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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 04:13 AM Thread Starter
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The way others view us


OK IVE EDITED THIS FOR RACIAL PARITY. PLEASE ACTUALLY READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN BELOW BEFORE POSTING A "I DONT GET IT - SO JAPANESE PEOPLE ARE COOLER THAN WESTERNERS??" TYPE REPLY. I've just had a haircut and I don't want to pull any more of the remaining strands out as they block up my vacuum cleaner. Its a metaphor - an image chosen to represent something else entirely, to get the audience to ask questions and think about it more. Clearly it was the daftest idea I've ever had, but at least we can leave it up here as a warning to anyone else who tries to get stupidly creative...
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I like this cartoon. Its a bit small down there, so indulge me - open it and have a look ..

So whats going on? Pretty simple isn't it. The THROUMOT girls look at him, and cos of the way he looks and what he's doing, they reject him. Then he goes to QUAGAR, and because of the way he looks and what he is doing, they think he's AWESOME!

SO - Who is right? The QUAGARN, or the THROUMOT Women? One loves him, one hates him. But, what does it truly say about him as A HUMAN BEING, as opposed to a commodity (looks, height, money, popularity) as judged by other human beings? Does it mean "if you wanna be happy you've gotta go to Japan" - or can you find some other meaning to it?

They are both comparing him to a manufactured ideal that exists in their own head ... so is he only a valuable human when he's in QUAGAR, but 100% disgusting, valueless human in THROUMOT?

If he is truly a repulsive, unlovable human being, how can it be that other humans would value him? If he concentrated only on what the QUAGARN girls thought of him, and chose to ignore the more fickle, judgemental THROUMOT ones, would he feel happier, or sad? Is he bound by some cosmic law to listen to what the THROUMOTS say? I don't think he is. Are both groups right to judge him on only a very brief time sampling of who he is? The QUAGARN girls are in a way making the same error - the ALL OR NOTHING ERROR. The THROUMOTS see him as 100% bad, the QUAGARS as 100% good. They can't both be right. Reality lies somewhere in the middle .... Can they really be 100% sure they have 'weighed and measured' him in 2 minutes flat?

The fact that one people loves him and one hates him shows that other peoples views are NOT a true measure of who he is. There will be some people he gets on with, some who will be neutral, and some who hate him. The ones he gets on with may be far fewer than the other groups - but if charisma man met and fell in love with a caring QUAGARN girl who he was close to, and whose family loved and accepted him, would that not make him feel fulfilled?

All of us have our THROUMOTS and our QUAGARS - but sometimes we are so focused on the group that dislikes us that we fail to see the ones that can see our positive qualities. Once we find our QUAGARS, then its time to begin the longer process of getting to know them properly - making sure we remember how inaccurate are THROUMOTS are Getting to know them means letting them know your weaknesses as well as your strnghts. Being vulnerable. Letting them in.

This cartoon reminds me that being afraid other peoples views, based as they are on biases, their own preconceptions and fears, is not useful to us, and that if we can choose not to, we can feel better. Sometimes its REALLY hard not to think this way and its not WRONG to, but if it makes us sad, is there another way we can see it thats more helpful to us?

I don't intend this post to be an absolute ... its a silly little cartoon just to give your thinking a little nudge. You might choose to dismiss it out of hand, or you might choose to play with the ideas here a little. If it were true though, how might this information be used to make YOU happier?

Hello, QUAGARI
Attached Thumbnails
char.JPG  

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 04:28 AM
 
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Re: The way others view us


lol awesome , i like japan and it culture
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 11:41 AM
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Re: The way others view us


Well written, Ross. Using "Western women" and "Japanese women" as metaphors is both unique and rather funny too (especially with the cartoon). I need to find me some Japanese. Metaphorical Japanese. Unless they are Japanese. Japanese Japanese? Ok, no more comments.

For those who didn't read it, Ross advocates moving to Asia.

