Poll: Majority identify as 'pro-life' - Page 3 - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #41 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 04:56 PM
 
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Personally I don't understand why this topic is even an issue in this country. Everyone is sooooo concerned about women being able to safely kill the kidlets. How many different contraceptive forms do women honestly have? 20?

I have no problem with abortion but if women actually took advantage of their contraceptive options this topic would literally be out the window.
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post #42 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 05:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UltraShy View Post
The US Constitution doesn't mention abortion at all, thus many libertarians who take their Constitution literally would deem abortion to not be a federal issue at all..
Whats the libertarians' position on who pays? I don't know the stats but I highly doubt abortions are performed without some sort of government/non-profit subsidiaries. I'm sure there are some couples/families who spring the full amount ,but surely that number must be small....

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In 2001, the average charge for a surgical abortion at 10 weeks’ gestation was $468; but since most abortions in the United States are performed at low-cost clinics, women on average paid $372 for the procedure. (31)
That seems awfully cheap for a medical procedure. I can't even leave the dentist office for that price
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post #43 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 05:38 PM
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What's wrong with a democrat president that listens to both sides ?


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President Obama has decided to withhold the release of further torture photos until American troops are out of harm's way (a sensible policy).He is also talking about resuming 'Military Tribunals' and perhaps holding SOME 'Enemy Combatants' indefinitely.And now a new poll shows that 'Pro-Lifer's' outnumber 'Pro-Choicers'.....All in all, it has been a VERY BAD week for fringe Democrats! :)
I am glad Obama js not a fringe democrat. As bad as Mr. Bush was, I would hate to see this country swing completely in the opposite direction !

Let's be fair people, its a free country with lot's of different opinions and ideas, so just because Obama is a democrat president, it doesn't mean he has to go and pass laws reflecting everything "democratic and liberal" . If Obama were to do that, he would be no better than George Bush, and that is a fact.

The Bush administration's problem was that they assumed the moral ground and ignored the advice and opinions of everyone else (including the U.N.).

Obama would be making the same mistake if he were to; let's say completely legalize abortion simply because because "I am a liberal and I couldn't give a ***** about the conservative's opinion."
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post #44 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 07:02 PM
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I think Obama is actually doing a damn good job. Couple months back, I thought he was the wrong choice and "a huge mistake", but seeing what he is actually implementing, it's quite amazing and exciting and I'm basically licking spit from the ground.

So when people start attacking his abortion views instead of how well he's doing at his job, it goes to show.

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post #45 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jrock View Post
Personally I don't understand why this topic is even an issue in this country. Everyone is sooooo concerned about women being able to safely kill the kidlets. How many different contraceptive forms do women honestly have? 20?

I have no problem with abortion but if women actually took advantage of their contraceptive options this topic would literally be out the window.
Time for some elementary education. No form of birth control is 100% effective.
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post #46 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jrock View Post
Whats the libertarians' position on who pays? I don't know the stats but I highly doubt abortions are performed without some sort of government/non-profit subsidiaries. I'm sure there are some couples/families who spring the full amount ,but surely that number must be small....
Given the very highly controversial nature of abortion, I seriously doubt that many (if any) abortions are performed using taxpayer money. Keep in mind that we live in a nation where using a microscopic fertilized egg that's sitting in a fertility clinic freezer and that would otherwise be disposed of as medical waste when the owner of it no longer wants it causes a great moral uproar when used for stem cell research. Imagine the extraordinary uproar when it's not frozen like a TV dinner and you can actually see it without a microscope.

Libertarians would generally be opposed to paying for abortion on the grounds that providing medical care is not a legitimate government function in their view. Those who believe in the minimal state would think providing a military for national defense (not playing world cop) and providing a judicial system is about all the government should do.

I'm more pragmatic, and realize that it's far less costly to abort an unwanted fetus than to produce unwanted children. There was at least once study done by some economists that linked the increase in abortion after 1973's Roe v Wade to a drop in crime about 15 years later -- since less unwanted kids were born and thus there were less unwanted kids to be neglected & abused and turn into criminals as they grew up into teens.

As for private charity, I recall hearing about a woman who ran one that provided poor women with FREE abortions in addition to a modest sum ($200 I think) to get an abortion. She got death threats on a daily basis.

I don't know what an abortion goes for nowadays. It's not like I've had to look around pricing them. The price quoted by Jrock would be about what I would have guessed. Perhaps someone should contact their local Planned Parenthood and then we can find out the current price for 2009.
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post #47 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 09:29 PM
 
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Time for some elementary education. No form of birth control is 100% effective.
Lol why did I know this was coming up. Birth control is effective at a 99.7% rate. With nearly 1.37 million abortions in the US each year the math doesn't add up. Sure it's not 100% effective, however approximately .3% margin of error doesn't even equivocate all the unwanted pregnancies.....
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post #48 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 09:34 PM
 
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The price quoted by Jrock would be about what I would have guessed.
Doesn't that sound awful cheap considering this is a medical procedure. How is that possible????? I can't even get a friggin root canal for less then $1000 bucks.
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post #49 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-18-2009, 10:00 PM
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A quick Google search revealed:

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Question:
My girlfriend and I were wondering what your going rate for abortion costs, and if it is too expensive is there a way for us to be billed at an easy rate until the full amount is fully paid. One more question. Is there full confidentiality because we don't want our parents involved. Thanks for your time.

Response:
The price for abortion depends on stage of pregnancy, where you live, whether or not insurance covers it, if your insurance covers all or part, if your state has state Medicaid for low-income people, etc. First trimester abortions cost about $300 - $600. Second trimester, $500 - $5000
I also checked Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin -- they take credit cards as payment.
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post #50 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 05:46 AM
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I have no problem with abortion but if women actually took advantage of their contraceptive options this topic would literally be out the window.
It takes two to tango.

