Question for christians about faith and fear/doubt

[norad]

In the bible the importance of having faith is always emphasized so much.
The bible says without faith you cannot please God. Jesus said that if you pray and don't doubt in your heart then you will get what you prayed for.
In James it also says that the double-minded man receives nothing from God.
Or when the man with the dying daughter came to Jesus he told the man not to fear and only to believe.

But what do you do if you struggle exactly with fear and doubts? Then all these advice in the bible do not help but only make the fear worse and the pressure, too. If I for example had been the man with the dying daughter and my daughter was dying then I would have been very afraid in this situation and if then Jesus had told me don't fear just believe then this would probably have made me become even more afraid because then I would have thought that if I cannot stop fearing then my daughter will die and this would have made me even more afraid.
You know what I'm saying?

What is the solution to this vicious circle? If you already struggle with fear and doubts and then you're told that you must not fear and that you must believe then this only makes it worse. I have asked various christians exactly this question and none of them even seemed to be able to understand it. They told me stuff like don't fear which doesn't help one freaking bit.

What if you want to believe but can't seem to and always struggle with fear and doubt?
Unfortunately normal christians who don't know fear and ocd cannot understand such issues at all. They'll only tell you stuff which makes it worse like you're not really saved or you don't really believe in your "heart". What does that mean anyway? How do you know you're believing in your "heart"? I do not have a display on my forehead which tells me wether I believe in my "heart" or not. Gosh, I'm so damn tired of this. Over the years I have listened to probably more than thousand sermons and teachings about faith and doubt and fear always trying to find the solution in there but I never found any. It's as if noone out there even understands those issues and that's why nobody talks about them. I have never heard a teaching about fear or doubts which really touched on the very questions which I have been struggling with for years and been unable to solve myself. With all other fears I could simply replace them or bypass them but with those religious fears it doesn't work.
The moment where you're told that it all depends on your faith and your ability to not doubt then all the pressure to perform is on you and this totally strengthens the fear. This would be like being a surgeon and you have to do a totally complicated surgery on a family member. Imagine how afraid and nervous you'd be in such a situation. And when you know that wether God answers an important prayer or wether God is able to help you or not depends on wether you have enough faith and are able to not fear then this creates an insane amount of pressure.
Then God's totally out of the equation. Then it's no longer faith in God but faith in faith. I think this is terrible and leaves those who struggle with doubts and fear in a desert of despair. But at the same time the bible says those things. Even Jesus himself said that you must not doubt in your heart.
Or when Jesus healed the woman with the issue of blood he told her YOUR faith made you well. This means that if the woman had not had this faith she also wouldn't have gotten healed. I think this is totally depressing.

I have struggled with doubts for so many years now and wished I could just believe like others and I can't. I'm so tired of this. I feel like such a disgrace because I don't overcome and what seems to work
for other christians doesn't work for me. When I'm depressed then
quoting scriptures or trying other things to psyche myself up only
makes me more depressed. I have talked on the phone with various
ministers and none of their advice helped me. They didn't even seem
to be able to understand my struggles at all. This makes me feel totally alone. One pastor told me to simply quote stuff like God hasn't given me a spirit of fear and I'd do that and quote it again and again while at the same time being afraid and I'd feel like a hypocrite and then when I gave up quoting he said that I don't do what he told me to do and gave up on me and told me that he can't help me. Or others told me stuff like I don't really want to believe or that I have strong faith in ocd and nonsense like that. I learned over
the years that seeking help with such problems from christians is totally futile and only
makes it worse cause they stuff they tell you doesn't help at all.

Other people simply have a much stronger faith than me. How else could they endure being tortured or imprisoned and still befaithful? My situation already makes me feel like God is totally distant. All my thoughts revolve around my problems. God and heaven
and such things are totally abstract to me. I can't even grasp them in my mind. I can't even tell if I still have faith or not. The bible says faith without works is dead. But I do no works of faith. A work of faith would be to not give in to fear and depression but
I don't know if I can do that. My circumstances totally dominate
me.

[Glacial]

It is possible to still have faith in spite of fear and doubt. The ambivalence of it all is very difficult though. I know it is not that simple, but sometimes you have to "do it afraid."

