ecofacism - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-03-2020, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
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ecofacism


wikipedia

i mean, its a solution. while democracy fails to provide a solution. lol but the problem being what/who will provide ecofacism? as such, its just a fantasy. fantasize with me!

thoughts? (controversial discussion thread, be controversial if possible)

of course the actual solution to climate crisis/bee-pocalypse/mass extinction/plastic-opalypse is detachment and spiritual/psychological/narrative transcendence.

that's one good thing from Trump, populism undermines democracy


i agree with people that say Greta is an ecofascist and i hope for an ecofascist state one day.

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post #2 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-03-2020, 11:26 PM
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Looking at how people can't even tolerate wearing face masks to save the lives of their neighbors, I can't imagine this even as a possibility. Plus it requires a long-term, abstract justification which few would be able to keep in memory for long. Maybe things would change if there were enough devastating ecological disasters but even then people will probably be more inclined to turn to religion than to science. Perhaps if a new religion based on the health of nature were to be born with a charismatic enough leader? Wonder if that's even possible now that there's internet and cameras everywhere. Harder to build a compelling mythology.
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post #3 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-03-2020, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by firelight View Post
Looking at how people can't even tolerate wearing face masks to save the lives of their neighbors, I can't imagine this even as a possibility. Plus it requires a long-term, abstract justification which few would be able to keep in memory for long. Maybe things would change if there were enough devastating ecological disasters but even then people will probably be more inclined to turn to religion than to science. Perhaps if a new religion based on the health of nature were to be born with a charismatic enough leader? Wonder if that's even possible now that there's internet and cameras everywhere. Harder to build a compelling mythology.
plus everyone laughs at Trump trying to delay elections. no one will have fascism yet, especially if the leader is so dumb . He's no Putin. but its definitely showing how **** democracy can be.

yeah things will change when the stuff hits the fan and there's more obvious disasters. by that time its a bit late... but democratic governments are just as able to suppress facts as fascist ones. that's eventually gonna make a bunch of angry people.

environmentalism is already its own thing. it doesn't need to be a religion. Greta

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post #4 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 01:29 AM
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environmentalism is already its own thing. it doesn't need to be a religion. Greta <a href="http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/images/smilies/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="" title="" >:-)</a>
Dear old Greta, wonder how she's doing.
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post #5 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 08:46 AM
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I think we have a different understanding of ecofacism my understanding is that it's green-fascists and they can **** off.

Even this sentence will be incomprehensible to people because nobody knows what fascism means

Yes I see the wikipedia article mentions Savitri Devi, she can **** off (I mean, she's dead but you know.)
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post #6 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 09:38 AM
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https://libcom.org/blog/lies-land-ag...alism-31032017

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On Saturday 17th March 2017 The Guardian published a lengthy essay by the writer, poet, and climate campaigner Paul Kingsnorth. Titled ‘The lie of the land: does environmentalism have a future in the age of Trump?’, it calls for a nationalist environmentalism that its author believes to be a suitable response to our current ecological and political conjuncture. It has been widely shared on social media and attracted praise from - among others - Guardian political commentator John Harris and Greenpeace Senior Political Advisor Rosie Rogers. This horrifies us. It is, quite simply, a dangerous piece. Its argument and its logics must be rejected by those seeking to think through an environmental politics appropriate to the era of climate change.

In the essay, Kingsnorth finds inspiration in those he calls 'the new populists' - reactionaries like Stephen Bannon and Marine Le Pen; and outlines a programme that leaves the door wide open to a fascist environmentalism. Terrifying though this is, it is not without precedent: environmentalist and ecological politics in the West too often tend towards reactionary views. For example, some environmentalists continue to advocate closing national borders to ‘protect our environment’, the sterilization of women in the Global South to reduce the global population, transmisogyny in the name of the ‘natural’, and utilize violence against Indigenous populations to ‘protect’ National Parks.

