guardians recent video series on modern masculinity - Social Anxiety Forum
 
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-14-2020, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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guardians recent video series on modern masculinity


I thought this has been a good video series, has anyone else been watching?

Quote:
Is modern masculinity in crisis? Guardian journalist Iman Amrani speaks to men across the country about the issues affecting men and boys today
this was the latest episode I watched.


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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-14-2020, 05:17 PM
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Is modern masculinity in crisis?
I hate terms like masculinity. "Masculinity in crisis" immediately suggests that masculinity is a concept, possible to be determined and not just that, it can be in "crisis" and be "fixed" too. The existence of "masculinity" IS the problem. If people insist sticking to it and wanting to "fix" it, then I'm sorry, there's no happy ending, because any version of the masculinity, we decide to create, will never include all the men. Sure, the idea can be to include all men, but that's the point with all these behavior teachings; Be this! Oh you cant? Sucks to be you then...

"Men" are generally doing worse in the west, so why to insist these ancient social rules like masculinity, that clearly don't work, the opposite? In that documentary, they suggest that it's this masculinity, that may have somehow suddenly got into crisis and being the reason for men's unhappiness. Literally nothing has changed in the concept of an "ideal man" for example, it's just the world around that has changed and it makes it all just look more clearly how ridiculous these ideals are.

And with the changed world I mean feminism, they've succeeded to abolish the equally harmful concept called "femininity". Women can now be the hero and the damsel in distress or whatever they want. How about men? Can they play sassy secretaries in movies? Hey, I know! Lets teach about the rules of masculinity, preferably the traditional masculinity to men, who can't physically or mentally match my concept of an ideal masculine man and let's see them scramble! That'll stop them being all frustrated and angry! Yeah, of course men have to be always heroes...
Now we have incels and other angry young men, who get into all kinds of radical things and ideas to express their frustrations, and we keep using "women in the kitchen" -era terms like masculinity to engineer them, which just adds fuel to the fire. Men should realize, that it's 2020 and you can be whatever you want, women already got the memo.

Maybe this is vaguely the point of the documentary, but I think they're approaching it wrong, also I'm afraid these documentaries end up having the lame point of; "Yeah you can be like a traditional kind of man like open doors to women and stuff and still like not harass them sexually or anything, because like that's not what REAL men would do, just be confident bro" How's that gonna help that incel who is loading up the rifle? Or the guy interested in all kinds of "non-MASCULINE" -stuff, who is suicidal everyday?

Shout out to moderators! In times likes this many people are in sensitive state and they may seek comfort from the religions and take things people say here seriously, so it's really irresponsible to allow religious lunatics spread their propaganda around here with stuff like "Screw the quarantine laws, let's go to church!" "Prayers are all the medicine I need" So basically this could cause deaths.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-14-2020, 06:03 PM
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^ I think it's mostly about control. Femininity isn't usually described as being in crisis unless it's by men who want to be having more sex than they are, or can't find anyone who appeals to them physically. So they need an explanation. That's because women aren't really seen as a threat and femininity is described as being fluid. The idea of femininity as dual in nature is also already built into most belief systems like the bible where you have the Serpent but you also have Eve. Technically the serpent is androgynous but androgyny is also seen as feminine by being in opposition to masculine authority. Sleeping Beauty is another example (The Disney version is particularly amusing to me with how Maleficent transforms into a dragon.) Uh there's a lot of symbolism that addresses that fear.

If you can't define masculinity, then you can't control men. They have other methods of control for the female sex due to their increased fear of rape/physical assault and often fear of offending other people. I guess you could say that men are controlled by their competitiveness.


(yeah I might watch the video you posted later. I kind of posted this before I finished thinking as well so I'm not satisfied with this post either.)

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-14-2020, 06:57 PM
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OK so I watched that video I guess other episodes might cover other topics but that one was all about advertising. Advertising is inherently manipulative to its core though and you can't avoid it entirely but the more you do the better off you'll be.