[norad]

Originally Posted by Saving Face

It is possible to still have faith in spite of fear and doubt. The ambivalence of it all is very difficult though. I know it is not that simple, but sometimes you have to "do it afraid."

I agree with what you say but the issue is that this only works with things you can DO. For example if I am afraid to go into the dark basement I can still do it even if I am afraid. I just go down there.
But how does this apply to prayer? Imagine I pray and know that when I pray I must be faithful and must not doubt then what do I do if I get all kinds of doubts and fears which directly neutralize my prayer? The second where I know that it all depends on my faith I automatically get all kind of fears and doubts like:

What if I just doubted and neutralized my prayer?
What if I didn't pray with enough faith?
What if worrying that I might have doubted already ruined my prayer?

I could go on with this list.

It simply is a vicious circle. I have not been able to find a solution for this in many years. I have thought about this problem so many times and it's totally dragging me down. How can it be that people who struggle with fear and doubts are punished for it and have smaller chances of getting answers to prayers? What if those people simply cannot meet the requirements for answered prayers?

I also cannot even tell how to know if I am "in faith". Ministers talk about this stuff and I am like WTF are they talking about?!
This is so upsetting. Stuff like when you believe you just know that you know that you know doesn't help me one bit. I don't know that I know that I know. Most of the time my mind is full of confusion and also my emotions do not show me wether I believe or not. Then how can I even tell that I have faith? If I feel confident or something like that then this shows me that I have faith. But if I'm anxious and my mind is confused then I have absolutely nothing to even show me wether I have faith or not.
But this is exactly the stuff which 99,99% of the christians out there cannot relate to at all. They do not have such issues and don't ask themselves how you know that you know.
For me these questions started very early. It didn't take long and all my thoughts revolved around faith and how I could tell if I really have it and so on.
And then there's also this stuff about real faith vs false faith or "head faith" vs "heart faith" all these distinctions confuse me even more. If you can have false faith or "head faith" which is worthless then how the heck shall I know if I have the "right" faith?
Even writing about this freaks me out cause I have suffered from this crap for years and years. I try not to even think about this because it just hurts. I have felt like getting a nervous breakdown so many times BECAUSE of faith issues. Actually faith should help you deal with life and not cause problems but for me being a christian has caused a lot of problems due to the whole faith stuff.

[justpassinby]

The fact that you keep trying so hard shows that you have some measure of faith. I experience this too. Here's a passage I remembered about that:

Matthew 17:20 "He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Here is a commentary about that passage that explains it better than I could:


As a grain of mustard-seed - See the notes at Matthew 13:31-32. The mustard-seed was the smallest of all seeds. It has been supposed by some, therefore, that he meant to say, If you have the smallest or feeblest faith that is genuine, you can do all things. The mustard-seed produced the largest of all herbs. It has been supposed by others, therefore, to mean, If you have increasing, expanding, enlarged faith, growing and strengthening from small beginnings, you can perform the most difficult undertaking. There is a principle of vitality in the grain of seed stretching forward to great results, which illustrates the nature of faith. Your faith should be like that. This is probably the true meaning. Ye shall say unto this mountain ... - Probably he pointed to a mountain near, to assure them that if they had such faith they might accomplish the most difficult undertakings - things that at first would appear impossible.

It seems you are genuinely seeking God and that is genuine faith. I sometimes don't feel it in my heart either, I think its common. It does not mean that God is not working in you with the result to be shown later, as a mustard seed grows to be larger than all the herbs.

[Glacial]

Originally Posted by norad

I agree with what you say but the issue is that this only works with things you can DO. For example if I am afraid to go into the dark basement I can still do it even if I am afraid. I just go down there.
But how does this apply to prayer? Imagine I pray and know that when I pray I must be faithful and must not doubt then what do I do if I get all kinds of doubts and fears which directly neutralize my prayer? The second where I know that it all depends on my faith I automatically get all kind of fears and doubts like:

What if I just doubted and neutralized my prayer?
What if I didn't pray with enough faith?
What if worrying that I might have doubted already ruined my prayer?

I could go on with this list.

