If you gave in..... - Page 2 - Social Anxiety Forum
View Poll Results: Would it?
Yes 7 31.82%
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Complicated 9 40.91%
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 01:30 AM
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Depends on what we are talking about here, but accepting certain societal norms would probably result in a disaster.

Looking from a less grim angle, I am working on accepting that sometimes being practical and acting in the interests of self-preservation is ok, and that will probably be helpful (or result in a disaster!).

A big part of my identity is tied in with not accepting things.

Leonard Cohen (Bird on a Wire): I have tried in my own way to be free
Mrs Hudson (BBC Sherlock): Sherlock! The mess you've made!
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillYouStopDave View Post
So, a person (often) eventually comes to a self-imposed impasse that must be resolved in some fashion. And generally, the only way out of it is whatever that person has been avoiding through their own "code".
I think this all boils down to our ability to predict the pain associated with an outcome. If we predict that doing X will lead to increased pain, we avoid doing X. This is why people get trapped in SA. You can tell people that acting in spite of their SA will lead to a reduction of pain overall, but they don't actually believe it. They believe that being independent, being gainfully employed, being in a relationship, having a social network are all good things in the abstract, and that those kinds of things can help a person avoid disaster down the road (being eaten by cats), but when they add up all those benefits and compare them to the amount of pain they expect to experience while forcing themselves through those tens of thousands of social interactions they (largely unconsciously) say "Nope," and just don't change. Nobody goes through 10,000 (estimated) units of pain for 1,000 (estimated) units of pleasure.

This is actually rational behavior. It makes perfect sense to avoid behaviors (eg. social interactions) that will increase your pain more than they will reduce your pain. What can be questioned, and challenged through therapy, is the accuracy of your predictions. Will it actually be as painful to socialize as you think it is? It's not so much that many people with disorders are irrational but that they're bad predictors. And I think it's the bad predictors who overestimate how painful an experience will be who are the ones who can be "cured" with therapy (which is the great hope of CBT, ACT, etc.). If you happen to avoid social interactions because they are as painful as you think they are, though, your prognosis is not good. This ties back to what you were saying before about willpower. You run out of steam because the costs > benefits. If the benefits > costs, you would not need willpower, because the actions would lead directly to an increase in pleasure/reduction in pain and you would have to stop yourself from acting on them (just like people currently have to stop themselves from overeating or watching too much TV or whatever it is a person has trouble with). (Ftr, I don't believe in willpower.)

To bring this back to the topic of the thread, I believe that "acceptance" happens when your predictions change: when you suddenly predict it will be less painful to give up some cherished goal than keep it. I don't think this is something that anyone can do voluntarily; I think it's something that happens when you bang your head against the wall a certain number of times, or when you paint yourself into a corner (the "self-imposed impasse"). The more important the goal, the more pain you have to experience before you give it up. (Which is why it's generally easy to accept things that make little difference to you, and very difficult to accept things that are very important to you.)

I love Society. It is entirely composed now of beautiful idiots and brilliant lunatics. Just what Society should be.
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 05:09 AM
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Idk if I understood the question properly but Ill try to tell. For me - no. Ive accepted many things, some sooner some later, but it didnt help me too much. Im the same passive idiot who does nothing to improve or reach goals/wishes of his own. Im just sitting waiting here for a mirracle that will never happen. And now this all corona c**p got into my help, cuz now I can justify myself to myself XD
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 08:58 AM
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I dunno if I really understand the thread but my life is an unsustainable compromise.

Some people heard my words and thought it meant they knew me
Truth is, I don't exist, I'm just a soundtrack to your movie
Some background figure in a story that's already scripted
And what I feel's just felt for you to hear me ****ing spit it
I jump in many different heads through these words and poems
Always hoping maybe the next leap'll be my leap home

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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillYouStopDave View Post
A person would obviously not want to do something they don't want to do. But said person might consider doing it anyway if they thought that it was the only feasible path forward.

IOW, a person might compromise if they come to the conclusion that they have just been being stubborn for it's own sake and it has cost them far more than it was ever worth and they realize it was a foolish waste and they just didn't want to admit it.

To say a person has been (past tense) refusing to accept does not mean they cannot choose to accept in the future. Which was the reason for the question. And also the reason for the "IF". So, a question that says "Will you enjoy your day more tomorrow if the weather is better?" means the weather might change tomorrow. And IF it does, will that change your state of mind? There is nothing in there that says the weather has to be the same tomorrow as it was yesterday just because it was what it was yesterday.

So, a person (often) eventually comes to a self-imposed impasse that must be resolved in some fashion. And generally, the only way out of it is whatever that person has been avoiding through their own "code".
Thanks for your explanation
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 12:59 PM
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I accepted that im shy and anxious and depressed and that ill have to live life this way because i refuse meds or therapy. But i can manage okay. The hardest part is rebuilding the life I broke down all these years ago by substance abuse and not holding jobs properly.

It's hard to get back on that track, or it's just that Ive had no luck yet with it.

