Must Watch: Six part video on Social Anxiety Disorder - Page 5 - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #81 of 218 (permalink) Old 11-24-2011, 09:51 PM
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LifeTimer,

If you found a better, quicker way to overcome SA, thats great. I spent a few minutes looking at a couple sites about toxic shame. I dont know. To me its obvious why I have this disorder. In one of your posts you mention that recovery from toxic shame requires that you 'correct your thinking' through study and repetition. Isnt that cbt?...changing unrealistic negative thoughts into more positive realistic ones. And the last step to toxic shame recovery sounds like exposure therapy. I definately appreciate your enthusiasm. Its obvious you have put a lot of research into this. When I have some more time I will look into it some more.

Chris
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post #82 of 218 (permalink) Old 11-26-2011, 04:20 PM
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Thanks for posting this.
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post #83 of 218 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 06:28 AM
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I've only watched parts 1 and 2 so far. Watching the little girl struggle in school and feeling her pain and remembering mine at that age
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post #84 of 218 (permalink) Old 11-29-2011, 06:42 PM
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Chris, I'm sorry for my late reply, but I've been having computer issues for the last several days. Anyway, below is my reply.

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Originally Posted by ChrisA View Post
LifeTimer,

If you found a better, quicker way to overcome SA, thats great. I spent a few minutes looking at a couple sites about toxic shame. I dont know. To me its obvious why I have this disorder. In one of your posts you mention that recovery from toxic shame requires that you 'correct your thinking' through study and repetition. Isnt that cbt?...changing unrealistic negative thoughts into more positive realistic ones.
You may have to read the book(s) by John Bradshaw to fully understand all the ways toxic shame works and the various ways it can affect a person. Or, at the very least, read my thread for a decent understanding of TS (but obviously I can't cover everything in one thread that a book can).

You are correct when you alluded to cbt being about changing unrealistic negative thoughts into more positive realistic ones. In my opinion, doing that is not the best way to go about it. As a member here named "Rainwilds" once posted in regards to cbt:

It is no good just to sit there in a conversation and say ‘wait hold on a minute, I just need to defeat this negative thought’, or, ‘I just need to think a different thought.’ Your thoughts must come and go naturally, unperturbed through acceptance without you having to challenge (fight) yourself. Challenging your thoughts will only keep focused on yourself, inward, going round-and-round like in a hamster’s wheel. Your thoughts need to flow naturally.

Thus, when I said we need to "correct our thinking", I wasn't necessarily talking about changing negative thoughts into postive thoughts (of which is the thing cbt tries to do). Instead, I was talking about changing the way we view ourselves and others; to have the deep down realization that, intrinsically, nobody is better or worse than anyone else. Nobody is intrinisically different than anyone else. Whether it is a movie star, a president, or a homeless person living on the streets... we are all equally human, and nobody is better or more deserving than another. And, one has to understand that he/she is not a "bad" or worthless or defective person.

Another problem with cbt is that it focuses on the symptoms, rather than the actual core issue that caused one's SA in the first place. Because, how can you change your behavior if you don't know what is causing it? It is like cutting off diseased leaves off a plant without attacking the disease at its roots.
For a person to begin to heal their toxic shame (and its symptom of SA) you need to know how and why you are shameful. This is the key! Why? Because in knowing where shame was projected onto you in your past, whether it was projected knowingly or not, is what will lead you towards acceptance of who you are now, warts-and-all. This will help lead you to the autonomous belief that you, at your core, are not defective and inferior. And of course by adding in the help of those such as John Bradshaw and Dr. Glover, you can heal your toxic shame and SA.


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And the last step to toxic shame recovery sounds like exposure therapy. I definately appreciate your enthusiasm. Its obvious you have put a lot of research into this.
Yes, my last step - that I talk about in my main thread - does sound a bit like exposure therapy. However, what I talk about in my thread is to first do a lot of 'inner work' instead of just jumping in and doing "exposure" type stuff ("exposure stuff" meaning that of socializing and interacting with others). When one corrects his or her thinking - in that nobody is better than anyone else, etc. - then it will be easier to go out and interact with others. It will obviously be a gradual process and this is why I say a person needs to interact with others a little at a time (but remember to do this after you've do your inner work that I talked about earlier in this post). This interacting you do with other people is what will help you gain what Bradshaw calls "the mirroring eyes" of others. You will see through their mirroring eyes that you are a good and worthy person ... just as anyone else is. Obviously you cannot expect to get the right mirroring eyes from those that brought shame upon you. The mirroring eyes need to come from non-shaming people.

As I said before, it is not impossible for anyone to gain benefit from cbt or any other therapy. Every therapy manages to benefit a certain number of people. I'm just saying I believe that the way John Bradshaw and similar experts advocate is the best and most natural way to heal one's toxic shame (and it's accompanying symptoms such as SA). I've done it and I know others can too.