I do think there are bigger issues that they could have talked about but yeah they probably do in other videos I guess.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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^ yea I tried to post the playlist of videos on the first series but for some reason couldn't get it right.













that is all of season 1

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 01:23 AM Thread Starter
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the ufc one I feel like could have been done on football instead. it is our national sport and we have so much history behind it. I think for instance they could have talked about the issue of being openly homosexual as a footballer.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 03:03 AM
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Mm so I've only seen a few of the videos so far but (and I thought I'd have this issue with it :P) it is reinforcing the neo-liberal status quo in places and not really talking much about structural issues men face. Some interesting discussion though.

Was in particular not a fan of the circumcision video. Not really the best day to watch this perhaps with the bull**** in the labour party but I nearly flipped a table when she brought up antisemitism lol.

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Yet the desire burns strong
On in desire for destruction
One on which she'll depend
One that ceases to deepen
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 03:55 AM Thread Starter
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I hate terms like masculinity. "Masculinity in crisis" immediately suggests that masculinity is a concept, possible to be determined and not just that, it can be in "crisis" and be "fixed" too. The existence of "masculinity" IS the problem. If people insist sticking to it and wanting to "fix" it, then I'm sorry, there's no happy ending, because any version of the masculinity, we decide to create, will never include all the men. Sure, the idea can be to include all men, but that's the point with all these behavior teachings; Be this! Oh you cant? Sucks to be you then...

"Men" are generally doing worse in the west, so why to insist these ancient social rules like masculinity, that clearly don't work, the opposite? In that documentary, they suggest that it's this masculinity, that may have somehow suddenly got into crisis and being the reason for men's unhappiness. Literally nothing has changed in the concept of an "ideal man" for example, it's just the world around that has changed and it makes it all just look more clearly how ridiculous these ideals are.

And with the changed world I mean feminism, they've succeeded to abolish the equally harmful concept called "femininity". Women can now be the hero and the damsel in distress or whatever they want. How about men? Can they play sassy secretaries in movies? Hey, I know! Lets teach about the rules of masculinity, preferably the traditional masculinity to men, who can't physically or mentally match my concept of an ideal masculine man and let's see them scramble! That'll stop them being all frustrated and angry! Yeah, of course men have to be always heroes...
Now we have incels and other angry young men, who get into all kinds of radical things and ideas to express their frustrations, and we keep using "women in the kitchen" -era terms like masculinity to engineer them, which just adds fuel to the fire. Men should realize, that it's 2020 and you can be whatever you want, women already got the memo.

Maybe this is vaguely the point of the documentary, but I think they're approaching it wrong, also I'm afraid these documentaries end up having the lame point of; "Yeah you can be like a traditional kind of man like open doors to women and stuff and still like not harass them sexually or anything, because like that's not what REAL men would do, just be confident bro" How's that gonna help that incel who is loading up the rifle? Or the guy interested in all kinds of "non-MASCULINE" -stuff, who is suicidal everyday?
these are some interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
Mm so I've only seen a few of the videos so far but (and I thought I'd have this issue with it :P) it is reinforcing the neo-liberal status quo in places and not really talking much about structural issues men face. Some interesting discussion though.

Was in particular not a fan of the circumcision video. Not really the best day to watch this perhaps with the bull**** in the labour party but I nearly flipped a table when she brought up antisemitism lol.
what are the structural issues that you feel we need to discuss? I quite like the fact the lady in this series said it's a difficult topic and yet was willing to explore it because she felt it was necessary to talk about things which people have difficulty approaching. it gives me some hope that as a society we can address certain problems instead of ignoring them. I also thought that the kids in the classroom in that first vid are incredibly smart and young kids being interviewed in general are very clued in to the politics of gender dynamics, identity, which also gives me hope for the future.

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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 08:27 AM
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I thought this has been a good video series, has anyone else been watching?

Quote:
Is modern masculinity in crisis? Guardian journalist Iman Amrani speaks to men across the country about the issues affecting men and boys today
this was the latest episode I watched.
I don't know know if I'd say masculinity is in crisis, but its symbolism certainly seems to be changing. Kind of like a chameleon changing colours, yet it's still a chameleon. There is still masculinity in men but it doesn't look like it did 50 years ago.

