Religion =/= morality - Social Anxiety Forum
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-21-2019, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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Religious power =/= morality


I'm not trying to generalize here but I think people place too much 'faith' in rich and powerful organizations to do the right thing. That simple fact alone should tell you something is awfully wrong. I don't care if you're protestant, LDS, muslim or scientologist. All these organizations are filled with those who are NOT good people. With the radicals they basically bully people and tell them what to do in their personal lives, or flat out go after the wrong people purely for symbolic ruthlessness. They have waaaay more power and less accountability than, say, a democratically elected government than any sane person would consider good for society. And it's literally built on the notion of proselytizing and imposing archaic rules on people who do not even follow their views. I admit my personal bias comes from an older form of christianity that long ago decided to stay away from politics and violent methods of spreading its teachings but that doesn't mean my point isn't valid: large masses of gullible people trusting organizations with lots of tax-free money and power that can be used to rule over others is NOT a good thing!

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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 12:19 AM
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You're right in that you have to careful in who you trust and that not all people who call themselves Christians are nice/good people. Some are genuine but struggling, we're all struggling in some way, and others can be not genuine.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 01:47 AM
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Power corrupts -- and contrary to popular opinion, at least among the believers, religious "authorities" are not exempt from this basic principle. While I'm sure that some religious groups must do some good in the world, I'd wager that a large majority of religious leaders are thoroughly corrupt and selfish, only doing the bare minimum to maintain the appearance of "charity" while they get rich. It's one of the big reasons why I'd never support any religion ever again.

I was born into Mormonism, which I see as a prime example of the corruption, greed and power-mongering rife in religions today. It's perfectly illustrated by the most recent scandal where a $100 BILLION fund, taken primarily from faithful members' tithing, was exposed. Supposedly they're saving the money "for the Second Coming," though why Jesus Christ would need $100 billion when he "returns" is beyond me. Yet the faithful continue to defend the church and its leaders, in spite of everything. Perfectly reasonable and level-headed people say that they don't care where their tithing goes, because they "have faith" that the church will use it "wisely." Even if that means that their money gathers dust in some untouchable fund for the next few centuries or millennia, however long it takes for that corrupt corporation to fall. Or even if it goes to fund multi-million-dollar malls like City Creek, or lavish "temples" with gold fixtures and thousand-dollar rugs. The Mormon church supposedly spends about $40 million annually on "charity" -- which, according to even the most careful estimates, is less than 1% of what it brings in in tithing each year.

Unfortunately most believers are blind to any kind of wrongdoing in their churches. It's a critical part of the indoctrination process -- make the people believe that their religious leaders are always "right" and they'll keep following (and paying) forever. Ostracize and demonize atheists and other freethinkers to ensure that believers are too scared to ever leave, while you're at it. And bingo, you've got free, tax-free income! From early childhood most people are brainwashed to equate morality with religion, and few people are capable of overcoming that level of conditioning. Religion is the biggest scam ever perpetrated, and yet people continue to fall for it.

"Churches ... appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.." -Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 02:20 AM
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Buddhism ≠ atheism
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 10:21 AM
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I'm not someone who knows a lot about Western culture, but something tells me most of moral stuff is adopted from religion even if people don't believe in God. Some bad things too like seeing everything in black and white way Then I'm not sure if that's from religion exactly, maybe it's just old beliefs mixed with the interpretation of religion in that old society. I can say the same for some people in my country too. Although that's only my biased perspective cause I had to deal with this first hand and cause I see things in a bit different way (not everything though). Maybe it's not a bad thing necessarily after all.

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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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@Tetragammon those are very valid and thought-provoking points! Coming from a different perspective it is definitely interesting to note!

@SorryForMyEnglish I think there are lessons and beliefs that have proven time tested. People act the exact same way as they did in biblical times but the problem is, at least in the US, nobody seems to understand what metaphors and allegories actually are. They just take it all literally and then change some of the most important points on a whim.

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 03:42 PM
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this is also the same for any hegemony or controlling institution.

there is only as much accountability as the members apply themselves. the problem isn't the people in power, its the people who don't hold them accountable. unfortunately people are idiots and if they held them accountable they would probably do it all wrong anyway. so the real problem is idiots. idiots as defined by me, ie people who disagree with me.

there will always be abuses of power and idiots and dissenters. its all subjective. this is just how things function. it is better to critique the specific content/consequences rather than the way it functions... what alternative are you going to advocate for? how are you going to educate all those idiots in your way of thinking? just consider that its a miracle that society hasn't collapsed. so what if it functions badly? it functions!

besides that, 1) every religion is entirely different! different structures of control. 2) religion has been a source of morality since forever. 3) democracy is so bad, it brings out the complete idiocy of all the idiots in full.