It simply is a vicious circle. I have not been able to find a solution for this in many years. I have thought about this problem so many times and it's totally dragging me down. How can it be that people who struggle with fear and doubts are punished for it and have smaller chances of getting answers to prayers? What if those people simply cannot meet the requirements for answered prayers?

I also cannot even tell how to know if I am "in faith". Ministers talk about this stuff and I am like WTF are they talking about?!
This is so upsetting. Stuff like when you believe you just know that you know that you know doesn't help me one bit. I don't know that I know that I know. Most of the time my mind is full of confusion and also my emotions do not show me wether I believe or not. Then how can I even tell that I have faith? If I feel confident or something like that then this shows me that I have faith. But if I'm anxious and my mind is confused then I have absolutely nothing to even show me wether I have faith or not.
But this is exactly the stuff which 99,99% of the christians out there cannot relate to at all. They do not have such issues and don't ask themselves how you know that you know.
For me these questions started very early. It didn't take long and all my thoughts revolved around faith and how I could tell if I really have it and so on.
And then there's also this stuff about real faith vs false faith or "head faith" vs "heart faith" all these distinctions confuse me even more. If you can have false faith or "head faith" which is worthless then how the heck shall I know if I have the "right" faith?
Even writing about this freaks me out cause I have suffered from this crap for years and years. I try not to even think about this because it just hurts. I have felt like getting a nervous breakdown so many times BECAUSE of faith issues. Actually faith should help you deal with life and not cause problems but for me being a christian has caused a lot of problems due to the whole faith stuff.

I believe I have been where you are. I have come a long way. Do you think this may be more of an issue of OCD, rather than a spiritual one?

[norad]

@ saving face

ocd very likely plays a role, anxiety, too. But that doesn't really help me. I mean it doesn't change the requirements for answered prayers does it?
The thing which I find especially depressing is that the bible itself doesn't really offer comfort for people who struggle with doubts. When I read stuff like without faith you cannot please God or a double-minded man gets nothing from God or Jesus saying that you must not doubt in your heart then this offers no comfort it only increases the pressure.
I also read in a book about doubts that such passages which encourage normal christians cause christians who have fear to become even more afraid. Unfortunately the book didn't offer solutions.
I remember one time I emailed with a pastor about my problems and he told me stuff like that I must not doubt and I told him that when I am told something like this then it only makes my problems worse and that this is simple psychology and then he replied something like "Then Jesus didn't understand psychology" which really upset me.

@justpassinby

The mustard seed argument doesn't help me because even though it helps in the sense that it shows that size doesn't matter it doesn't help with the issue of doubts. Because if even the tiniest faith is enough as long as you don't doubt then this still means when you doubt you ruin it all. This means you still must not doubt.
Ministers usually talk about this and call it "pure faith" this means the size doesn't matter but it must be "pure". Faith mixed with doubts doesn't work and this means I'm back where I started. There simply is no relief. I have been trying to find a solution for this for years but there is none. The more faith is stressed the more anxious I become.

This way praying doesn't even make sense. Why should I even pray when I know that I don't have the necessary faith or when I know that even before I pray I already fear that it might not work then I don't even have to pray in the first place.

I don't know what you guys believe about prayer. Most christians have the stance that you can pray but wether God grants it is up to God and this means that there is also less pressure on your part.
But I don't think that this is biblical because Jesus also didn't pray like this. When Jesus asked for things he always prayed with confidence and knew that he would get it and this is also what Jesus himself taught. Jesus himself said that when you pray you must believe you receive and then you shall have it. He didn't say something like pray and then wait wether God says yes or no or later.
I think that God expects that we pray this way and expect that we get what we ask for because this is what faith is. Praying for something with the stance "Let's see if I get it" isn't really faith in my opinion. But what do I do if I simply can't pray the way Jesus said we should pray and believe that I receive? If getting an answer to prayer depends on my faith then this means that I can sabotage it all if I doubt and this means I also cannot be sure that my prayer will be answered. How can I be sure that it will be answered if I at the same time can ruin it all? THAT is the core of my problem and 99% of the christians won't even be able to grasp this cause they don't even think this way.

[fredbloggs02]

I don't think faith is about knowing you are in faith. I recommend Soren Kierkegaard's short work "Fear And Trembling". It discusses the story of Abraham and the paradox of faith steeped in doubt. I found it interesting, if not wholly reassuring.

