Anyone believe in universal salvation? - Page 2 - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 07:50 PM
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Don't worry about going to hell when you die, if you want you can PM me and I can talk to you more and talk you through it if you want.

I don't believe in universal salvation because I believe some souls will never be saved, they are too wicked and desirous to change for the Lord, they have too much pride and ego to submit themself to the the will of the Lord. There are wicked people who delight in their wickedness, how can they come to know and love Jesus? The need a massive change and sometimes it just doesn't happen, maybe after trillons of births. "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-06-2017, 04:58 AM
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Can Jesus be called "the Saviour of the world" (as in 1Jn_4:14) and not actually save the world? When Jesus returns will He find faith in the world?

Luk 18:8* I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shallG687 he find faith on the earth?*

G687
ἆρα
ara
ar'-ah
A form of G686, denoting an interrogation to which a negative answer is presumed: - therefore.
Total KJV occurrences: 3

Not surprised.

FAITH isn't blind. It's the EXPECTATION of things not seen. -Dave in Tenn
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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 12:33 AM Thread Starter
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Possibly the resolution to this is can be found in John 14:15:

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments".

If someone's faith is not reflected in their life, then that is a pointer that their faith is an illusion. So if it is an illusion in the first place, then faith vs works is irrelevant.
That's still faith+works=salvation to me. You basically define faith as "faith+works" and claim its faith alone.
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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 04:02 AM
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Demons have faith, but what good does that do them without works?

Jas 2:19* Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.*
Jas 2:20* But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?*

Faith alone will not save us, no more than it will save demons. James is telling us that we are no better than demons if we only have faith alone without works. Boy, James didn't mince words, did he?

James goes even further and says that not only is faith without works dead but that it is by works that faith is perfected. He used Abraham as an example.

Jas 2:21 Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

I don't believe Scripture contradict, and this idea of faith with works is all over the place. But men like Martin Luther (and most teachers for that matter) do contradict with his "faith alone" doctrine which has infected the minds of many Christians. The guy was a murderous lunatic, why do people follow people like that?

FAITH isn't blind. It's the EXPECTATION of things not seen. -Dave in Tenn
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 02:24 PM
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I don't believe Scripture contradict, and this idea of faith with works is all over the place. But men like Martin Luther (and most teachers for that matter) do contradict with his "faith alone" doctrine which has infected the minds of many Christians. The guy was a murderous lunatic, why do people follow people like that?
OK, I do not want to start a Catholic-Protestant war here, but this is news to me. I did a quick Internet search, and found this:

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspo...-murderer.html

I have not done proper research though.

I agree that it is dangerous to assume that faith alone is sufficient, since some people take that to mean they can do whatever they like. I think that is what my earlier post in this thread is saying implicitly.

cheer up - God is with you
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 04:48 PM
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"The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation." - Numbers 14:18

Many people bring up this verse as a point of contention. How could God punish children for sins not committed by them?

Some Rabbis believe that it suggests something very different than its most literal interpretation. Namely, that the "children" in the "third and fourth generation" are the parents reincarnated. Back then few people lived to see their grandchildren and even fewer their great grandchildren. This is partly why they believed their grandkids or great grandkids were themselves reborn. In other words, the verse warns that sin can follow you into the next life.

"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him. 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" - John 9:1

Why would the disciples ask if the man's blindness was caused by his sin if he had been born blind? When could he have sinned except in a past life?

Like in Hinduism, I believe souls can get closer to God or farther from God in each lifetime. Life is about finding God in wisdom, in His creation, and attaining a nearness to Him.

"And they were calling to one another: 'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of His glory.'" - Isaiah 6:3

"Sometimes the beauty is in the attempt."
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 05:10 PM
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OK, I do not want to start a Catholic-Protestant war here, but this is news to me. I did a quick Internet search, and found this:

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspo...-murderer.html

I have not done proper research though.

