Poll: Majority identify as 'pro-life' - Page 4 - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #61 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 05:12 PM
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This thread isn't going to end well.

In the meantime...

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post #62 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 05:33 PM
 
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Make that three (vasectomy).
Thats why I said "viable options". Vasectomy isn't practical in a lot of circumstances. (I.E. Younger folks)

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This thread isn't going to end well.

In the meantime...

lol
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post #63 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 05:55 PM
 
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Such as?
Such as....????? There is shots, pills, and rings. Each having many options

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Originally Posted by Amelia View Post

Maybe she had a stomach bug and was sick. Maybe she's taking some kind of medication that interferes with the pill................
A stomach bug? Really? C'mon. That is absurd. ANYONE who took birth control seriously would monitor situations like this and taken appropriate actions.

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...........Though men who don't want their fun spoiled and who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions would probably want to believe that.
Amelia, 25% of all paternity cases tested for DNA found men were being spoofed into thinking the kids' were theirs when in actuality they weren't.
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post #64 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:10 PM
 
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If a guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill that does not remove him from his responsibility of using a condom. Give me a break. He is just as responsible as the woman if she gets pregnant. He has the right to say "No" if there is no birth control. And if he wants to have sex, then he has the responsibility of making sure birth control is available by bringing a condom, just as a woman has the responsibility of doing the same.
It is unrealistic to think men should be wearing condoms in LONG term relationships, especially it she's on the pill. I know know....I can hear it now,

"Well you shouldn't be with that person if you don't trust them". With divorce rates being nearly 60% "trust" isn't something you can put much faith in. Sadly.

Listen I am not attacking women, but I do hold them to a higher accountability to prevent unwanted pregnancies. There is literally NO reason for an unwanted pregnancy when its margin of error is less then 1%. If guys had Shots and pills then I would COMPLETELY agree with you, but we don't. I am in fact jealous there isn't many opportunities for men to have complete control over their fertility.

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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
It works both ways. This is classic sexism - the sexual double standard.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
Your right! It does work both ways. You never answered my question about "Male Abortion".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_ab...pport_policies

And.....

Call my post sexist if you will.....I am just stating facts and statistics. They don't lie....

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There was at least once study done by some economists that linked the increase in abortion after 1973's Roe v Wade to a drop in crime about 15 years later -- since less unwanted kids were born and thus there were less unwanted kids to be neglected & abused and turn into criminals as they grew up into teens.
Thats a really good point. I never thought of a correlation between the two. Kudos
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post #65 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:02 PM
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Thats why I said "viable options". Vasectomy isn't practical in a lot of circumstances. (I.E. Younger folks)
Yeah, I suppose it depends on the situation. I didn't really think much of the "viable" part of that when I posted. I think placing the responsibility mostly on the women is a little much though.

In regards to the abortion issue overall, I really think the whole issue is so mired in religious ideology and concepts of the soul that it's near impossible for two people with opposing view points to have a productive discussion. I always find the discussions interesting, though usually pretty unproductive..heh.
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post #66 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:06 PM
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In a practical sense, women do have more responsibility when it comes to pregnancy. This is because women have to carry the damn things around for nine months and women are the ones that have to give birth to the damn things. And I also think this responsibility is heightened by all this talk about how abortion is a woman's decision alone. Males not having much decision-making power in whether a fetus is aborted or not shifts more responsibility onto the female.

Nature's a b!tch.
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post #67 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:10 PM
 
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I always find the discussions interesting, though usually pretty unproductive..heh.
Lol...True.

I only place more weight on women because they hold MOST of the cards regarding fertility. More Cards = More Accountability. If it were truly 50/50 I would agree whole heartedly with Kelly.

One side note, Whats your take on Male Abortion? I posted a link above....

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In a practical sense, women do have more responsibility when it comes to pregnancy. This is because women have to carry the damn things around for nine months and women are the ones that have to give birth to the damn things. And I also think this responsibility is heightened by all this talk about how abortion is a woman's decision alone. Males not having much decision-making power in whether a fetus is aborted or not shifts more responsibility onto the female.

