Minorities playing White figures. Diversity or Tokenism ? Or left wing hypocrisy - Page 6 - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #101 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
You lost me on some points here. I mean..yea...I know we are kinda on opposite spectrums of ideologies here but...

1) Isn't the whole trans movement about allowing/accepting people to transition as they please ? So I find it strange that you would like my ideology as one that forces people to medically transition and take cross-sexed hormones....even from as young as puberty...that sort of thinking comes from the very left.
It's a byproduct of sex segregation. If you segregate by sex then there will be trends in the culture within those groups/environments this leads people to form the idea that certain things are essentialised by sex. They will then attempt to edit the things that they feel are limiting them from doing what they want to do. That is particularly true of younger dysphoric people (pre-puberty,) though I think this will gradually change so long as you don't encourage that mentality. Eg:

https://@www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCEP5tfRvfQ

https://@www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIcpSZpaYpg

I'm pro body autonomy, but I don't like that some people are transitioning not because they've decided they'd rather date/have sex as the opposite sex or even physical dysphoria but purely because they've rationally weighed up pros and cons and decided it would be too dangerous or limiting to not alter their body. Though I realise it's almost unavoidable when you get past puberty, but I am interested in pursuing how far culture can be pushed to avoid people trying to escape this way.

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2) I guess you and I have different ideas on segregation. I think you see it as "back of the bus" extremism. But all I am talking about is the Freedom to have a men's only, women's only, black's only, Chinese only, Latino etc.... clubs or activities whatever have you...without the constant fear of being called an --ist.

A black power activity held every February doesn't make me incapable of working/socializing with whites, in any other aspect of life.
Perhaps not, but you seem to dislike culture in general not being segregated along certain lines, which is why the idea of this film where a white mermaid becomes black bothers you.

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If we can celebrate our diversity of races and cultures...why can't we celebrate the masculine and the feminine.
Because there is an attempt that you favour to essentialise it by sex.

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You can't really have a masculine focused activity in a gender pleural/neutral atmosphere anymore than you can have a black history activity in a multiracial atmosphere.
Don't complain about this ever then:


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Can you imagine a Miss America pageant with half the contestants being trans, or very gender non-conforming ? If the pageant loses its focus on femininity it stops being a pageant.
Many transwomen are more feminine than ciswomen. And a lot of transwomen especially those who aren't that feminine put in far more effort to that effect than ciswomen bother to do (time stamp on below video is important.)

https://youtu.be/ACVM1BUY8tY?t=5m10s

Also relevant timestamp:

https://youtu.be/z1afqR5QkDM?t=10m50s

Here's a couple who are married now apparently, one is a gender non conforming lesbian ciswoman, the other is a transwoman, which one seems like they fit in a beauty pageant?:


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Gay bars are designed differently from straight bars, a latino bar is different from a chinese bar.

I cannot go to a chinese restaurant and demand non-chinese food for the sake of diversity.

I will never understand how some on the far left demand we accept all sorts of diversity whilst simultaneously pretending that there are no differences between the various groups.

For example....the trans movement demanding gender neutral bathrooms...and refusing to understand why a cis-gendered woman would be uncomfortable with the idea.

Or LGBTQ groups demanding that churches marry them, instead of just marrying in courts where religious beliefs play no part.

Or insisting that the race/gender/sexuality of actors don't matter...whilst insisting on recasting white/straight/cis/male roles by minorities
Probably because we 'live in a society' it's not practical to actually cleave it up by the real tribal groups because we haven't built nations on the actual tribal groups, if we can't compromise the only solution is war. Which is what most societies are doing all the time hence 'culture war.'

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post #102 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 10:02 PM
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1) Isn't the whole trans movement about allowing/accepting people to transition as they please ?
Ideally, every person is allowed to express any gendered trait or behavior they please without any negative consequence; ie. there is no pressure to conform to any kind of stereotype whatsoever. So the decision to transition is entirely up to the individual.