About the show: The fact that a woman is doing the video series pretty much says it all about the social symbolism. Like the chameleon, the outside environment is what makes him change colours. the outside social environment is what's causing the change in masculine symbolism. The perceived "crisis" is not a reflection of men themselves, it's the observation of the aggregate change in social norms.

It's pretty telling to me that a woman was authorized to make a show about men and masculinity. Would a man be authorized by the guardian to do a show about men and masculinity? Would the message be different? To me, it looks like this reporter is just skimming the surface about what makes men tick. She's going to some public and gentrified, middle-class, environments (from the little I saw of the videos). The guys are not showing her the entire nature of male masculinity--I don't think--and media outlets like The Guardian are making it look like the surface is all there is.

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 04:57 PM
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these are some interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing.



what are the structural issues that you feel we need to discuss? I quite like the fact the lady in this series said it's a difficult topic and yet was willing to explore it because she felt it was necessary to talk about things which people have difficulty approaching. it gives me some hope that as a society we can address certain problems instead of ignoring them. I also thought that the kids in the classroom in that first vid are incredibly smart and young kids being interviewed in general are very clued in to the politics of gender dynamics, identity, which also gives me hope for the future.
Things like homelessness, the education system, work place death. I watched most of the videos but not all of them so it may have been mentioned in one.

The circumcision video was good because it was being discussed, when it usually isn't at all. I just have high standards. It was short - there was a deliberate point to make it seem like circumcision is an entirely different topic to fgm. A lot of it was set up to reassure people that being against circumcision isn't antisemitic while also painting intactivists as right-wing, and other stuff like that.

It's been a while since I watched it, but I think the red pill documentary was better, but it's also specifically a men's rights thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Pill

When you discuss this kind of topic most people have a very strong knee jerk negative reaction to thinking of men as victims, as a result of that most discussion is along the lines of 'men need to show their emotions more' like it's a demand lol. Or the weird liberal-feminist stuff that's basically repackaged chivalry. Most men also find the idea of talking about male issues disgusting. Well I expect most people to be traditionalists really, and also to follow that path because it represents order where as the alternative is anything you want which people recoil from.

Lucy's bitten
Neck is bleeding bad
The teeth have long departed
Yet the desire burns strong
On in desire for destruction
One on which she'll depend
One that ceases to deepen
Too near bitter end


Black through the mountains
She turns her loosening ring
Guardian angel sings
"I think you've lost your wings, but you're still yours
You're still yours, you're still yours"

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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 07:24 PM
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I read this as "Muskulinity". Which I think if a man gots to be musky. Maybe even musty. I think "musty" is a better word for what a man outta be but "Mustulinity" stretches credibility as a misread. If he's got moldy smelling pits, he's a dude.

Gives new meaning to "Toxic muskulinity"

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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 09:39 PM
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-16-2020, 12:45 AM
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Interesting how in western culture (especially american), men products ads focus on enhancing masculinity, while in eastern culture they focus more on enhancing flashiness. European culture seems to be a mixture of both kind of.

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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-16-2020, 06:55 AM Thread Starter
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I don't know know if I'd say masculinity is in crisis, but its symbolism certainly seems to be changing. Kind of like a chameleon changing colours, yet it's still a chameleon. There is still masculinity in men but it doesn't look like it did 50 years ago.

About the show: The fact that a woman is doing the video series pretty much says it all about the social symbolism. Like the chameleon, the outside environment is what makes him change colours. the outside social environment is what's causing the change in masculine symbolism. The perceived "crisis" is not a reflection of men themselves, it's the observation of the aggregate change in social norms.

