Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 03:28 AM Thread Starter
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Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


Should the "don't ask, don't tell" policy in the military be abolished?

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No apology from Gen. Pace for gay stance

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon's top general said Tuesday he should not have voiced his personal view that homosexuality is immoral and should have just stated his support for the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy in an interview that has drawn criticism from lawmakers and gay-rights groups.

The written statement by Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, did not apologize for his stance on homosexuality. In a newspaper interview Monday, Pace likened homosexual acts to adultery and said the military should not condone it by allowing gays to serve openly in the armed forces.

After a flurry of condemnation Tuesday, Pace issued a statement acknowledging that the Defense Department's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays is a sensitive subject and said: "I should have focused more on my support of the policy and less on my personal moral views."

The military lets gay men and lesbians serve if they keep their sexual orientation private. Commanders may not ask, and service members may not tell. More than 10,000 troops, including more than 50 specialists in Arabic, have been discharged since President Clinton signed it into law in 1994.

In an interview with the Pentagon Channel, the military's in-house television station, Defense Secretary Robert Gates declined to answer a question on his opinion of the policy but made what seemed to be a mild rebuke of Pace.

"Now look, you know I think personal opinion really doesn't have a place here," Gates said. "What's important is that we have a law, a statute that governs 'don't ask, don't tell.'"

He added: "That's the policy of this department, and it's my responsibility to execute that policy as effectively as we can. As long as the law is what it is, that's what we'll do."

In an interview Monday with the Chicago Tribune, Pace was asked about the policy. He said he supports it, that it allows gays to serve and that it does not make "a judgment about individual acts."

He also said: "I believe that homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts. I do not believe that the armed forces of the United States are well served by saying through our policies that it's OK to be immoral in any way."

Lawmakers of both parties criticized Pace's remarks.

"We need the most talented people; we need the language skills. We need patriotic Americans who exist across the board in our population," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif. "We don't need moral judgment from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs."

Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), R-Va., one of Congress' most respected authorities on military matters and a former Navy secretary, said, "I respectfully but strongly disagree with the chairman's view that homosexuality is immoral."

Also chastising Pace was Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Mass., who has introduced legislation repealing the policy.

"Our military is struggling to find and keep the soldiers we need," Meehan said of the strain caused by fighting two wars. "We are turning away good troops to enforce a costly policy of discrimination."

In a sign of how politically sensitive the issue remains, Democratic leaders have yet to schedule debate on Meehan's bill.

White House spokesman Tony Snow said President Bush "has always said that the most important thing is that we ought not to prejudge one another. But when it comes to government policy, it's been in place for a long time and we will continue to execute it according to the letter of the law."

Presidential contender Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), R-Ariz., who spoke to reporters outside a fundraiser in Beverly Hills, Calif., said Pace "should be given a chance to explain himself." Asked for his own view on homosexuality in the military, McCain said he believes the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is "successful and should be maintained."

Pace, a native of New York City, and a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, said in the interview that he based his views on his upbringing.

"As an individual, I would not want (acceptance of gay behavior) to be our policy, just like I would not want it to be our policy that if we were to find out that so-and-so was sleeping with somebody else's wife, that we would just look the other way, which we do not. We prosecute that kind of immoral behavior," he said, according to the audio and a transcript released by his staff.

Two gay advocacy groups strongly condemned Pace's remarks.

"General Pace's comments are outrageous, insensitive and disrespectful to the 65,000 lesbian and gay troops now serving in our armed forces," said the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, which has represented some of the thousands dismissed from the military for their sexual orientation.

"Their sexual orientation has nothing to do with their capability to serve in the U.S. military," said Luis Vizcaino, spokesman for the gay rights group Human Rights Campaign.

"Don't ask, don't tell" was passed by Congress after a firestorm of debate in which it was argued that allowing homosexuals to serve openly would hurt troop morale and recruitment and undermine the cohesion of combat units.
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 04:55 AM
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Re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by Amelia
Should the "don't ask, don't tell" policy in the military be abolished?

Quote:
No apology from Gen. Pace for gay stance

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon's top general said Tuesday he should not have voiced his personal view that homosexuality is immoral and should have just stated his support for the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy in an interview that has drawn criticism from lawmakers and gay-rights groups.

He also said: "I believe that homosexual acts between individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts. I do not believe that the armed forces of the United States are well served by saying through our policies that it's OK to be immoral in any way."
This guy is an idiot and it is rather frightening that this a-hole is one of the Pentagon's top generals.

How can anyone figure that someone's sexual orientation can determine how well or poorly they will do on a job??

Who the hell is this guy to decide who "moral" or "immoral"?
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 11:56 AM
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re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


yea, it should be abolished.

If there was a draft, no doubt announcing your sexuality wouldn't get you out of it. They need gays in the military.
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 11:57 AM
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re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


yes the policy should be abolished.

but why are we giving this general a hard time? he gave his opinion.

that general is a freedom fighter. the gay rights groups are by far the most annoying of all special interest groups. who cares if they dont like what he said?

america=land of the free! (unless you say something the gays dont like, then you must apologize immediately!)