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So I find it strange that you would like my ideology as one that forces people to medically transition and take cross-sexed hormones....even from as young as puberty...that sort of thinking comes from the very left.
The "solution" might come from the left, but the solution exists to solve the problem created by people (mostly) on the right. If people stopped feeling that there was anything wrong with people expressing any kind of gendered trait or behavior, then people could just be themselves and medical transitions would likely decline.

Many trans people feel forced to medically transition because it's the only way they can pass as cisgender men or women and avoid becoming the targets of the discrimination and violence coming from "your" ideology. Only people who believe that "men should be men, and women should be women" engage in discrimination and violence toward gender-nonconforming people, and most of those people are on the right. This is the category I'd probably fall into. Since I have no way to defend myself from bigots, I feel extremely unsafe walking around as a non-passing trans person. So unsafe that I'm often afraid to leave my house unless I pass as a cis man.

Ofc, since many trans people also believe that "men should be men, and women should be women", many more transition because it is in line with their own beliefs; they can't feel like "real" men or women unless they conform anatomically. And many people in the medical community support this position as well.

There are other reasons to transition, and I support everyone's decision to transition, regardless of the reason, so long as they are doing it because it's what they want and not because they feel forced to do it to legitimize themselves. Legitimacy is an artifact of the belief in the existence of two distinct genders, which I do not believe in. Nothing I do is going to make me more or less legitimate, because I am already fully legitimate exactly as I am.

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2) I guess you and I have different ideas on segregation. I think you see it as "back of the bus" extremism. But all I am talking about is the Freedom to have a men's only, women's only, black's only, Chinese only, Latino etc.... clubs or activities whatever have you...without the constant fear of being called an --ist.
One of the main reasons clubs like these were pressured to change was because "old boys' clubs" allowed white men to exchange favors and business advantages in informal settings that gave them an unfair advantage over women and minorities; ie. it kept white men in power at the expense of everyone else. There's no need for white men to invade womens' spaces, or minority spaces, if women and minorities have nothing to give them, so the invasion is obviously going to be unilateral.

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If we can celebrate our diversity of races and cultures...why can't we celebrate the masculine and the feminine.
I'm all for celebrating masculinity and femininity. I see nothing wrong with either, even when pushed to their absolute extremes. Everyone should be allowed to enjoy and celebrate whatever gender expression they prefer.

What people cannot do is assume that people who express themselves in gender-nonconforming ways are somehow abnormal or inferior. They are not. As long as everyone understands that "traditional" and "hyper" masculinity and femininity are mere aesthetic preferences, I don't see any problem with celebrating them. Just like I don't see any problem with people celebrating their love of anime or videogames or punk or vintage cars. These are all merely things which give people pleasure.

Imo, the gender dimorphism that people fight so hard to protect is just another sexual kink. People are certainly entitled to enjoy their sexual preferences. What they can't do is force everyone else to participate in their lifestyle. Many people don't enjoy that kink.

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You can't really have a masculine focused activity in a gender pleural/neutral atmosphere anymore than you can have a black history activity in a multiracial atmosphere.

Can you imagine a Miss America pageant with half the contestants being trans, or very gender non-conforming ? If the pageant loses its focus on femininity it stops being a pageant.
They could call these "femininity pageants", and have them celebrate femininity, but then, most of the contestants would probably be trans anyway.

The problem here is that you want to restrict the celebration of feminine traits and behaviors to people who are genetically female. But it is not at all abnormal, and indeed very common, for genetic males to have and prefer at least some feminine traits and for genetic females to have and prefer (even more*) masculine traits.

* Even more because masculine traits are more often considered positive in our culture and feminine traits more often considered negative. This being the main reason so many men are fine with the stereotypes and so many women hate them.

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Gay bars are designed differently from straight bars, a latino bar is different from a chinese bar.

I cannot go to a chinese restaurant and demand non-chinese food for the sake of diversity.

I will never understand how some on the far left demand we accept all sorts of diversity whilst simultaneously pretending that there are no differences between the various groups.
I only recognize differences between individual, biological entities. Groups are artificial, conceptual constructs.

The groups only exist because people have noticed differences between individuals and put everyone with this particular trait into this particular group and everyone with that particular trait into that particular group. If there were no differences to select between, there would be no groups, because there would be no basis for selection.