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post #51 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:27 AM
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we're going a little off topic I think...

Let's not start a war here.
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post #52 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 06:40 AM
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Jrock needs to get back to his cave and have a lie-down. Perhaps it will be the 21st century when he wakes up.

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Originally Posted by UltraShy View Post
Keep in mind that we live in a nation where using a microscopic fertilized egg that's sitting in a fertility clinic freezer and that would otherwise be disposed of as medical waste when the owner of it no longer wants it causes a great moral uproar when used for stem cell research. Imagine the extraordinary uproar when it's not frozen like a TV dinner and you can actually see it without a microscope.
You mean like one of Günter von Hagens' plasticised corpses? He's already done a foetus, which apparently went on display in its mother's womb at an exhibition in Chicago in 2005. But presumably anti-choice advocates wouldn't have a problem with this since, from what I understand, they have no qualms about parading in front of abortion clinics with gory photographs of aborted foetuses. Anyway, in this case, the mother died too, so that should be OK for them.
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post #53 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:04 AM
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I think abortion should be legal and safe. I reach this conclusion by seeing the fetus as having no right to require the mother to serve as its host. I hate the parasite image the word host conjures, but I can't think of a better synonym. I think it's analogous to me knowing that I have a rare blood type and being forced to give blood, bone marrow, or a kidney to someone because I'm a rare, compatible commodity. Its my blood, my organs, and so on. It's the mother's body.

However, once the fetus is viable, this argument ceases for me. I'm also not willing to support the idea that a fetus outside the womb and struggling to breathe is not entitled to support in its struggle.
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post #54 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 07:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
It takes two to tango.

Have a nice day,
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uhh huh....With guys only having 2 viable options, condoms and abstinence. Unfortunately they don't have the endless amounts of birth control women have. I can't hold them to same the level of accountability because of that. I see all the time couples getting pregnant, while the guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill. How is that possible with a 99.7% effectiveness?


One side note, I'm all for abortion. How many PRO CHOICE people out there actually support the "Male Abortion" concept
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post #55 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:27 AM
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the endless amounts of birth control women have
Such as?

Quote:
I see all the time couples getting pregnant, while the guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill. How is that possible with a 99.7% effectiveness?


Maybe she had a stomach bug and was sick. Maybe she's taking some kind of medication that interferes with the pill. For example, antibiotics. She could even be on antibiotics because he's given her an infection. Maybe she didn't follow this advice:
  • Take the pill at the same time each day.
  • Avoid smoking.
  • Use another form of birth control if you miss several doses during the pill cycle.
  • Store them at room temperature and away from heat or excess moisture.
http://health.msn.com/health-topics/...ntid=100138980
So it's not necessarily true that women who get pregnant while on the pill do so deliberately. Though men who don't want their fun spoiled and who don't want to take responsibility for their own actions would probably want to believe that.
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post #56 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrock View Post
uhh huh....With guys only having 2 viable options, condoms and abstinence. Unfortunately they don't have the endless amounts of birth control women have. I can't hold them to same the level of accountability because of that. I see all the time couples getting pregnant, while the guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill. How is that possible with a 99.7% effectiveness?


One side note, I'm all for abortion. How many PRO CHOICE people out there actually support the "Male Abortion" concept
If a guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill that does not remove him from his responsibility of using a condom. Give me a break.

He is just as responsible as the woman if she gets pregnant. He has the right to say "No" if there is no birth control. And if he wants to have sex, then he has the responsibility of making sure birth control is available by bringing a condom, just as a woman has the responsibility of doing the same.

It works both ways. This is classic sexism - the sexual double standard.

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post #57 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
If a guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill that does not remove him from his responsibility of using a condom. Give me a break.

He is just as responsible as the woman if she gets pregnant. He has the right to say "No" if there is no birth control. And if he wants to have sex, then he has the responsibility of making sure birth control is available by bringing a condom, just as a woman has the responsibility of doing the same.

It works both ways. This is classic sexism - the sexual double standard.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
This is exactly right.
How can somebody not figure that out?

And that tricking business - you know I've seen soap operas - where the girl says she's on it, but she's not, or the guy says he's sterile or had a vasectome, and he didn't - is not acceptable either. Just something to shock people with here

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post #58 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 03:57 PM
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uhh huh....With guys only having 2 viable options, condoms and abstinence.
Make that three (vasectomy).
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post #59 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 04:28 PM
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In the UK, a patient probably won't have to pay for an abortion if she's less than 12 weeks pregnant. We don't technically have abortion on demand here - if woman wants an abortion she has to convince two doctors that carrying on with the pregnancy would be a health risk. In practice, though, I believe it's quite easy to get the required signatures.

I'm a woman. I don't like children. I don't hate the way I look.
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post #60 of 74 (permalink) Old 05-19-2009, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
If a guy thinks his girlfriend is on the pill that does not remove him from his responsibility of using a condom. Give me a break.

He is just as responsible as the woman if she gets pregnant. He has the right to say "No" if there is no birth control. And if he wants to have sex, then he has the responsibility of making sure birth control is available by bringing a condom, just as a woman has the responsibility of doing the same.

It works both ways. This is classic sexism - the sexual double standard.
I'm not sure I agree. Women get to have choice when it comes to their bodies, but if they make poor choices, the man has to bear the consequences too.

I don't know the statistics, but I'm pretty sure a condom is significantly less effective than the multitude of birth control options available to women. The woman could also refuse sex if the man refuses wear a condom. So ultimately the buck stops at the woman.
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