Marine Le Pen is centring ‘the environment’ in her French Presidential campaign. And there are chilling historical precedents too: the Nazis drew on the the work of early geographers and ecologists such as Friedrich Ratzel to promote ‘lebensraum’, the ‘living space’ held to be necessary for the flourishing of a ‘pure’ nation. It is also worth noting that Kingsnorth situates himself within the legacy of the anti-globalization movement which, although largely left-wing, sometimes repeated or overlapped with fascist ideas and imagery.1 And whilst we focus on the essay itself in what follows, Kingsnorth himself is no stranger reactionary nationalism.2

In this piece we outline our key areas of concern with Kingsnorth’s argument and connect them to broader errors in the way that he understands the world. Although he attempts to distinguish between a ‘benevolent green nationalism’ and the quite-obviously less benevolent policies of the right, we show that no such separation can be made. Indeed, the key oppositions that structure his argument are precisely those that structure fascist environmentalism. Rejecting these, we close this essay by pointing to the possibility of anti-fascist and decolonial ecological struggle.
(I can't really copy and paste all of these links.)

http://www.spunk.org/library/places/...630/peter.html

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In our zeal to condemn the status quo, radicals often carelessly toss about epithets like "fascist" and "ecofascist," thus contributing to a sort of conceptual inflation that in no way furthers effective social critique. In such a situation, it is easy to overlook the fact that there are still virulent strains of fascism in our political culture which, however marginal, demand our attention. One of the least recognized or understood of these strains is the phenomenon one might call "actually existing ecofascism," that is, the preoccupation of authentically fascist movements with environmentalist concerns. In order to grasp the peculiar intensity and endurance of this affiliation, we would do well to examine more closely its most notorious historical incarnation, the so-called "green wing" of German National Socialism.
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post #7 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 03:31 PM
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I'm assuming you just mean you advocate for a government that takes authoritarian measures to curb climate change and not ecofascism, I'm pretty sure openly advocating for actual ecofascism would lead to a locked thread pretty quick.
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post #8 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 03:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
I think we have a different understanding of ecofacism my understanding is that it's green-fascists and they can **** off.

Even this sentence will be incomprehensible to people because nobody knows what fascism means

Yes I see the wikipedia article mentions Savitri Devi, she can **** off (I mean, she's dead but you know.)

i was thinking more of fascist-greens


its almost as if it would be easier to manage the global commons with some kind of global organization/agreement rather than to revert to fascism. if only we had thought of that and actually followed through in a meaningful way

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post #9 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 03:40 PM
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i was thinking more of fascist-greens


its almost as if it would be easier to manage the global commons with some kind of global organization/agreement rather than to revert to fascism. if only we had thought of that and actually followed through in a meaningful way
Well in general, people really can't work together towards goals. Maybe they could once since people seem to have hope about that, but it's not happening really is it not in the response to covid, or anything else.

But anyway I think what you mean is an authoritarian response to environmental stuff. It just gives me a headache like everyone uses fascist to mean authoritarian (or really for anything they dislike,) though even the wikipedia page you linked is talking about Nazis.
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post #10 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 03:43 PM Thread Starter
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I'm assuming you just mean you advocate for a government that takes authoritarian measures to curb climate change and not ecofascism, I'm pretty sure openly advocating for actual ecofascism would lead to a locked thread pretty quick.
this thread isn't about advocating for or against anything untoward, just a discussion of those things. so what you are saying is that you're against any kind of fascism no matter what the horrible alternative might be. i'm saying (fantasizing) that the idiots that are the mass of citizens of country X are too stupid to vote in favor of anything that will prevent destruction of the global commons. as has been pointed out to me on here, the "tragedy of the commons" as it were. though when that was suggested to me it was more in a oh well, nothing we can do type context. but duh market regulation can certainly alter behavior. the idiots will never go for it. which is why we need them to be more idiotic so that they can be tricked/froced into doing what's good for them/the future people. we need more Trump followed by catastrophe, and then a savior appears. rather than the forever ongoing "oh the voters will never go for real change" green-washing + catastrophe + "oh well, we did what we could".


and on the subject of what gets a thread locked, did you see the thread titled "how sexist are you" where people revealed how sexist they are? still exists to this day. if people displaying their sexism is A-ok then talking about fascism surely should be ok. by all means convince me that fascism is necessarily evil.

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post #11 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 03:53 PM
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I don't really know what you're getting at but fascism is a ideology that advocates for racial purity, eugenics, nationalism, closed borders and strict gender roles in service of the continued existence of the state. Any ideology can be authoritarian.