Example: The group "men" is obviously different from the group "women" because we have noticed differences between individuals and decided that everyone with (for example) a penis goes in the "men" group and everyone with a vagina goes in the "women" group.

The problem with a binary gender system is that it is an extremely low-resolution model of human diversity. The highest resolution model is recognizing every person as a unique individual, with their own unique sexual fingerprint; the lowest resolution (and therefore, the least-useful) model is diving everyone into one of two groups. The more you divide people into smaller and smaller groups based on distinctions, the higher the resolution of your model is, and the more intelligently and accurately you can talk about the differences between people; which is why there has been a sudden influx of "new" genders. (The distinctions have always existed, we're merely recognizing and classifying them now.)

For some reason, many people prefer the simplest and least-accurate (binary) model (probably because it makes life simple for them). Insisting on a binary system is like insisting we only use red and green to talk about color. It makes having intelligent conversations about the phenomenon of color all but impossible; people will get bogged down in discussions about whether yellow is "really" red or green. Likewise, insisting on two genders makes having intelligent conversations about human sexual diversity all but impossible.

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For example....the trans movement demanding gender neutral bathrooms...and refusing to understand why a cis-gendered woman would be uncomfortable with the idea.
Make all bathrooms gender-neutral, single-occupancy. Simple change in building codes. Problem solved.

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Or LGBTQ groups demanding that churches marry them, instead of just marrying in courts where religious beliefs play no part.

Or insisting that the race/gender/sexuality of actors don't matter...whilst insisting on recasting white/straight/cis/male roles by minorities
I don't actually like recasting characters. But that's because I think it's lazy and patronizing. I don't want second-hand characters; I want new, original characters. I understand that, from a financial perspective, that's unlikely to happen, and that recasting is a less than satisfying compromise.

I satisfy my craving for diversity by having diverse characters in my own stories.

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post #103 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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The groups only exist because people have noticed differences between individuals and put everyone with this particular trait into this particular group and everyone with that particular trait into that particular group. If there were no differences to select between, there would be no groups, because there would be no basis for selection.

Example: The group "men" is obviously different from the group "women" because we have noticed differences between individuals and decided that everyone with (for example) a penis goes in the "men" group and everyone with a vagina goes in the "women" group.
Well....you and @Persephone the dead idealize a very unrealistic world where no "groups" exist and everything can be looked at on an individual level. That is impossibly, fantastically specific and completely goes against the scientific method.

The human mind does not work like that. We learn by looking for patterns. We learn to speak, walk and eat by imitating our parents.

Just imagine if a Doctor had to wait until all a patient's symptoms appeared before starting any treatment. Obviously studies have been done, it has been statistically proven that certain diseases progress in a certain order, can be diagnosed by "x" lab test and treated with "y."

Yes every patient is an individual ...but the treatments are largely based on scientific study and statistics. Yes there are exceptions...sometimes you get a patient whose disease defies the textbooks...but it doesn't mean we through away the rulebook...the exception does not make the rule.

Just because a child happens to develop a complication from chickenpox vaccine...it doesn't mean we should throw away the idea of vaccination and just "wait and see" because "every child is an individual.

This new-age individualism of using the exception to define the rule costs us plenty each year with parents who choose not to vaccine their kids who ofcourse get chickenpox, which we then have to treat. The rational is always the same "a friend of a friend got xzy from the vaccine...so I'm gonna ignore years of research and proven results and not vaccinate my child)"

Just because there are individuals who are gender non-conforming it doesn't mean the entire idea of gender and sexual dimorphism does not exist.

Sexual dimorphism is a biological fact of human biology...it is how we reproduce. Just because some people fall out of this binary it doesn't change this. Sexual reproduction is not a societal construct.

If you take a healthy infant girl and send her and some boys to live isolated from society...she is still going to start menstruating at puberty. She isn't going to become a boy.

Races exist. If you take a black baby and raise him in China...the baby will not grow up to have chinese physical features.
-----------------------------------------------------

Do you know why people who are trans are so focused on exaggerated shows of masculinity and feminity....because they have turned gender into some abstract concept separated from your biological sex.