"charge the enemy! and remember you are from old virginia." george pickett. july 3, 1863.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 02:13 PM
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 06:32 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by odun
yes the policy should be abolished.

but why are we giving this general a hard time? he gave his opinion.

that general is a freedom fighter. the gay rights groups are by far the most annoying of all special interest groups. who cares if they dont like what he said?

america=land of the free! (unless you say something the gays dont like, then you must apologize immediately!)
How do you figure this guy is a "freedom fighter", a term I find you use far too often and loosely? Because of his bigoted, biased attitude against people who could serve their country, people that WANT TO SERVE and provide much needed support in the military? How is that fighting for freedom? By denying people entry into our military program by judging what they do in their own bedrooms? The "freedom fighters" are on the other side of the issue if you ask me. To be free to be who you are without bias or judgement from others, without discrimination.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 07:40 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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but why are we giving this general a hard time? he gave his opinion.
because he is in a position of power over the people he so detests and wants prosecuted.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 08:36 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by mserychic
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Originally Posted by odun
but why are we giving this general a hard time? he gave his opinion.
because he is in a position of power over the people he so detests and wants prosecuted.
so one must accept the gay agenda to be a general?

that in itself is bigotry.

agree with us, or lose your job! uh, yeah.

Quote:
How do you figure this guy is a "freedom fighter", a term I find you use far too often and loosely? Because of his bigoted, biased attitude against people who could serve their country, people that WANT TO SERVE and provide much needed support in the military? How is that fighting for freedom? By denying people entry into our military program by judging what they do in their own bedrooms? The "freedom fighters" are on the other side of the issue if you ask me. To be free to be who you are without bias or judgement from others, without discrimination.
i dont agree with anything the general said. but i admire him for speaking his mind and standing firm. i can respect people i disagree with.

i dont agree that homosexuality is immoral. im not a huge fan of subjective morality to begin with.

and i do stand by my remarks about the gay special interest groups. they are constantly trying to push their agenda. constantly. gay this, gay that, lets have little johnny read 'daddy's roomate' in the second grade. enough is enough!

"charge the enemy! and remember you are from old virginia." george pickett. july 3, 1863.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:03 PM
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re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


So odun, are you saying that you don't care if gay people fight for equality, so long as they make no mention to how they're fighting for equality?

The easy way to get gay people to stop "pushing their agenda" of course we be to give them equal rights along with everyone else.

Have a nice day,
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:17 PM
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re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by Hypatia
So odun, are you saying that you don't care if gay people fight for equality, so long as they make no mention to how they're fighting for equality?

The easy way to get gay people to stop "pushing their agenda" of course we be to give them equal rights along with everyone else.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
i support their fight for equality.

at the same time, i understand that there are a lot of people out their who find the gay lifestyle an aberrant way to live. i can respect their views, even if i disagree.

i think gay rights groups have made serious, serious p.r. mistakes in their fight for equality. theyve focused on stuff that doesnt pass the 'yuck test' in middle america: gay adoption, gay boy scout leaders, school books about the gay lifestyle etc etc.

they should have focused their efforts on ending employment discrimination, ending housing discrimination and fighting for marriage rights.

"charge the enemy! and remember you are from old virginia." george pickett. july 3, 1863.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:20 PM
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Ive spoken to a number of soldiers and they said that was a stupid policy that Clinton set forth. I think if you were to do a poll that most enlisted men would be against gays serving in the military all together.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:25 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by Hypatia
So odun, are you saying that you don't care if gay people fight for equality, so long as they make no mention to how they're fighting for equality?

The easy way to get gay people to stop "pushing their agenda" of course we be to give them equal rights along with everyone else.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
Im curious as to what equal rights they dont have in the military. Im guessing they dont have the right to publicly declare that they want another man for sex or whatever. You do realize that if they were to publicly declare something like this than they would probably be ostracized by most of the soldiers around them.

"Toto IV"
It's gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had............
Sometimes when the world goes crazy all you can do is laugh. It hides the tears.
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:31 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by odun
i support their fight for equality.

at the same time, i understand that there are a lot of people out their who find the gay lifestyle an aberrant way to live. i can respect their views, even if i disagree.

i think gay rights groups have made serious, serious p.r. mistakes in their fight for equality. theyve focused on stuff that doesnt pass the 'yuck test' in middle america: gay adoption, gay boy scout leaders, school books about the gay lifestyle etc etc.

they should have focused their efforts on ending employment discrimination, ending housing discrimination and fighting for marriage rights.
But that's the eternal conflict that goes on within groups that are being discriminated against. For example, there was a huge debate in the early women's movement about whether women should focus exclusively on suffrage or if they should work on jobs, education, daycare, divorce, marital rights, etc. They discovered that it was easier if what they were fighting for could be somehow fit into the context of women's "proper" societal roles. For example, it was easier to get daycare services, because women were viewed as child rearers. It was easier for women to get jobs if those jobs centered on women's "traditional" roles. For example, it was easier to get a job as a cleaning woman or a teacher than it was to get one as a lawyer or a banker

But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't have fought for those things. That just means that it will probably be harder in the long run to achieve those things.