Nature's a b!tch.
Good Points....
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post #68 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:29 PM
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I think abortion should be legal and safe. I reach this conclusion by seeing the fetus as having no right to require the mother to serve as its host. I hate the parasite image the word host conjures, but I can't think of a better synonym. I think it's analogous to me knowing that I have a rare blood type and being forced to give blood, bone marrow, or a kidney to someone because I'm a rare, compatible commodity. Its my blood, my organs, and so on. It's the mother's body.

However, once the fetus is viable, this argument ceases for me. I'm also not willing to support the idea that a fetus outside the womb and struggling to breathe is not entitled to support in its struggle.
The problem with this is that it's difficult to establish a timeline for viability, and it is also difficult because fetuses can be made viable earlier on through some medical procedure than when the fetus would become naturally viable.

So, the fetus could survive, but just needs some help from some doctors to protect it from the evil baby-eating mother. kidding.

It would be like pulling the plug on a coma patient when that patient could be made conscious again. Or, something like that. I don't know the policy on coma patients. heh
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post #69 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:44 PM
 
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The problem with this is that it's difficult to establish a timeline for viability, and it is also difficult because fetuses can be made viable earlier on through some medical procedure than when the fetus would become naturally viable.
Well, theoretically, it isn't all that difficult - do a c-section and if the fetus survives, it's viable. Of course, there are significant economic and moral implications involved...

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So, the fetus could survive, but just needs some help from some doctors to protect it from the evil baby-eating mother. kidding.
This isn't an insignificant issue - if the pregnancy is the product of rape/incest/etc, then the mother might well have some issues with the product of such an act surviving. I don't think there's any easy answers in this case.

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It would be like pulling the plug on a coma patient when that patient could be made conscious again. Or, something like that. I don't know the policy on coma patients. heh
Well, the policy depends on if congress wants to get involved or not </sarcasm> However, in a some ways, it is a similar issue.
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post #70 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrock View Post
It is unrealistic to think men should be wearing condoms in LONG term relationships, especially it she's on the pill. I know know....I can hear it now,

"Well you shouldn't be with that person if you don't trust them". With divorce rates being nearly 60% "trust" isn't something you can put much faith in. Sadly.
Being in a long term committed relationship makes no difference as to who is more responsible for birth control. And you only add more validity to my original point with the "trust" argument. If a man doesn't want to have children, then the man must also bear responsibility for birth control. It goes the same if a woman doesn't want to have a child.

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Listen I am not attacking women, but I do hold them to a higher accountability to prevent unwanted pregnancies. There is literally NO reason for an unwanted pregnancy when its margin of error is less then 1%. If guys had Shots and pills then I would COMPLETELY agree with you, but we don't. I am in fact jealous there isn't many opportunities for men to have complete control over their fertility.
I don't think you really understand how the pill works. The pill's margin of error is less than 1% when used properly. That means you have to take it at the same exact time everyday, without taking any other medications at all, and they have to fall within a certain weight range. (I'm tall and the pill is made for women who simply weigh less than I do, even if I were very thin.) And these are only three of the factors in which the pill's effectiveness is reduced. There are probably more, but I'd have to look them up. It just makes sense to still use a condom even when a woman is on the pill. It's safer.

Furthermore, the pill also messes with a woman biologically and hormonally, so not all women are able to use the pill. It has some health benefits (like reducing the risk of heart attacks in menopausal women), but it also has health risks. Women who have a history of breast cancer in their family shouldn't take the pill because it can increase the risk of getting breast cancer. (And I'm not sure how it effects those with a risk for ovarian or other types of cancer. I know about breast cancer b/c it runs in my family.)

Both the pill and Depo-Provera manipulate a woman's hormones in order to work effectively. Both require a prescription and oftentimes aren't covered by a woman's health insurance plan (unlike Viagra, which is almost always covered. Go figure.) Having her tubes tied or a hysterectomy can cause even more health problems. In terms of surgical procedures, vasectomies are much safer. Many are done as out-patient surgery and don't mess with a man's hormones.

The easiest to obtain and least harmful to a person's health method of birth control is to use a condom + spermacide. Both men and women can buy condoms and keep them on hand.