"I take what is mine. I pay the iron price."
―Balon Greyjoy
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 02:45 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by andy1984 View Post
this is also the same for any hegemony or controlling institution.

there is only as much accountability as the members apply themselves. the problem isn't the people in power, its the people who don't hold them accountable. unfortunately people are idiots and if they held them accountable they would probably do it all wrong anyway. so the real problem is idiots. idiots as defined by me, ie people who disagree with me.

there will always be abuses of power and idiots and dissenters. its all subjective. this is just how things function. it is better to critique the specific content/consequences rather than the way it functions... what alternative are you going to advocate for? how are you going to educate all those idiots in your way of thinking? just consider that its a miracle that society hasn't collapsed. so what if it functions badly? it functions!

besides that, 1) every religion is entirely different! different structures of control. 2) religion has been a source of morality since forever. 3) democracy is so bad, it brings out the complete idiocy of all the idiots in full.
I mean everything thing you're saying is true but I've already taken that into account as an inevitability. What Shocks me the most is that all these institutions (including the technological monopolies now in existence) are basically pretending to solve the very problems they're actively creating. I mean tell me how many things you can think of that we did fine before a technological middle man came along? Do we really need smart toasters logging every time we burp? Do we really need institutions stigmatizing and forcing people into worse situations? Solving problems is an existential threat. That's why you don't see government or religion actually SOLVING anything, they just use the premise as an excuse to make everyone agree to a long and pointless bureaucracy to be born so: a.) a bunch of bullies can harrass people or, b.) a bunch of people can go around rubber stamping things all day.

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asittingducky View Post
I mean everything thing you're saying is true but I've already taken that into account as an inevitability. What Shocks me the most is that all these institutions (including the technological monopolies now in existence) are basically pretending to solve the very problems they're actively creating. I mean tell me how many things you can think of that we did fine before a technological middle man came along? Do we really need smart toasters logging every time we burp? Do we really need institutions stigmatizing and forcing people into worse situations? Solving problems is an existential threat. That's why you don't see government or religion actually SOLVING anything, they just use the premise as an excuse to make everyone agree to a long and pointless bureaucracy to be born so: a.) a bunch of bullies can harrass people or, b.) a bunch of people can go around rubber stamping things all day.
idk if you get everything your way because of who you are or what you do and the idiots let you, at what stage are you going to stop wanting to get your way? never.

"I take what is mine. I pay the iron price."
―Balon Greyjoy
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asittingducky View Post
I mean everything thing you're saying is true but I've already taken that into account as an inevitability. What Shocks me the most is that all these institutions (including the technological monopolies now in existence) are basically pretending to solve the very problems they're actively creating. I mean tell me how many things you can think of that we did fine before a technological middle man came along? Do we really need smart toasters logging every time we burp? Do we really need institutions stigmatizing and forcing people into worse situations? Solving problems is an existential threat. That's why you don't see government or religion actually SOLVING anything, they just use the premise as an excuse to make everyone agree to a long and pointless bureaucracy to be born so: a.) a bunch of bullies can harrass people or, b.) a bunch of people can go around rubber stamping things all day.

"Religions" are many. But the true final religion has everything already solved until the end of time. Whether it is applied by humans is something else. Humans complicate simple matters. Study history. That is why even previous religions were changed by humans. People changed the books with their hands.


Your acknowledgement of technological monopolies making things worse is true. It all comes down to the simple lesson Allah first gave to prophet Adam (peace be upon him) ie don't go near the tree. Why? because harmful changes would happen. Human beings have a hard time applying that lesson. Change is of two types, good or bad. It depends on the context and the Wisdom of Allah. When things are left to the intellect alone, that's when problems start happening. Imbalances. Extremes. Oppression. Greed, Capitalism etc.



You say that religion doesn't solve anything. I say it confidently Islam has everything solved. Like I said above whether people apply and be grateful for it or even let it enter their hearts and be curious is another thing. We humans cause our own problems.


- What you see of Alcohol related cancers and birth defects wouldn't be existent in a true Islamic society
- The same for smoking
- The rise in sexually transmitted drug resistant super bugs (by the way secular government never pushes the obvious benefits of Islam and can't swallow their pride. They'll research new vaccination development instead of promoting the existing solution of not being sexually promiscuous)
- The oppression of the interest based banking system. Modern day enslavement making people sell their lives to pay off a debt
- Deceiving business practices where it is legal to sell "food" that is actually incredibly harmful to everyone and cause diseases like diabetes even in children


I could give many more examples yet you claim Islam doesn't solve anything when on the contrary it forbids all of the above?