It's pretty telling to me that a woman was authorized to make a show about men and masculinity. Would a man be authorized by the guardian to do a show about men and masculinity? Would the message be different? To me, it looks like this reporter is just skimming the surface about what makes men tick. She's going to some public and gentrified, middle-class, environments (from the little I saw of the videos). The guys are not showing her the entire nature of male masculinity--I don't think--and media outlets like The Guardian are making it look like the surface is all there is.
yea so much has changed over time. I guess from this we can perceive that as men we are flexible and adaptable to change but there is a recognition that not all of us wish to (which is where the crisis occurs?) and that some of us have valid voices/concerns/opinions over these sweeping changes that may appear beyond our control.
i'm hoping this sort of thing just opens new doors really, opens more conversations, removes stigma, allows us as a society to talk and dive deeper into subjects without having being perceived as fulfilling a particular political narrative or pushing a certain agenda.

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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-16-2020, 06:58 AM Thread Starter
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Things like homelessness, the education system, work place death. I watched most of the videos but not all of them so it may have been mentioned in one.

The circumcision video was good because it was being discussed, when it usually isn't at all. I just have high standards. It was short - there was a deliberate point to make it seem like circumcision is an entirely different topic to fgm. A lot of it was set up to reassure people that being against circumcision isn't antisemitic while also painting intactivists as right-wing, and other stuff like that.

It's been a while since I watched it, but I think the red pill documentary was better, but it's also specifically a men's rights thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Pill

When you discuss this kind of topic most people have a very strong knee jerk negative reaction to thinking of men as victims, as a result of that most discussion is along the lines of 'men need to show their emotions more' like it's a demand lol. Or the weird liberal-feminist stuff that's basically repackaged chivalry. Most men also find the idea of talking about male issues disgusting. Well I expect most people to be traditionalists really, and also to follow that path because it represents order where as the alternative is anything you want which people recoil from.
I don't think they touched on those issues. would be good to see them talk about them specifically. I think if it gives a bit of a voice to something on a big platform like the guardian then it does at least allow people to think about certain issues they may not have confronted. particularly ones which may appear uncomfortable or loaded with social stigma. always room for improvement
yea I think it's done for brevity and to try to be concise. I am in favour of watching hour long discussions on a subject of interest but recognise not everyone is inclined to or has the time to spare. there are downsides to only scratching the surface of something for sure, I also wonder how much of the decision to keep it short is a reflection upon modern culture of needing everything to be small and easily digestible?

I should get around to watching that documentary, I have done a fair bit of deep diving on the red pill in the last year or so. it's weird because I had some red pill ideas in my head 20+ years ago and seemed to perceive ideas like hypergamy as truth. I then dismissed a lot of it in my 20's but now coming back these same themes noticing there is a whole culture surrounded by it, with experience I now have a bit more of a nuanced view. but this is going off topic somewhat.

yes there has definitely been some degree of shoehorning of gender identity, obviously there is going to be a pushback against that as people recognise that they do not wish to be swept up in the tide and they are individuals. order is preferred by many to chaos, inclinations differ. "repackaged chivalry" that's a really interesting take on it. never thought about it that way.

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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-16-2020, 09:18 AM
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Men suddenly aren't manning up to be fathers and leaders.
And that's okay, men don't have to be fathers and leaders if they don't want to. Being a "follower" and childless should be acceptable and no man should feel ashamed because of it.

Shout out to moderators! In times likes this many people are in sensitive state and they may seek comfort from the religions and take things people say here seriously, so it's really irresponsible to allow religious lunatics spread their propaganda around here with stuff like "Screw the quarantine laws, let's go to church!" "Prayers are all the medicine I need" So basically this could cause deaths.
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-17-2020, 12:12 AM
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Weird I think mm75 edited his entire post because I swear I read a completely different one yesterday. I think the other one had more stuff about 'feminazis' or something. Or it was an entirely different post not sure.

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-17-2020, 12:38 AM
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I don't think they touched on those issues. would be good to see them talk about them specifically. I think if it gives a bit of a voice to something on a big platform like the guardian then it does at least allow people to think about certain issues they may not have confronted. particularly ones which may appear uncomfortable or loaded with social stigma. always room for improvement
yea I think it's done for brevity and to try to be concise. I am in favour of watching hour long discussions on a subject of interest but recognise not everyone is inclined to or has the time to spare. there are downsides to only scratching the surface of something for sure, I also wonder how much of the decision to keep it short is a reflection upon modern culture of needing everything to be small and easily digestible?