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He ran because it grounded him in basics. There was both life and death in it; it was unadulterated by media hype, trivial cares, political meddling...It was all joy and woe, hard as a diamond; it made him weary beyond comprehension. But it also made him free.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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I know. I'm going for an arthouse feel to my posts these days.

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 12:19 PM
 
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Nice. Western vs. Japanese views. This cartoon explains that westerners tend to overanalyze too much and be too criticial of other people while the Japanese are not.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, thats one way of viewing it.

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 03:43 PM
 
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Interesting, I think SA is more or less unknown in Japan due to their collectivist culture. I read something in a newspaper a while ago as well explaining SA as a disease of 'liberal culture' and it kind of made sense. I think personally we are shaped to a large extent by the culture we grow up in.

I went traveling in Japan a year ago, and my SA was a lot less as I didn't feel like people were judging me much really. Also as a 'gaijin' you get a kind of special status which is a confidence-boost sometimes. There's a lot of private racism towards foreigners though, much less so in China & other Asian countries etc all of which are good destinations for an SAer imo.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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lol

I guess my metaphor has gone down pretty literally

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 06:43 PM
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I don't get it, why would they like him in Japan?

Quote:
Interesting, I think SA is more or less unknown in Japan due to their collectivist culture. I read something in a newspaper a while ago as well explaining SA as a disease of 'liberal culture' and it kind of made sense. I think personally we are shaped to a large extent by the culture we grow up in.
People in the west romanticize the east to much, "shame" of being different from the norm is bigger there than in the west, and it is very important to save face and not to be an embarrasment for your family.

i dunno man...who knows...ya know??
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-06-2008, 07:15 PM
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Re: The way others view us


Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAboutToEXPLODE
I don't get it, why would they like him in Japan?
Joke about male size (i think).

Whoa everyone sees western as being more judgemental and critical. I'm Chinese and i'm against asian ideals. I find it SAish. Being normal is very important, being different can be shunned upon. Image is everything. Parents can be very strict and controlling, trying to determine your life and have goals that everyone else wants. Expecting you to achieve is very high. Well Asian countries are verylawful and harsh on the people.


I use to be a japanese fanatic, but eventually realized it was like dreaming and a way of escaping. Now I fall to western ideals, I find them more focused on independence and strength as an individual and helps me aspire to beat sa. I'm ashamed of being a fanatic before.

Took me awhile to write this. Hardtime expressing myself these days.

"An idle mind is the devil's workshop."
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 04:30 AM Thread Starter
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Re: The way others view us


Who says that people with SA think too concretely?

GUYS

ITS A METAPHOR. iM NOT TRYING TO MAKE ANY CLAIMS ABOUT THE WEST OR ASIA. I'm trying to show you that people will like or dislike us for random reasons, IN THEIR OWN HEADS.

Feeling good about ourselves is NOT a matter of cold, hard logic. The happiest people are able to blank out the majority of negative experiences (whilst positively learning from the important ones) because they know that in the grand scheme of things, they DONT MATTER. People with SA on the other hand, obsess over every little look or slight and block out the POSITIVE things. "How can I ignore the negative? Its all around me? Thats not logical". Well its also not logical to only concntrate on the negative, but thats what SA does to us. Another method id to adjust our threshold of what we consider 'negative'. Some think a bump in the street is awful, whereas others need to get punched in the face before thet see it as awful. Its a choice, and in no way a logical one. If its not logical, and therefore not binary (on/off; open/shut) then there is room for maneuver - to change how you see things.

So - ABANDON LOGIC just for 2 minutes while you read this thread - and see what can be gleaned for your HAPPINESS. Whats a good reason not to place too much emphasis on others views of you? Because they are ARBITRARY. The QUAGARS disagree 100% with the THROUMOTS. So who has the 100% RIGHT view of the hero? NO-ONE. Thats the point I'm making! But even in our own countries, there are people who like us (our QUAGARS). We just tend not to notice them when SA and depression has us in its grip.