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"Shyness can be a serious problem when it is rooted in toxic shame." - John Bradshaw, toxic shame expert

Visit this thread link to find out the cause of SA for most of us and what to do about it: http://bit.ly/UeWprg
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post #85 of 218 (permalink) Old 11-30-2011, 12:00 PM
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In my above post I talked about the differences between cbt therapy vs healing one's toxic shame (and thus curing one's SA). However, I somehow forgot to include one of the important differences. As I previously said, cbt is more about trying to squash negative thoughts and turn them into positive thoughts. It (cbt) also tends to focus on the symptoms rather than the actual core problem. But when you heal your toxic shame, your thoughts flow more naturally and it doesn't involve efforts to stop down to squash a negative thought. Also, healing your TS is about getting to the actual root of the problem instead of focusing on the symptoms (cbt tends focus on the symptoms). But one big difference that I forgot to include in my previous post is the aspect of "hiding". Social Anxiety is largely about hiding. The below paragraph - in italics - is an excerpt from a post I've made on my main thread about the aspect of fear & hiding:

(A person with toxic shame & SA)... hides their emotions ... their thoughts ... their feelings ... they try to hide their humanity – in which they try to hide that they are sexual, that they have emotions, that they have bodily functions, that they are imperfect beings. They hide their perceived imperfections because they fear their "flaws" (and thus their perceived unworthiness as a person) will be exposed. And, so, those with this crippling condition tend to live in secretiveness. So, yes, people with SA live with fear. Again, it is our toxic shame that causes us to hide and live in fear. When we hide from something, it is because we have fear. And obviously with all the hiding that we (SA'ers) do, it is just a natural reaction that we end up living in fear. And this is what leads to our SA - which, in reality, SA is really just a symptom (though a big symptom) and toxic shame is the actual problem.

Experts on toxic shame make clear the importance of understanding how one came to acquire the condition that they have ... of how and why they (the individual) got the condition and where it came from. And what experts such as John Bradshaw, Alice Miller, etc, also make clear is that toxic shame causes a person to go into hiding, as I talked about in the above paragraph. They talk about how we need to know that we are in hiding and of course the importance of coming out hiding. All of these things are things that cbt does not specifically address.

Now, I do recognize that cbt does include doing action things such as practicing interacting with others in some manner, and that, in theory, this can be thought of by some as an action of "coming out of hiding". However, the difference is, since cbt doesn't work on the core issue of a person - or in many cases, doesn't even know what the core issue is in that person - it is difficult for the person to realize that a big problem they have is that they are in hiding (and also they don't know specifically why they are in hiding). This is why many people are not helped by just going out and taking a lot of action (and/or by simply trying to squash negative thoughts) without understanding what their true problem is and that they need to stop hiding & come out to let others see them for who they truly are - a perfectly imperfect person, just like anyone else is. Healing one's toxic shame cures the problem at its core, and allows the individual's thinking to flow freely & naturally... in regards to the way the individual sees himself/herself and in how he/she views others as well.

I know this has been another long post that I've made, but I cannot explain everything in the proper way by writing just a few sentences. Anyway, I just wanted to point out the importance of coming out of hiding by working to heal one's toxic shame (which will lead to curing one's SA for those with TS). I hope I've explained it well enough.


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"Shyness can be a serious problem when it is rooted in toxic shame." - John Bradshaw, toxic shame expert

Visit this thread link to find out the cause of SA for most of us and what to do about it: http://bit.ly/UeWprg
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post #86 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-01-2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
However, the difference is, since cbt doesn't work on the core issue of a person - or in many cases, doesn't even know what the core issue is in that person - it is difficult for the person to realize that a big problem they have is that they are in hiding (and also they don't know specifically why they are in hiding). This is why many people are not helped by just going out and taking a lot of action (and/or by simply trying to squash negative thoughts), without understanding what their true problem is and that they need to stop hiding & come out to let others see them for who they truly are - a perfectly imperfect person, just like anyone else is. Healing one's toxic shame cures the problem at its core, and allows the individual's thinking to flow freely & naturally, in regards to the way the individual sees himself/herself and in how he/she views others as well.
Person with SA: "I feel I can't make mistakes, that others won't forgive me for them, even if I acknowledge I was wrong. Why do I feel this? Did I learn it from my parents, or friends, or bullies? Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but it's not like I'm telling myself that I can't screw up because I'll disappoint my parents."

Not consciously. Our unconscious negative beliefs have a strangle hold on us. It's the feeling we all know. Somewhere along thing line, whether we were mostly influenced, or just mistaken, we started telling ourselves that we can't afford to make mistakes. No one made us stand at a chalk board and write 100 times over, "I can't afford to make mistakes because others won't forgive me." No, we don't remember that well when we started to learn this belief. But we did and that's where our SA started, and continued because we didn't face the belief, instead believing it so deeply that it became a feeling.