Amazingly, all of the above is also related to the very simple lesson of prophet Adam (peace be upon him) through the general principle of Prevention. Which goes into every layer of those fields of life. Food, Sex, Business, Housing, Goods and services. What I mentioned above are outcomes and consequences of harm after a choice has been made. Or doing things in an extreme, unhealthy or misguided way and so essentially the wrong choice. Yet if those choices were Prevented there would be freedom. Freedom from disease, freedom from enslavement, harm etc.



Yet you say religion doesn't solve anything? It's people that don't choose freedom. They choose enslavement.


So it looks like the lesson of prophet Adam (peace be upon him) still applies to this day doesn't it?
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 03:19 PM
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There's no random thought thread in this section and I've never wanted to be the person who makes it. There is one in spiritual support but this post is too combative for there I imagine so just going to throw it into this thread since it's the most latest one here. I don't know I may make this a thread of it's own in a bit but I'm not sure I need a dialogue about it more just throwing this thought out there.

I'm not a Christian and haven't been since I was a child and was just sort of pushed into that by environment but the complete hypocrisy of modern Christians kind of bothers me it's something I've been thinking about lately because of Kanye, and then I coincidentally just watched this upload (sometimes watch his videos for political commentary,) and part of the video echoed some of my thoughts that there are atheists who are in many ways more Christian than many self proclaimed Christians are now.


Also an Armoured Skeptic video on abortion a while back. He's an athiest and is actually against abortion on a personal level, but still in favour of it being legalised and has actually pointed out that the bible isn't against abortion. Prior to that video I wasn't even aware of that lol I just kind of assumed Christians had read their own holy book lol, but there are many examples of it being promoted in the bible:

https://rewire.news/article/2012/06/...stians-view-1/

I think Jesus would be really confused by the Christian right tbh.

And I'm essentially a Luciferian, not exactly a Satanist but a big fan of Satan and related archetypes which makes it even more hilarious but then, I have a different take on Luciferian figures to the average Christian's.

Seriously though is it just me or are Christians being trolled?

Quote:
West made a number of outlandish claims in an earlier interview with Zane Lowe, including that he told people working in his studio not to have sex before marriage, and that his support for Trump was “God’s practical joke to all liberals”.
Of course at this point I think I know why it is. It's because liberals (at least most progressives,) are people with the same psychological traits that lead to things like Christianity (desire for equality,) probably most other spiritual beliefs too tbh certainly animism (animism fits even better than Christianity imo.) but who became atheists etc in recent years leaving Christianity mostly to social Darwinists who mostly use it to defend their bigotry (because the bible also contains bigotry and sexism as it's a product of the time it was written in.) This is kind of covered in this video. Though I'd argue that nationalists likely haven't abandoned egalitarianism for the nation as he suggests, that's why there was so much confusion about whether fascism was socialism. Also there are other issues with that video but I've mainly linked it to highlight the psychological thing.

I think part of the reason Christianity took off so well is there are parts that appeal to the oneness drive, but other parts that emphasise hierarchical structures which appeals to social Darwinist tendencies. These of course conflict and so separation was probably inevitable.

Also time for the song:


The wretched world we’re living in at present was not an unlucky war of fate; it was an economic and political decision made without consulting the enormous human population that it would most drastically affect. If we would have it otherwise, if we’d prefer a future that we can call home, then we must stop supporting — even passively — this ravenous, insatiable conservative agenda before it devours us with our kids as a dessert. - Alan Moore

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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idk if you get everything your way because of who you are or what you do and the idiots let you, at what stage are you going to stop wanting to get your way? never.
Hostile response aside, it has never occurred to you that is a result of NOT getting anything my way ever? At some point I simply started to see all the profiling and people getting off telling others how to live their personal lives as excessive. Maybe I'll feel differently in ANOTHER decade but I highly doubt it...
@Persephone The Dread , I don't think Christians are trolled so much as they've done it to themselves. Especially all these new businessmen types collecting money for megachurches and jets.

And for the record I grew up Christian...the old kind that didn't just decide to change rules EVERY time people felt like it. I like some of the rituals. That being said, in the end all of it revolves around cognition and, quite frankly, philosophy the arts and science address those mental needs far better in a modern society.

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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 05:24 AM
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Seems like a lot of these religious posers want the "rapture" to come and kill everyone except them "the chosen ones".


Talk about a bunch of crazy idiots hell-bent on destroying the world.


Wake up people and smell the insanity.


https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...paign=trending




And I always thought this would be
the land of milk and honey
Oh but I came to find out that it's
all hate and money
And there's a canopy of greed holding me down.
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