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Italian Fascism pursued what it called "moral hygiene" of youth, particularly regarding sexuality.[237] Fascist Italy promoted what it considered normal sexual behaviour in youth while denouncing what it considered deviant sexual behaviour.[237] It condemned pornography, most forms of birth control and contraceptive devices (with the exception of the condom), homosexuality and prostitution as deviant sexual behaviour, although enforcement of laws opposed to such practices was erratic and authorities often turned a blind eye.[237] Fascist Italy regarded the promotion of male sexual excitation before puberty as the cause of criminality amongst male youth, declared homosexuality a social disease and pursued an aggressive campaign to reduce prostitution of young women.[237]

Mussolini perceived women's primary role as primarily child bearers and men, warriors—once saying: "War is to man what maternity is to the woman".[238] In an effort to increase birthrates, the Italian Fascist government gave financial incentives to women who raised large families and initiated policies intended to reduce the number of women employed.[239] Italian Fascism called for women to be honoured as "reproducers of the nation" and the Italian Fascist government held ritual ceremonies to honour women's role within the Italian nation.[240] In 1934, Mussolini declared that employment of women was a "major aspect of the thorny problem of unemployment" and that for women, working was "incompatible with childbearing". Mussolini went on to say that the solution to unemployment for men was the "exodus of women from the work force".[241]

The German Nazi government strongly encouraged women to stay at home to bear children and keep house.[242] This policy was reinforced by bestowing the Cross of Honor of the German Mother on women bearing four or more children. The unemployment rate was cut substantially, mostly through arms production and sending women home so that men could take their jobs. Nazi propaganda sometimes promoted premarital and extramarital sexual relations, unwed motherhood and divorce, but at other times the Nazis opposed such behaviour.[243]

The Nazis decriminalized abortion in cases where fetuses had hereditary defects or were of a race the government disapproved of, while the abortion of healthy pure German, Aryan fetuses remained strictly forbidden.[244] For non-Aryans, abortion was often compulsory. Their eugenics program also stemmed from the "progressive biomedical model" of Weimar Germany.[245] In 1935, Nazi Germany expanded the legality of abortion by amending its eugenics law, to promote abortion for women with hereditary disorders.[244] The law allowed abortion if a woman gave her permission and the fetus was not yet viable[246][247] and for purposes of so-called racial hygiene.[248][249]

The Nazis said that homosexuality was degenerate, effeminate, perverted and undermined masculinity because it did not produce children.[250] They considered homosexuality curable through therapy, citing modern scientism and the study of sexology, which said that homosexuality could be felt by "normal" people and not just an abnormal minority.[251] Open homosexuals were interned in Nazi concentration camps.[252]
This is the kind of thing fascists like to argue about with each other:

Quote:
Fascism has been criticized for being ideologically dishonest. Major examples of ideological dishonesty have been identified in Italian fascism's changing relationship with German Nazism.[274][275] Fascist Italy's official foreign policy positions were known to commonly utilize rhetorical ideological hyperbole to justify its actions, although during Dino Grandi's tenure as Italy's foreign minister the country engaged in realpolitik free of such fascist hyperbole.[276] Italian fascism's stance towards German Nazism fluctuated from support from the late 1920s to 1934, when it celebrated Hitler's rise to power and meeting with Hitler in 1934; to opposition from 1934 to 1936 after the assassination of Italy's allied leader in Austria, Engelbert Dollfuss, by Austrian Nazis; and again back to support after 1936, when Germany was the only significant power that did not denounce Italy's invasion and occupation of Ethiopia.

After antagonism exploded between Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy over the assassination of Austrian Chancellor Dollfuss in 1934, Mussolini and Italian fascists denounced and ridiculed Nazism's racial theories, particularly by denouncing its Nordicism, while promoting Mediterraneanism.[275] Mussolini himself responded to Nordicists' claims of Italy being divided into Nordic and Mediterranean racial areas due to Germanic invasions of Northern Italy by claiming that while Germanic tribes such as the Lombards took control of Italy after the fall of Ancient Rome, they arrived in small numbers (about 8,000) and quickly assimilated into Roman culture and spoke the Latin language within fifty years.[277] Italian fascism was influenced by the tradition of Italian nationalists scornfully looking down upon Nordicists' claims and taking pride in comparing the age and sophistication of ancient Roman civilization as well as the classical revival in the Renaissance to that of Nordic societies that Italian nationalists described as "newcomers" to civilization in comparison.[274] At the height of antagonism between the Nazis and Italian fascists over race, Mussolini claimed that the Germans themselves were not a pure race and noted with irony that the Nazi theory of German racial superiority was based on the theories of non-German foreigners, such as Frenchman Arthur de Gobineau.[278] After the tension in German-Italian relations diminished during the late 1930s, Italian fascism sought to harmonize its ideology with German Nazism and combined Nordicist and Mediterranean racial theories, noting that Italians were members of the Aryan Race, composed of a mixed Nordic-Mediterranean subtype.[275]