How can someone who is physically male with a masculine phenotypical body possibly hope to express "feeling like a woman" ...without exaggerated shows of femininity by either deliberately dressing like a stereotypical woman ...or surgery ?

How can a man objectively say he feels like a woman ? Is it because he is attracted to the same sex? (that makes him homosexual, but it doesn't make him a woman) ...is it because he likes wearing dresses ? (there are cisgender hetero women who never wear dresses) ...is it because he likes playing with dolls ( my gf never played with dolls as a girl, she hated it)....

..you see where I am going with this right? The only thing a trans person has to latch on to their ideology is external stereotypical male female characteristics...which is why as you rightfully said...a trans person can appear to play the role so well.

It's like a white person who insists he is black. How is he black ? Is it the culture that he likes ? The way we dress ? Something about our skin tone ?
How can this white person possibly express "being black" without deliberately putting black-face and dressing in a stereotypical black fashion ?

Or am I supposed to look at a white man dressed like Napoleon Dynamite and accept that he is black because he says so ? That's offensive to black people !

How can I accept his truth when objectively speaking this is not what is presented in front of me ? Its cognitively dissonant.

What you two are asking is for people to unlearn pattern recognition...that is the basis of human learning !

You are asking people to ignore clear and obvious patterns in order to appeal to the individual.

It is unscientific to claim that there are no "groups" ....statistics and science are entirely based on seeing the patterns around us.
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post #104 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
goes against the scientific method.
Someone doesn't know what the scientific method is.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
The human mind does not work like that. We learn by looking for patterns. We learn to speak, walk and eat by imitating our parents.
Pass on your developmental psychology lesson, thanks. That isn't how any of that works lol.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Just imagine if a Doctor had to wait until all a patient's symptoms appeared before starting any treatment. Obviously studies have been done, it has been statistically proven that certain diseases progress in a certain order, can be diagnosed by "x" lab test and treated with "y."
Unrelated to anything, anywhere, anytime.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Yes every patient is an individual ...but the treatments are largely based on scientific study and statistics. Yes there are exceptions...sometimes you get a patient whose disease defies the textbooks...but it doesn't mean we through away the rulebook...the exception does not make the rule.
Holy ****, our inhouse Vygotsky doesn't understand the normal distribution curve either.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Just because a child happens to develop a complication from chickenpox vaccine...it doesn't mean we should throw away the idea of vaccination and just "wait and see" because "every child is an individual.
Just because one internet faboi gets upset about a film that switched the colour of a made up actor, doesn't mean we should stop the idea of gender swapping stuff.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
This new-age individualism of using the exception to define the rule
Isn't anything

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
costs us plenty each year with parents who choose not to vaccine their kids who ofcourse get chickenpox, which we then have to treat.
Has nothing to do with gender.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
The rational is always the same "a friend of a friend got xzy from the vaccine...so I'm gonna ignore years of research and proven results and not vaccinate my child)"
Not related to gender again

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Just because there are individuals who are gender non-conforming it doesn't mean the entire idea of gender and sexual dimorphism does not exist.
Isn't what anyone is saying. Mistaking gender for sex as well.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Sexual dimorphism is a biological fact of human biology...it is how we reproduce. Just because some people fall out of this binary it doesn't change this. Sexual reproduction is not a societal construct.
Sexual dimorphism != gender

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
If you take a healthy infant girl and send her and some boys to live isolated from society...she is still going to start menstruating at puberty. She isn't going to become a boy.
Sex != gender

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Races exist.
Nope

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
If you take a black baby and raise him in China...the baby will not grow up to have chinese physical features.
He will be Chinese though.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
-----------------------------------------------------
This didn't do anything productive

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Do you know why people who are trans are so focused on exaggerated shows of masculinity and feminity....because they have turned gender into some abstract concept separated from your biological sex.
Probably best you don't speak for anyone else