Noone is part of some cruel experiment to be the first perfect Christian. No philosopher in history has EVER conclusively demonstrated "I think therefore I am" were anywhere near true, not even Descartes who made himself famous for it. Take the burden off your shoulders, you aren't responsible for your doubts.

[Knowbody]

I had fear and doubt about my christian faith.

In an attempt to strengthen my belief I studied many arguments in opposition of my faith relentlessly. I needed answers to prove that what I believed in was in fact true.


However after years of study I saw many flaws and holes in my belief system and it actually made me an atheist.


If you're having fear/doubt about your faith, chances are you're really not cut from that "religious" cloth to begin with. It takes a certain type of "dedicated" mind to fully accept these ideas as actually fact (especially after thoroughly reviewing the opposition) Either way you'll eventually find out.

[JGreenwood]

"it's funny how life turns out, the odds of faith in the face of doubt..."

[norad]

@ fredbloggs02

I don't know if reading philosophical stuff from Kierkegaard would help me with my complicated questions and problems. I needed answers directly for those problems and I don't think that I'd find them there.
How does it help me when I think that doubts aren't my fault? The bible still says that you must not doubt or that you can't please God without faith, so how does this help me?

@ Knowbody

I'm sorry that you lost your faith. Do you like being an atheist or feel better now than before or was it more like you simply couldn't believe anymore even though you wanted to?

[RonM]

Originally Posted by norad

I don't know if reading philosophical stuff from Kierkegaard would help me with my complicated questions and problems. I needed answers directly for those problems and I don't think that I'd find them there.

In one way you're probably right- he would most likely view this doubt as double-mindedness.

However, in the midst of my doubt and nihilism I've found reading the thoughts of a man so intelligent and grounded in faith to be invigorating.

[norad]

Originally Posted by RonM

In one way you're probably right- he would most likely view this doubt as double-mindedness.

However, in the midst of my doubt and nihilism I've found reading the thoughts of a man so intelligent and grounded in faith to be invigorating.

I don't really want to read or listen to anything which doesn't touch on my very questions. It drags me down to do that. I have listened to thousands of sermons always trying to find an answer and I found none. I cannot even stand listen to sermons anymore because most of them are so meaningless. I hate it when pastors tell anecdotes or try to be funny.
Maybe there simply are no answers to my problems. I'm so damn tired of this.

[Aeroflot]

I've written down my current thoughts on the matter of faith and doubt. While I've addressed these thoughts to "you" and "us", they're really to myself, so try not to read into this as if I were telling you how to think. Perhaps you will get something from this, so that's why I've gone ahead and posted this, instead of keeping it for myself. Originally this was an informal essay based upon your questions which I myself have and still do have to a point.

(The quoted passages here are taken from Jewish commentary on Genesis, and more specifically, from the chapters speaking of Abram and Sarai.)

"As a rule, that which we know and that which we feel remain two distinct domains. For example, we might know that God is the only true existence, but that knowledge does not necessarily influence how we feel about life -- for example, what attracts us or repulses us. The mind and heart function as if linked only by a narrow passageway (the throat) that prevents the insight of the mind from engendering emotional reactions in the heart."

In itself, head faith is not bad, and it is not fake faith. It is an urging by the soul to take action or to take the next step in life. If this urging is ignored, then you become discontented and stagnant. If you listen to the urge, then you have allowed more of God into you life, and thus you feel lighter, freer, stronger, and more confident; because you have exercised the free will given to you by God, and your "investment" in faith has shown that goodness exists.

"Exile's true purpose is to serve as a preparation for a greater revelation that will take place in the future redemption, a revelation that will shed light on the inner meaning of the suffering of exile."

Head faith is bad when the urge to take action is ignored. For this reason many Christians are deemed hypocrites. They say with words that they believe and pray to God, but their actions don't reflect their professions. They did not listen to their souls crying out, so they remain in a static state of torment: their stomachs churn, their minds twist and grind. Generally these people are confused, not because of religion, but because the soul and the material world work against one another, in a reverse tug-of-war. They saw that happiness existed in material objects, while at the same time trying to figure out what this so-called "feeling" was inside of them. That feeling is the head faith -- faith not addressed, faith left for dead.