I should get around to watching that documentary, I have done a fair bit of deep diving on the red pill in the last year or so. it's weird because I had some red pill ideas in my head 20+ years ago and seemed to perceive ideas like hypergamy as truth. I then dismissed a lot of it in my 20's but now coming back these same themes noticing there is a whole culture surrounded by it, with experience I now have a bit more of a nuanced view. but this is going off topic somewhat.
Yeah that's true, everything has to be short and compact now or people won't pay attention. I'm guilty of this too often. I can pay attention to certain things/topics but there's lots of things I really struggle with because I'm selective, sometimes even stuff that relates to my interests.

The documentary was controversial because of the title. It doesn't relate to the PUA/reddit community thing at all really (which I personally don't like at all because I'm put off by machiavellianism.) Just a documentary about MRA's. Anyway it's not like one group has a monopoly on the metaphor of red pill since it came from a popular film in the first place. But yeah I thought it was pretty good.

Quote:
yes there has definitely been some degree of shoehorning of gender identity, obviously there is going to be a pushback against that as people recognise that they do not wish to be swept up in the tide and they are individuals. order is preferred by many to chaos, inclinations differ. "repackaged chivalry" that's a really interesting take on it. never thought about it that way.
It occurred to me mostly after the heforshe thing came out years ago:









^ Obama is like peak neoliberalism lol

I mean I'd thought this before, but something about some of the quotes associated with that campaign was like really obvious.



It's actually very insulting that they think flipping the script is just men speaking out against hurting women lol. But yeah it had (and much of liberal feminism has,) nothing to do with egalitarianism so I wish they'd stop using the word equality and just refer to it as 'women's issues + capitalist ethos.' Or something.



and so on.

Lucy's bitten
Neck is bleeding bad
The teeth have long departed
Yet the desire burns strong
On in desire for destruction
One on which she'll depend
One that ceases to deepen
Too near bitter end


Black through the mountains
She turns her loosening ring
Guardian angel sings
"I think you've lost your wings, but you're still yours
You're still yours, you're still yours"

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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-20-2020, 08:59 AM
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the ufc one I feel like could have been done on football instead. it is our national sport and we have so much history behind it. I think for instance they could have talked about the issue of being openly homosexual as a footballer.
I think becoming the first top level openly gay footballer in the UK has become such a big issue that no one wants to take on the massively life changing responsibility that it would entail. It would lead to even more erosion of privacy for the party involved. There's also the issues that the player may have with being abused by the crowd and so on. I think many people want that martyr but that becomes the essential reason why it's so unappealing.

There was a anonymous Championship player on social media before the start of the season claiming that they were going to come out but the massive attention that the anonymous account got made them change their mind.
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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-20-2020, 11:40 AM Thread Starter
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I think becoming the first top level openly gay footballer in the UK has become such a big issue that no one wants to take on the massively life changing responsibility that it would entail. It would lead to even more erosion of privacy for the party involved. There's also the issues that the player may have with being abused by the crowd and so on. I think many people want that martyr but that becomes the essential reason why it's so unappealing.

There was a anonymous Championship player on social media before the start of the season claiming that they were going to come out but the massive attention that the anonymous account got made them change their mind.

its weird there are so many professional footballers yet historically only one has come out but I guess it is understandable really, only this last week we saw someone famous here in the uk commit suicide due to social media. you would think in 2020 no one who follows football would be ignorant to the idea that there are players that are gay. I mean statistically it's just impossible. I would have thought people would have wrapped their heads around that idea by now and just got used to it. we don't hang people for being gay any more in this country so why does society have such a problem with this? philip schofield has only just come out publicly after being in the spotlight his whole life. it seems clear that as a society we just can't accept people for who they are, we just wanna throw a load of baggage and gossip on them. I mean will there ever be a day when this sort of thing is a non issue.

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