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
How can someone who is physically male with a masculine phenotypical body possibly hope to express "feeling like a woman" ...without exaggerated shows of femininity by either deliberately dressing like a stereotypical woman ...or surgery ?
Ugh, getting tired, but have to slog through it all

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
How can a man objectively say he feels like a woman ?
Well, you could ask a transgender person and listen to their answer. Though I am sure, in the end, you would know more about their mental state than them.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
Is it because he is attracted to the same sex? (that makes him homosexual, but it doesn't make him a woman)
You seem very confused by certain very distinct concepts, Mr Scientific Method Film Hater Lady

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
...is it because he likes wearing dresses ? (there are cisgender hetero women who never wear dresses) ...is it because he likes playing with dolls ( my gf never played with dolls as a girl, she hated it)....
I can't even be bothered with this.

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Originally Posted by VIncymon View Post
..you see where I am going with this right?
Most incoherent rant on SAS award winner?

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final waffley bit
I trust this resolves all of your threads.

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post #105 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 01:31 PM
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.
I think you miss the point - and I have no idea what your actually arguing for. also no idea why you're so passionate about this.

racial groups correlate with ethnicity due to historical reasons. same goes for socioeconomic status etc etc. race is not causal in those instances. it sounds like you're upset that there is no causal relationship or that people are advising you not to act as if there was one? idk I haven't been reading this thread for a while. just because you want things to be simple and black and white doesn't mean it's going to be that way.

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post #106 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 03:33 PM
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Unless someone's race is an essential part of the story (for example, Pocahontas would work with a Native American actress, but wouldn't work with a Native Australian actress), I see absolutely no problem with people of whatever race playing whatever characters.

Complaining about it doesn't make one racist, but it also doesn't give one a lot of credit.
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post #107 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 03:58 PM
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@VIncymon

I actually don't have the energy to continue debating with you because your arguments are not very well thought out. And as Andy pointed out (and I've been thinking for a while,) it's often hard to know what you're arguing for and I don't think it's useful to continue a constantly evolving amorphous debate about nothing. Plus we essentially have irreconcilable differences of opinion anyway, even if your points did make sense, we'd probably just go around in circles.

Tedious really though because I know that if I were to point out that black people have a lower IQ on average and a higher crime rate and therefor they should be portrayed in film as unintelligent and unsuccessful, and discouraged from certain career paths on account of their appearance, you'd take issue with that. So it's not even like you believe what you're saying.

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post #108 of 110 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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@VIncymon

I actually don't have the energy to continue debating with you because your arguments are not very well thought out. And as Andy pointed out (and I've been thinking for a while,) it's often hard to know what you're arguing for and I don't think it's useful to continue a constantly evolving amorphous debate about nothing. Plus we essentially have irreconcilable differences of opinion anyway, even if your points did make sense, we'd probably just go around in circles.

Tedious really though because I know that if I were to point out that black people have a lower IQ on average and a higher crime rate and therefor they should be portrayed in film as unintelligent and unsuccessful, and discouraged from certain career paths on account of their appearance, you'd take issue with that. So it's not even like you believe what you're saying.
LOL....it has been many pages hasn't it....yea....we're kinda different on these ideas.

We both think the other refuses to see the point of the other ?

Sigh....differing World views are so hard to argue. Especially when you feel you've got a point in your heart that you believe to be so true..so strongly...you feel...why can't the other person see my point.

I could go on about certain things in your above post but...meh I ain't in the mood.

Well, at least we didn't resort to insulting each other.
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post #109 of 110 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 01:45 AM
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@VIncymon You're taking some really good swings at positions I don't hold and arguments I never made. I wish I had the hours (and hours) it would take to explain why everything in your post is basically wrong, but I'm not convinced you're open to hearing anything I have to say. In any case, it's OT.

Like most people, your understanding of my experience is basically nil and your opinions misinformed. Your post is a good demonstration of the same kind of fallacies antivaxers succumb to when talking about a subject they don't understand, though, so thanks for bringing them up. Using common sense to understand gender is anything but scientific.

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post #110 of 110 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 12:57 AM
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I'm hoping the next James Bond will be a black Muslim woman, just for the troll factor.
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