Peoples views can never be based on 'the total reality of you' because to know this would be to talk to you for several months - not to see you across a street or know you at work.

PLEASE GO BACK and with this in mind, try to see what you can get out of it. If you must, replace 'Western' and 'Japan' with PLANET QUAGAR and PLANET THROUMOT. Hopefully then the racial connotations won;t be so obvious ...

Damn, you guys wear me out

Ross

OK I EDITED THE CARTOON

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 06:44 AM
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AIM: adamhoef

He ran because it grounded him in basics. There was both life and death in it; it was unadulterated by media hype, trivial cares, political meddling...It was all joy and woe, hard as a diamond; it made him weary beyond comprehension. But it also made him free.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 06:48 AM
 
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Re: The way others view us


Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAboutToEXPLODE
I don't get it, why would they like him in Japan?

Quote:
Interesting, I think SA is more or less unknown in Japan due to their collectivist culture. I read something in a newspaper a while ago as well explaining SA as a disease of 'liberal culture' and it kind of made sense. I think personally we are shaped to a large extent by the culture we grow up in.
People in the west romanticize the east to much, "shame" of being different from the norm is bigger there than in the west, and it is very important to save face and not to be an embarrasment for your family.
Ok, I made mistakes in my last post, like people in east Asian countries really aren't that happy overall, it's also true that I didn't see much in the way of family life in Japan, and I realise you're probably right about the conformity over there. Still, personally I prefer collectivist cultures (such as most European countries) over individualist, highly capitalist ones, which breed the crazy celebrity/consumerism culture which we have over here.

I live in a rich, middle/upper class area in a cut-off rural town. People are generally unfriendly to strangers and keep themselves to themselves here. I believe this kind of environment helps keep SA going.

I don't express myself very well on forums, hopefully you get what I'm trying to say anyway. Sorry about hijacking the thread it just reminded me of my Japanese experience lol
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 06:51 AM Thread Starter
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Heh. This thread gets moved to "Society and Culture" in 3..2...1 ...

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 07:33 AM
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Yeah, would've been better without the metaphor. My question - what if there aren't any people who like you? Count yourself a minority and move on from this thread? I feel like I do that a lot here.

I am the son and the heir of a shyness that is criminally vulgar. I am the son and heir of nothing in particular.

You shut your mouth. How can you say I go about things the wrong way? I am human and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 07:45 AM Thread Starter
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Well, i think you know what I will say - that it takes some internal changes to be able to see the external in a different way. Its all there, but whats inside colours and changes how we recieve it, and eventually what it is. In time, our attitiude makes it real. Full circle - now we have the evidence to prove we are terrible. But if you look deep enough, actually we manufactured it.

So I always say, find something to start you on that road. However small, however pointless. Whatever little bit of light you can find in the world, find something to use as a crowbar and start to pry it open little by little.

This is a game of tiny tiny steps, sometimes so small you can't see anything happening. But later when we look back, sometimes we don;t recognise where we came from.

But thats just what I would say.

PS I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT THE SWEAROMATIC BLANKED OUT THE WORD C H I N K. As in "c h i n k of light". "That is Silleh" as Monty Python once said

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 07:54 AM
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Re: The way others view us


Like putting a gun to someone's head and saying "please love me"?

I am the son and the heir of a shyness that is criminally vulgar. I am the son and heir of nothing in particular.

You shut your mouth. How can you say I go about things the wrong way? I am human and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does.
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
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If you can see light in one person, you now know what it looks like. It might be buried in the bushes but once you have the pattern, its easier to spot. Look for it. You dont have to act on it - just look for it in ANY tiny way. Start with the world around you - ignore people for a moment. Trees. Plants. Snow. The grass. The sounds around you. Seeing two little kids trip over and giggle. Watching birds make weird patterns in flocks in the sky. Dumb stuff like little characters in adverts. Why is there a water fountain on that particular street? Someone put it there because they thought other people might need water. That is compassion. In the UK, this is written into law - pubs cannot charge for tap water. There is light EVERYWHERE. Maybe stop looking to others to supply it for a time. Find something that is meaningful to you. Pursue it. I don;t know, a hobby. Art. Music. Sailing. Who the hell is LostInReverie anyway? Does SHE know? If she doesn't, find out.