And any guy who says, "Oh, well she said she was on the pill so I didn't need to use a condom" is just a guy who didn't want to use a condom.

And, it still takes two to tango.

Quote:
Your right! It does work both ways. You never answered my question about "Male Abortion".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_ab...pport_policies
If you actually asked a question about so-called "male abortion" I must have missed it. I think anyone with half a brain knows it's just a man's way of shirking responsibility after making the decision to have sex. It's in no way related to actual abortion. Actual abortion rights are based on the right of a woman to not be enslaved and not have rights over her own person. It's not about the right to use abortion as a method of birth control.

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And.....

Call my post sexist if you will.....I am just stating facts and statistics. They don't lie....
You actually haven't stated any facts or statistics - just a bunch of poorly informed opinions. And, anyway, you know the saying: "There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Have a nice day,
Kelly

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post #71 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 03:09 AM
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uhh huh....With guys only having 2 viable options, condoms and abstinence. Unfortunately they don't have the endless amounts of birth control women have. I can't hold them to same the level of accountability because of that. I see all the time couples getting pregnant, while the guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill. How is that possible with a 99.7% effectiveness?


One side note, I'm all for abortion. How many PRO CHOICE people out there actually support the "Male Abortion" concept
Nobody supports "male abortion" . Ain't that just great.
My parents have already warned me about girls that say "its ok i'm on the pill"

I know all to well ( from close experience with others ), that the father can either accept the child, risk being called another absent-father, or be blamed for the abortion.

that's a lot of choices ain't it ? (sarcasm).
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post #72 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
Being in a long term committed relationship makes no difference as to who is more responsible for birth control. And you only add more validity to my original point with the "trust" argument. If a man doesn't want to have children, then the man must also bear responsibility for birth control. It goes the same if a woman doesn't want to have a child.

I don't think you really understand how the pill works. The pill's margin of error is less than 1% when used properly. That means you have to take it at the same exact time everyday, without taking any other medications at all, and they have to fall within a certain weight range. (I'm tall and the pill is made for women who simply weigh less than I do, even if I were very thin.) And these are only three of the factors in which the pill's effectiveness is reduced. There are probably more, but I'd have to look them up. It just makes sense to still use a condom even when a woman is on the pill. It's safer.

Furthermore, the pill also messes with a woman biologically and hormonally, so not all women are able to use the pill. It has some health benefits (like reducing the risk of heart attacks in menopausal women), but it also has health risks. Women who have a history of breast cancer in their family shouldn't take the pill because it can increase the risk of getting breast cancer. (And I'm not sure how it effects those with a risk for ovarian or other types of cancer. I know about breast cancer b/c it runs in my family.)

Both the pill and Depo-Provera manipulate a woman's hormones in order to work effectively. Both require a prescription and oftentimes aren't covered by a woman's health insurance plan (unlike Viagra, which is almost always covered. Go figure.) Having her tubes tied or a hysterectomy can cause even more health problems. In terms of surgical procedures, vasectomies are much safer. Many are done as out-patient surgery and don't mess with a man's hormones.

The easiest to obtain and least harmful to a person's health method of birth control is to use a condom + spermacide. Both men and women can buy condoms and keep them on hand.

And any guy who says, "Oh, well she said she was on the pill so I didn't need to use a condom" is just a guy who didn't want to use a condom.

And, it still takes two to tango.

If you actually asked a question about so-called "male abortion" I must have missed it. I think anyone with half a brain knows it's just a man's way of shirking responsibility after making the decision to have sex. It's in no way related to actual abortion. Actual abortion rights are based on the right of a woman to not be enslaved and not have rights over her own person. It's not about the right to use abortion as a method of birth control.

You actually haven't stated any facts or statistics - just a bunch of poorly informed opinions. And, anyway, you know the saying: "There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Have a nice day,
Kelly

I'm a woman. I don't like children. I don't hate the way I look.
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post #73 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 07:23 AM
 
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@Kelly


Your post actually made me ROFLMFAO
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post #74 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-20-2009, 08:21 AM
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Lines were crossed and Infraction issued. This thread is now closed.

......
It is ironic, how often one comes across an atheist with a "holier than thou" attitude.
---Novius---
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