"Divine providence leads us to our spark; if we redeem these sparks, we redeem ourselves from our personal, private exile, as well."

There are many types of fear and doubt. There is fear of the unknown and of accepting the soul's call to take action. Then there is the denial of the call and the fear of not being able to return to the chance to take it. Doubt comes after searching in all the wrong places for that calling; doubt comes after the source of the call is all forgotten and covered up. But God has allowed us free will to be able to at any time in life reassume the calling. He has left a small door open, so small that it seems like it doesn't exist. We thought it was all covered up, but some light through a crack fell onto our face while lying in bed, or driving a car, or at work, or in a moment of anguish.

The purpose of head faith is to be transformed into heart faith. Much of what exists in life exists to be transformed into something else.

The heart absorbs what's in its surroundings. It is a vessel that can be filled with good or evil. The popular view of the heart says that all goodness comes from the heart -- that's not necessarily true. What comes from it depends upon what you put into it. You fill it with kindness and it emits kindness. You allow anger into it and it freely distributes anger. Many people will talk about an "aura" surrounding people -- that's the force that is emitted by the heart, good or bad.

We are far more influenced by our surroundings that what it may seem. Television, books, friends, family, neighbors, the church, ads on billboards, newspapers -- these all have some measure of influence on our lives. By surrounding ourselves with what is good, we ensure that some good is within us. But if evil still exists, then we are filled both with good and evil. So if we wish to have more of the good, then we must take charge and create more good around us, to make less room for evil, to eventually push as much out as humanly possible.

Through altering our surroundings (Ex: reading the Bible or Christian books, hanging out with good people, helping others maneuver over obstacles in their lives, repairing damaged relationships, etc.) we experience goodness, and over time this goodness enters our heart. What is meant here is that goodness becomes a very real, almost physical. That which we see we believe, so the more goodness there is and the more we are exposed to it, the more we believe in this force. Slowly the head faith, the fledgling belief, moves into the heart and we genuinely believe. The faith becomes as real as the car on the road, the dog in the park, fish in a river, etc. There is no disconnect.

But, again, this is a slow process, and it should not be forced. If you force yourself to do God's work when you don't feel God close to you, then you will not be able to sustain yourself.

[danberado]

They'll only tell you stuff which makes it worse like you're not really saved or you don't really believe in your "heart".

I have struggled with doubts for so many years now and wished I could just believe like others and I can't. I'm so tired of this. I feel like such a disgrace because I don't overcome and what seems to work.

These sentences jumped out to me, and I'm sorry you've had to navigate through them.

[Phoenix Rising]

There is a difference between feeling doubt and acting in doubt. It's not wrong to FEEL anything. It's okay to not want to do something, it's ok to be afraid, it's okay to have 2nd guesses. We're human.

What we're discouraged against doing is following those emotions to where they bring us to sin. It's not wrong to be angry or even pissed of at someone, but cursing him/her, passion crimes, etc. are wrong. We're supposed to work on confronting our anger and making peace as soon as we can. I believe that as long as we do that, we're okay. And guess what? Even if we don't, God still loves us.

It's not wrong to feel doubt, it's perfectly understandable. Look at Mother Theresa. She continuously fought doubt through-out her life, but she didn't let that stop her from doing all the work she did. Where we can go wrong is letting that doubt control us to where we choose inaction.

I hope that helps.

[norad]

Hello everyone,

I read through your replies and some of it is very abstract and does not really touch on my particular problem, but I am also aware that the stuff I struggle with isn't very common and most christians can't relate to it because they'd never even think about such questions or struggle with them.

If there is intellectual faith (head faith), which according to most does not even save, and there is real faith (heart faith) then how do you even know if you have the real faith or not? All these distinctions between real faith and false faith create so many problems. And stuff like if you believe you just know it doesn't help me either because I don't just know it.
I am aware that there are christians who seem to be so dull that they probably never had a single doubt in their life or probably they're not even capable of thinking a doubtful thought but I'm none of them. Seeking help from such christians isn't helpful at all they will only tell you stuff like either you believe or you don't. This doesn't help someone struggling with faith and doubts.