See: people pleasers, perfectionists, controlling parents, bullying, toxic shame
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post #87 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 05:40 PM
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I've only watched parts 1 and 2 so far. Watching the little girl struggle in school and feeling her pain and remembering mine at that age
Indeed. But what's most inspiring is that the same child starts to talk in class after taking medication, she starts exploring stuff and learning new things.

If I had any doubt about actual progress of people using the treatment - this little girl erased it. Both adults and children can lie to others, but to lie to yourself - that's more of an adult trait.
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post #88 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-05-2011, 09:54 PM
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Wow--thanks for posting this!! I'm not sure my family understands what I feel sometimes--this will help!
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post #89 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-06-2011, 08:35 AM
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Indeed. But what's most inspiring is that the same child starts to talk in class after taking medication, she starts exploring stuff and learning new things.

If I had any doubt about actual progress of people using the treatment - this little girl erased it. Both adults and children can lie to others, but to lie to yourself - that's more of an adult trait.
Agreed. When i finally got around to watching the rest of the series i was astounded by the turnaround.
My treatment (in the late 70s) consisted of the child therapist telling my parents to get me out out more. No meds, no training. It was nice getting to go swimming, skating, etc....but it changed nothing.
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post #90 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-10-2011, 06:48 PM
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Good doco but full of all the usual cliches on what to do about it, cliches that haven't helped me

Bad luck for the young poet would be a rich father, an early marriage, an early success or the ability to do anything well - Charles Bukowski
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post #91 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-11-2011, 02:00 AM
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I shed some tears during a part of this. It made me feel sad for some reason, probably because I could totally relate to their feelings, especially the speaking lady.

Last edited by CityLights89; 12-11-2011 at 02:02 AM. Reason: spelling
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post #92 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-12-2011, 11:43 AM
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I apologize if that was posted earlier, but here you can see this great documentary without splits and in better quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmEJEfy5f50&hd=1

Cheers!
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post #93 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-13-2011, 11:23 PM
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I liked the documentary, I think it would be a great tool in explaining SA to friends/family who don't understand.

It also makes me feel lucky that I grew up in a time where the disease was recognised and I was able to get a diganosis quickly.
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post #94 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-14-2011, 06:52 PM
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The chemical overreaction to novelty element was very interesting to me. I can now see that SA might be hereditary for me whereas before I couldn't see it in either of my parents...but my Mum definitely likes to stay in her comfort zone.

Turning to poison while the bee-mouth sips...
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post #95 of 218 (permalink) Old 12-17-2011, 10:56 PM
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Amazing post man. Life-changing stuff!

I am a believer the the Twelve-step Program.
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post #96 of 218 (permalink) Old 01-09-2012, 05:40 AM
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Thanks for posting the video, might be some interesting stuff in there % could really help out
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post #97 of 218 (permalink) Old 01-10-2012, 09:19 PM
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tnx for sharing
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post #98 of 218 (permalink) Old 01-10-2012, 10:19 PM
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I was planning to watch this for a while, and for some reason didn't. Now I am, and I just started. For some reason I can't help but have tears starting in my eyes, and it hasn't even gotten past the basics :/

“People don’t really want to know anything about you. They just want to put you into their little preordained slots. They decide what you are in the first two seconds, and they only get nervous or upset if you don’t live up to their snap judgements. That’s the only way the normal world’s like the Real – it all depends on who people think you are. Figure that out, play to what they expect, and it’s clear sailing.”
― Lilith Saintcrow
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post #99 of 218 (permalink) Old 01-14-2012, 12:26 PM
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What I've been learning is that people with SA have an involuntary response to being out in public or around people where they basically go into a "flight or fight" response and are extremely uncomfortable and nervous.

The beginning of the video described me exactly: "the quiet kid in class", "the coworker that never talks in meetings". Although this is me exactly, it's not because I am anxious or yet even that shy. It's because I seem to have trouble knowing what kinds of questions to ask or even knowing what to say. And this typically always seems to be the case with me. If I go to a social gathering, I'm always quiet because I am just literally lost for words and cannot think of a darn thing to say. Nor can I think quickly enough most of the time.

So this leads me to developing shy behavior such as lack of eye contact. Some people think that a person is quiet and doesn't talk a lot because they are shy, but in reality for people like me, I am shy because I am not good at being a socially interactive person. However, if I am given something to read from or I know exactly what it is I am going to say and am very knowledgable about what I am going to say, then I only have mild anxiety about getting up in front of a group of 20 or more people and talking and have no problem doing it.

I am a terribly shy person, but my shyness is the result of not being good at socially interacting, rather than not being good at socially interacting because I'm shy. People don't realize this other dimension exist. I just have a slow brain when it comes to thinking of creative questions and things to say in social settings, so I end up always just sitting and listening and not saying anything. At that point, I'm perfectly aware that I'm making others in the room uncomfortable or they are noticing my quietness, which in turn then triggers my mild anxiety or shyness.
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post #100 of 218 (permalink) Old 02-04-2012, 07:15 PM
a disease of the mind
 
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ive seen this
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