But someone *has* to be doing it, so-called "yuck factor" or not.

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:39 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by odun
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Originally Posted by mserychic
Quote:
Originally Posted by odun
but why are we giving this general a hard time? he gave his opinion.
because he is in a position of power over the people he so detests and wants prosecuted.
so one must accept the gay agenda to be a general?

that in itself is bigotry.

agree with us, or lose your job! uh, yeah.
When did I say that he should lose his job? All I said is that is why this is being made a big deal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by odun
i think gay rights groups have made serious, serious p.r. mistakes in their fight for equality. theyve focused on stuff that doesnt pass the 'yuck test' in middle america: gay adoption, gay boy scout leaders, school books about the gay lifestyle etc etc.
I don't think anything gay passes the "yuck test" in middle america so we should just give up. No sense in fighting for what is "yucky." We should just put you in charge because you know so much about what it's like to be a minority with less rights than everyone else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by odun
they should have focused their efforts on ending employment discrimination, ending housing discrimination and fighting for marriage rights.
Actually we have it just doesn't make the news because it doesn't rank as high on your silly "yuck test."
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:40 PM
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re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


I actually find it kind of funny that it's okay for our soldiers to be convicts, but if they're gay, then that's just immoral.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:44 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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I actually find it kind of funny that it's okay for our soldiers to be convicts, but if they're gay, then that's just immoral.


As if the entire concept of the military is that moral to begin with. We live in a messed up world where it's okay to kill other people, but not love them.

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:48 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by stylicho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypatia
So odun, are you saying that you don't care if gay people fight for equality, so long as they make no mention to how they're fighting for equality?

The easy way to get gay people to stop "pushing their agenda" of course we be to give them equal rights along with everyone else.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
Im curious as to what equal rights they dont have in the military. Im guessing they dont have the right to publicly declare that they want another man for sex or whatever. You do realize that if they were to publicly declare something like this than they would probably be ostracized by most of the soldiers around them.
More than 10,000 men and women have been discharged for the sole reason of being gay. Don't Ask Don't Tell says you can not ask, tell or ENGAGE in homosexual acts. I don't exactly find that equal.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:52 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


Quote:
Originally Posted by mserychic
Quote:
Originally Posted by stylicho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypatia
So odun, are you saying that you don't care if gay people fight for equality, so long as they make no mention to how they're fighting for equality?

The easy way to get gay people to stop "pushing their agenda" of course we be to give them equal rights along with everyone else.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
Im curious as to what equal rights they dont have in the military. Im guessing they dont have the right to publicly declare that they want another man for sex or whatever. You do realize that if they were to publicly declare something like this than they would probably be ostracized by most of the soldiers around them.
More than 10,000 men and women have been discharged for the sole reason of being gay. Don't Ask Don't Tell says you can not ask, tell or ENGAGE in homosexual acts. I don't exactly find that equal.
I sense bulls***. Where does it say you cant ENGAGE in homosexual acts?

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There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had............
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 09:54 PM
 
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


Quote:
Originally Posted by stylicho
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypatia
So odun, are you saying that you don't care if gay people fight for equality, so long as they make no mention to how they're fighting for equality?

The easy way to get gay people to stop "pushing their agenda" of course we be to give them equal rights along with everyone else.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
Im curious as to what equal rights they dont have in the military. Im guessing they dont have the right to publicly declare that they want another man for sex or whatever. You do realize that if they were to publicly declare something like this than they would probably be ostracized by most of the soldiers around them.
They can be prosecuted for sodomy (which is defined as any "unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal...Penetration, however slight, is sufficient
to complete the offense." Also, that is sufficient for a court-martial).

I don't buy any of that "gay agenda" bull****. Nobody's trying to gay up America, as if any of the bigots this country is full of would ever let that happen. He's a "freedom fighter" because he's pushing the status quo? Yeah, my *** he is. I have so much respect for a bigot standing up to those meanie weanies who don't hate gays.
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 03-14-2007, 10:06 PM
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Re: re: Don't ask, don't tell: gays in the military


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Originally Posted by Hypatia
Quote:
Originally Posted by bezoomny
I actually find it kind of funny that it's okay for our soldiers to be convicts, but if they're gay, then that's just immoral.


As if the entire concept of the military is that moral to begin with. We live in a messed up world where it's okay to kill other people, but not love them.

Have a nice day,
Kelly
I wish it was all about love. But thats not what I see in my line of work. All I hear on the radio is "BJ 21", "BJ 15", any of you guys interested in cream cheese . And all I see on the bathroom stalls are phone numbers of guys who are trying to get a little. I dont think that is going to pass the "Yuck factor" in middle America. Ive actually been around a number of gay guys. I even lived in the same house with one for about a week, with nobody else there . So Im not completely unaware of whats going on in the homosexual world.

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It's gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
There's nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
I bless the rains down in Africa
Gonna take some time to do the things we never had............
Sometimes when the world goes crazy all you can do is laugh. It hides the tears.
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