If there's nothing inside its never going to come from others. You must fill it up yourself. Once that is started, go back to the little c h i n k of light peeking through the darkness. Suspend your conviction for just one week that you are the very spawn of beelzebub and pretend that you are a regular girl. Watch other people with this thought in mind. FORCE yourself to look for the good in them - no matter how false it feels. Write it down. Write down the good you see, write down the good you do and experience. Keep it on the same page. That right there is evidence that takes a little bite out of that "everything is black" conviction. Keep taking more bites. Sometimes you will fail, sometimes you will make little steps forward. You can do it at whatever pace suits you - you dont have to be a zealot. But just start, in some way, no matter how false, fake, stupid, pointless, tree-hugging, pathetic, weak it seems or how little you think you deserve it.

Whoever convinced you that you are nothing, that you are bad or evil - whatever wrongs they brought on to you and however much of that bile you internalised - they were wrong. It was their fault, their choice, their wrongdoing. Not yours. You didnt MAKE it happen to you - they chose to because at the time they wrongly convinced themselves it was a good thing to do. For that, THEY will be judged - but you do not have to carry their penance on your shoulders for the rest of time.

I know I write all this and you can't believe me or you think its BS or whatever, but I hope that you will just give it some room in your mind, even for a short time.

Ross

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 08:28 AM
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Re: The way others view us


I'm just not sure how changing my internal issues is going to help when it's the external that keeps people at a distance.

I am the son and the heir of a shyness that is criminally vulgar. I am the son and heir of nothing in particular.

You shut your mouth. How can you say I go about things the wrong way? I am human and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 02-07-2008, 08:42 AM Thread Starter
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And thats fair enough - you are entitled to believe that because every experience up to this point has taught and reinforced that. Up there somewhere i mentioned how some of that proof can be manufactured, and I would ask you to take me at my word on that - just suspend disbelief for a time. You are free to go back to whatever you believed before, and to keep following the same path you've been on. I'm not here to make you, or anyone do what I tell them to. But, if you accept for now that SOME of it is manufactured, then its possible that that percentage of BS covers up something good.

Now you keep talking about external issues. Is there something else? Are you disabled? Are you disfigured in some way? I cant know that, and if you are then that is something else that makes it harder. But I am presuming that you are and able bodied girl who siplmy believes she is utterly ugly, that ONLY looks and other's desire for you can make you happy and valued, and that due to placing such awesome weight behind this belief, you are convinced there is truly nothing to offer the world and it rejects you. It sees you as evil, black, defiled. The only way you could be happy is, by living by the worlds rules, and you could fit the cultural model of beauty, and at last you will become a valuable commodity and feel happy.

The problem is this. Even if you were to become whatever image of beauty you feel is right, you will STILL not be happy. The pain and inner emptiness will still be there because these values are empty. Those who do not have these attributes look at others that do and say "if only I could be like them". Those same people look at still others and say "if only I could be like them". This goes on and on.

That is because it is the internal which is most important. I'm going to stop replying now because i want you to just try out a few of the things I suggested and mull over all the things we have shared, but I can't make you. I can't convince you to change your thinking through argument alone. Just like me - I could not be convninced. I fought and argued. It was only when I went out and experienced what they were saying, actually tried those different attitudes on, that I saw it.

On to concentrate on bright things Stuck around in hopes to help, didnt seem like there was much left I could do anymore ... good luck and comfort to those who are on their own path and hope for those yet to take their first step! Much Love
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