart from "Africa was fcvked over by European imperalists in the past and now they're lazy and greedy and destroy their own countries instead"
I more meant the narrative of what China are up to in various African countries.

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 08-25-2019, 08:46 AM
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Ehh. No matter which "side" you look at it from, it's a leverage issue. Just like most of the "crisis" type issues you hear about every day. They're convenient for those who need them to control things. And no matter what the issue at hand is, it is convenient for someone who absolutely will exploit it if given half a chance.

So it's a bit hard to pin down what it is (other than power and control) really about. It isn't really about immigration but it is. But it isn't only about immigration. It's about everything that's anything they need it to be about. And not only them. For their adversaries, it's about everything they need it to be about. They all win and we probably all lose no matter what.

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In case of emergency, my husk can be used as a flotation device.
WillYouStopDave is offline  
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