I agree that it is dangerous to assume that faith alone is sufficient, since some people take that to mean they can do whatever they like. I think that is what my earlier post in this thread is saying implicitly.
That is news to me as well, and as interesting as that is, it wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to a letter Martin Luther wrote: 'Against The Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants' in which he calls for the nobles to put down the rebels like mad dogs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther


Therefore let everyone who can, smite, slay, and stab, secretly or openly, remembering that nothing can be more poisonous, hurtful, or devilish than a rebel ... For baptism does not make men free in body and property, but in soul; and the gospel does not make goods common, except in the case of those who, of their own free will, do what the apostles and disciples did in Acts 4 [:32Ė37]. They did not demand, as do our insane peasants in their raging, that the goods of othersóof Pilate and Herodóshould be common, but only their own goods. Our peasants, however, want to make the goods of other men common, and keep their own for themselves. Fine Christians they are! I think there is not a devil left in hell; they have all gone into the peasants. Their raving has gone beyond all measure.[93]

I find it incredible how in that letter and in one breath he condems violence, and in the same breath he calls for the killing of rebels. If that isn't the spirit of a murderer then I don't know what is.




FAITH isn't blind. It's the EXPECTATION of things not seen. -Dave in Tenn
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 05:42 PM
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I think those that believe in faith alone are misinterpreting the picture, as without works faith is as good as dead. Faith cannot save one alone, one needs to be reborn in the Holy Spirit and continually work and strive to become more Christ-like. It is easy for one to have faith yet continue to live a life of sin, in fact many do this. I think works naturally follow true faith. Faith alone is not enough, one must literally be reborn in Christ. When one becomes a new creation in Christ, sin sickens them and they do everything to avoid sinning and do everything they can to be close to Him. This works arenít done in order to gain something or to simply please Him, they are caused by a reaction within that feels aversion to sin.

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"And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him. 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" - John 9:1

Why would the disciples ask if the man's blindness was caused by his sin if he had been born blind? When could he have sinned except in a past life?

Like in Hinduism, I believe souls can get closer to God or farther from God in each lifetime. Life is about finding God in wisdom, in His creation, and attaining a nearness to Him.

"And they were calling to one another: 'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of His glory.'" - Isaiah 6:3
I like this interpretation. I come from a Hindu background so reincarnation was a big thing for me. So do you believe we are continually reborn in the physical with the primary goal being reaching God-consciousness/liberation/moksha and once we reach God-consciousness we return to Him and are no longer reborn? I think there's more to the picture and that our current view of reincarnation is skewed and that it's way more intricate than we realize, I just haven't put the picture together yet. This is an interesting link http://www.swedenborg.com/swedenborg-and-reincarnation/

"I look back throughout my life and so often in the walk I see only one set of footprints, and I truly understand that is because for so long He carried me and without His blessings I would have never achieved anything of any significance". - Haystak, Pray for Me.
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 07:29 PM
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I like this interpretation. I come from a Hindu background so reincarnation was a big thing for me. So do you believe we are continually reborn in the physical with the primary goal being reaching God-consciousness/liberation/moksha and once we reach God-consciousness we return to Him and are no longer reborn? I think there's more to the picture and that our current view of reincarnation is skewed and that it's way more intricate than we realize, I just haven't put the picture together yet. This is an interesting link http://www.swedenborg.com/swedenborg-and-reincarnation/
His explanation for belief in reincarnation is interesting but to me reincarnation makes sense. I do think that we continue the wheel of rebirth until we reach moksha and unification with God. However, there may be an element of choice. A believer who tried hard to live an honest life could reach unification. Or they might choose to go back to Earth for God to work more in them and through them. For one who has been able to see the Light of the World in a past life could help guide others to it.