How can you know wether you believe in your heart? This is all totally vague. I cannot work with these metaphors at all. Is it a feeling? What if you feel no confidence or courage but only fear and confusion and your mind is filled with doubts and what if thoughts then how can you possibly know wether you have faith or not?

And Jesus said:

Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass.


What does this mean? Does this mean if I pray and then directly after it gets thoughts like these then it's directly over?

What if it didn't work?
What if I didn't pray in faith?
What if I doubted and ruined it?
What if asking myself this very question wether I doubted and ruined it already means that I am doubting and that even if I hadn't ruined it before I ruined it now?

I have been through all these tormenting mind games. If you can pray for something and then directly blow it within a second by getting a doubtful or fearful thought then what hope is there for christians who struggle especially with fears and doubt and who simply cannot just pray and then sit back???

I also heard the argument that you cannot do anything against doubtful thoughts and that they are like birds which you can only keep from nesting but how shall I distinguish between only having a doubtful thought, which is supposedly allowed and doesn't ruin your prayer, and doubting in your heart which according to Jesus ruins it!??!
The bible doesn't answer these questions and I also cannot answer them and noone I ever asked to and no sermon I ever listened to and no book I read about faith and doubts addressed these pedantic questions which I have been struggling with for years.

Phoenix, you said there is a difference between feeling doubt and acting upon doubt. I heard this argument before. But what about Peter walking on the water? Peter only became afraid and he directly started to sink. How does this fit together with feeling doubt being okay? This destroys the argument in my opinion.
And Jesus also only said you must not doubt in your heart. This sounds like all you have to do is simply doubt or be double minded and waver and have what if thoughts and then you're directly out of the game.
And for me the fact that I must not doubt and that I must believe creates even more doubts. The more important it is not to doubt the easier it is for me to get doubts. Then what hope do I have left when I know that the only thing which could really help me would be answers to prayers and at the same time I cannot even pray because I know that it's useless because I know that as soon as I pray I'd directly be bombared with doubts?

[Phoenix Rising]

Well, Jesus was literally in person, right in front of him at the time. We don't have that. I'd say that there likely are different standards for a person's doubt when they are plainly looking at something right in front of them versus abstract thoughts and experiences.

You can continue to pray even though you feel doubt. Pray with someone else.

It might also help to speak to someone who works at a more liberal church.

[Phoenix Rising]

I also have a small thing to add. There's a Korean word "kyung-ee-kam" (경이감) which means both 'a sense of wonder, marvel, etc.' and 'a feeling of doubt or uncertainty.' I learned that word today and it reminded me of you and this post.

[Aeroflot]

From reading your posts, Norad, it seems like your goal is to have faith, rather than following the will of God. The difference between the two is that in wanting or desiring faith, faith is objectified, transforming it into something like a material object. You desire to have this object, and the mind is saying that if you acquire this object, then you will be happy, just as if you were to wish for a pretty woman or a shiny car. This is called Spiritual Materialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism

I got stuck in the trap of spiritual materialism for a while. The ladder to ascend out of this is to not focus on being a "Christian" but to simply follow the teachings of Christ. Forget about what good "Christians" do, and simply do what Christ would do. You don't get to have the pride of calling yourself a Christian, but in following Christ's example, you are taking action and living "as Christ". You won't be able to tell if you believe correctly, because you'll be too busy in the moment of "being Christ" in order to see where you are.

[norad]

Hi,

I don't know if we're understanding each other. I do not even know what you guys believe. I am talking about praying and then also getting answers. I am not talking about praying and then nothing happens. This doesn't help me. Of course I can pray every day for things to get better and they don't. This doesn't help me.
I am refering to what Jesus himself said about prayer which is mostly neglected today. Today it's like: Yeah, you can pray but God decides if you get it.
But this isn't what Jesus said.

Jesus said to the woman with the issue of blood your faith made you well.
This sounds a lot like spiritual materialism if you want to use this term. Jesus didn't say God chose to heal you. How'd you deal with that?

Anyway, my problem is that I am depressed and sick. I do not have any strength to go out there and follow Jesus or do any of the stuff christians are supposed to do. These advice really don't work for me. I could get involved in churches and I'd still be as depressed and without energy and hope as I already am, probably even more.