In 1938, Mussolini declared upon Italy's adoption of antisemitic laws that Italian fascism had always been antisemitic,[275] In fact, Italian fascism did not endorse antisemitism until the late 1930s when Mussolini feared alienating antisemitic Nazi Germany, whose power and influence were growing in Europe. Prior to that period there had been notable Jewish Italians who had been senior Italian fascist officials, including Margherita Sarfatti, who had also been Mussolini's mistress.[275] Also contrary to Mussolini's claim in 1938, only a small number of Italian fascists were staunchly antisemitic (such as Roberto Farinacci and Giuseppe Preziosi), while others such as Italo Balbo, who came from Ferrara which had one of Italy's largest Jewish communities, were disgusted by the antisemitic laws and opposed them.[275] Fascism scholar Mark Neocleous notes that while Italian fascism did not have a clear commitment to antisemitism, there were occasional antisemitic statements issued prior to 1938, such as Mussolini in 1919 declaring that the Jewish bankers in London and New York were connected by race to the Russian Bolsheviks and that eight percent of the Russian Bolsheviks were Jews.[279]
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post #12 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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I don't really know what you're getting at but fascism is a ideology that advocates for racial purity, nationalism, closed borders and strict gender roles in service of the continued existence of the state. Any ideology can be authoritarian.
that's a narrow, historical definition. but sure just read "authoritarian" when i write "fascism"

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Definitions
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy

thats why its ecofascism. replace gender role etc morality with green morality.

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post #13 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 04:04 PM
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Yeah but that's not really how it works, you might as well say eco-Stalinism you know. Anyway it would help if you listed the stuff you wanted to change.

edit: and apparently someone else did



edit:

also just found this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecoauthoritarianism
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post #14 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah but that's not really how it works, you might as well say eco-Stalinism you know. Anyway it would help if you listed the stuff you wanted to change.

ok the same wide scale ideological control of people
forced green policies
removal of opposition by force
general subversion/control of the masses
green economic regulation
aspirations towards imperialism
self-sufficiency
and yes also approaching closed borders (green = opposed to tourism, unnecessary travel)
oh i'd add population control also, take away the right to breed.
and so on and so on


*edit no not eco-stalinism, i don't believe in those things listed as being solutions to the problems we have.

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post #15 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 04:21 PM
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@andy1984

how does imperialism fit in? It's driven by expanding to accrue more resources. I feel like it conflicts psychologically with self sufficiency.

Basically no one from any political background is going to agree to taking away the right to breed.

(I'm pretty sure the eco-Stalinism thing was a joke firstly because it's from 4chan and also because it makes no sense.)
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
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@andy1984

how does imperialism fit in? It's driven by expanding to accrue more resources. I feel like it conflicts psychologically with self sufficiency.

Basically no one from any political background is going to agree to taking away the right to breed.

(I'm pretty sure the eco-Stalinism thing was a joke firstly because it's from 4chan and also because it makes no sense.)
expanding to protect more "resources".

china's one child policy was just that though.

no one would agree to genocide either. it requires mass ideological control, mass hysteria, etc. these things exist.

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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 04:35 PM
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So this thread really is about actual ecofascism. lol.
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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 04:46 PM
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China didn't keep it up long term and it turns out having a one child policy means a massive gender bias in births (unsurprisingly,) leading to imbalance. If you're an antinatalist I guess that wouldn't matter, but I'm not sure you can make a moral argument for phasing out all Humans without also phasing out various other species.

But I guess it is hard to find fault with trees and they do exist, so I do see your point somewhat. On the other hand if we destroy the trees we die anyway so I mean problem solved.
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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well i mean one needn't remain committed to a solution once the problem is gone or a better solution appears. unless you're a christian

"I take what is mine. I pay the iron price."
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 08-04-2020, 05:15 PM
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I guess what you'd want to create would be some kind of equivalent of capitalist realism. Where people are convinced that a certain society is at the end of history and can't think up new possibilities.
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