The past was erased,
the erasure was forgotten,
the lie became the truth

George Orwell-1984
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:28 PM
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Yes, but I think, it was more "making my peace" with things and accepting!
This alone didn't change things, but the change in mindset was very, very useful!

"Giving in" kind of suggests having lost a war and that there are no alternatives left! Therefore leaving you in a negative, resignation mindset! Not good for brain and soul!
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 03:06 AM
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welcome back Bob!
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
I dunno if I really understand the thread but my life is an unsustainable compromise.
I accept that I'll never be accepted by society (not because of SA although people don't understand or accept that either,) but I'm going to avoid having to perform for others or be around people who see me as an enemy at worst or a nuisance at best. The only way to do that is to avoid people as much as possible. That's what aliens in a hostile territory have to do.

I've been told to kill myself before in a literal sense (who hasn't online lol?) But being told that made me want to even less. Contrarian. Likewise being told to metaphorically kill myself makes me want to even less. What are they giving me in return lol? Nothing.

Some people heard my words and thought it meant they knew me
Truth is, I don't exist, I'm just a soundtrack to your movie
Some background figure in a story that's already scripted
And what I feel's just felt for you to hear me ****ing spit it
I jump in many different heads through these words and poems
Always hoping maybe the next leap'll be my leap home

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 02:37 PM
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Do you consider the others your enemy or a nuisance as well?
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post #31 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Persephone The Dread View Post
I've been told to kill myself before in a literal sense (who hasn't online lol?) But being told that made me want to even less. Contrarian.
I don't remember ever being told that, though I probably was, doesn't bother me anyway, I've created better hells inside my own head than what anyone online can ever do to me with words ...... I think people only do that if they think they have power over you.






And all our yesterdays have lighted fools the way to dusty death
Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow,
A poor player that strut's and fret's his hour upon the stage and is heard no more,
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
- Macbeth
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post #32 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 03:29 PM
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I don't remember ever being told that, though I probably was, doesn't bother me anyway, I've created better hells inside my own head than what anyone online can ever do to me with words ...... I think people only do that if they think they have power over you.
I think their problem was they felt they had no power actually. This specific individual anyway. They didn't like my opinions and felt like I'd betrayed women. But there are a few different reasons people do that online.

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Do you consider the others your enemy or a nuisance as well?
I can't answer this question easily without going into more detail than I want to about the previous post I made.

To the extent that they want me to disappear, or place me in a dynamic where I'm their enemy I suppose I do (but the latter doesn't tend to annoy me in itself. It would be a problem if I was trying harder to fit in and is for others but otherwise can be entertaining.) I would say my feelings are variable though. Mostly most people are just an outgroup even members of supposed ingroups.

edit: anyway I didn't see that this thread was posted in the coping with SA section before so this is just off topic since it doesn't concern social anxiety.

Some people heard my words and thought it meant they knew me
Truth is, I don't exist, I'm just a soundtrack to your movie
Some background figure in a story that's already scripted
And what I feel's just felt for you to hear me ****ing spit it
I jump in many different heads through these words and poems
Always hoping maybe the next leap'll be my leap home

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post #33 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 03:42 PM
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Complicated. I've already accepted things that I had either been in denial of or never fully acknowledged. Some I don't think matter so much since it wouldn't make a huge difference in how things would turn out.
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post #34 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 04:29 PM
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What exactly is it we're accepting? That we're different? That we have trouble fitting into "society" or that we might occasionally be treated differently because of our shortcomings socially?

The world is a very big place and there are many ways you can live in it. We can all obviously just choose to "accept" that it's frightening and there are indeed scary things and people out there - we can all just sit inside our apartments and never go out again - but who does that hurt in the end?

Eventually we all have to grow up. No-one is coming to save us. No-one is coming to knock on our door and hold our hand while we go outside. We have to do that ourselves. (well, we obviously don't have to - we could all just sit around and complain some more on SAS with each other and cry about how terrible life and everybody else is.)

As for the actual question - I realised I was different about 40 years ago. I could sense there were going to be very big problems. From what I've read on here sometimes I think I got off fairly lightly in some ways. (girlfriends, friends etc.) But not with everything. I have days now where I feel so terrible that there's no choice but to accept my condition - and I spend much of the day lying on my bed waiting and hoping that it will stop. It's a bit hard not to "accept" those times.
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post #35 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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What exactly is it we're accepting? That we're different? That we have trouble fitting into "society" or that we might occasionally be treated differently because of our shortcomings socially?
It's something of an open-ended question. What "it" is can be anything depending on the individual.

/WYSD
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post #36 of 36 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 05:26 PM
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It's something of an open-ended question. What "it" is can be anything depending on the individual.
No problem, yes I see you've worded it in a very general way.

I had a lot of trouble accepting my bipolar diagnosis when they gave it to me. My wife didn't. Funny about that.

Nowadays I accept it. It would be stupid not to - it's all too obvious. But as with everything else I try to live the best I can within those restrictions. I try to make the most of my "good" days.
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