"Sometimes the beauty is in the attempt."
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 02:51 AM
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I think those that believe in faith alone are misinterpreting the picture, as without works faith is as good as dead. Faith cannot save one alone, one needs to be reborn in the Holy Spirit and continually work and strive to become more Christ-like. It is easy for one to have faith yet continue to live a life of sin, in fact many do this. I think works naturally follow true faith. Faith alone is not enough, one must literally be reborn in Christ. When one becomes a new creation in Christ, sin sickens them and they do everything to avoid sinning and do everything they can to be close to Him. This works arenít done in order to gain something or to simply please Him, they are caused by a reaction within that feels aversion to sin.
Yes that is basically what I was saying. The issue is a bit cloudy, though. What is agreed upon is that works alone are not sufficient.

cheer up - God is with you
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post #31 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 03:00 AM
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This seems like a dangerous way to believe. Because you don't want criminals to be punished for their crimes against humanity? You want them to get away with their deeds? And what about those who willingly made a choice to be seperate from God? Where can they go? For them it would be torture to be in heaven. It's not fair to those who do good all their lives and strive to obey God, and love others, that they end up in the same place as those who do evil. What use is it to try and do good then? Everybody gets the same reward anyway. That's not fair. It's very hard to live a disicplined and holy life, so when it's over you want to make sure you didn't strive and worked that hard for nothing. It's not hard to hate, destroy or kill if you love doing those things. But without any responsibility or consequences anything is allowed. The only fair and just system wich God implented is that of reward and punishment. You reap what you sowe. Call it karma. I don't want to be in the same place as Hitler, Mao or Stalin. Who willingly chose to disobey God an created their path or destiny bsed on their sins.
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post #32 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 08:48 PM
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This seems like a dangerous way to believe. Because you don't want criminals to be punished for their crimes against humanity? You want them to get away with their deeds? And what about those who willingly made a choice to be seperate from God? Where can they go? For them it would be torture to be in heaven. It's not fair to those who do good all their lives and strive to obey God, and love others, that they end up in the same place as those who do evil. What use is it to try and do good then? Everybody gets the same reward anyway. That's not fair. It's very hard to live a disicplined and holy life, so when it's over you want to make sure you didn't strive and worked that hard for nothing. It's not hard to hate, destroy or kill if you love doing those things. But without any responsibility or consequences anything is allowed. The only fair and just system wich God implented is that of reward and punishment. You reap what you sowe. Call it karma. I don't want to be in the same place as Hitler, Mao or Stalin. Who willingly chose to disobey God an created their path or destiny bsed on their sins.
A lover of God would have no room for fair or unfair in such a realm, anyways. They've cleared their heart and it is wide open for others, I would hope.

I feel you on this, though. I think that life is an opportunity to move within our intention, and the gift is that we are held accountable for our choices. However, is everything our choice? Do we all have every chance available? No. What then? It's really grey. I can only trust that in the "end" justice acknowledges all that grey area with mercy, compassion and forgiveness.

- Liz

"When we are young, itís the illusion of perfection that we fall in love with. But, as we age, itís the humanness that we fall in love with- the poignant story of overcoming, the depthful vulnerability of aging, the struggles that grew us in karmic stature, the way a soul shaped itself to accommodate its circumstances. With less energy to hold up our armor, we are revealed and, in the revealing, we call out to each otherís hearts....." ~ Jeff Brown of SoulShaping.com
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post #33 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 09:12 PM
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What really leads me towards universalism is the idea of salvation that we don't have to work for. Trying to be loving enough to earn God's approval leads to misery, as many including myself have found out. The threat of hell or purgatory is a nasty one, how can anyone live with that danger looming? The result is that a person tries to be good out of fear of hell, tries to love God out of fear or punishment, and that is a miserable way to live, a good God would not have it this way. I am reminded of the North Korean leaders, who are worshiped insincerely by the people out of fear or punishment.

If everyone goes to heaven, that does mean one can sin all he wants and still go there. However, sin has consequences here on earth and results in pain inflicted on self and others. So the motivation is still there to be a good person, except now it is motivation without the threat of eternal hell or intense purgatory. Doing the right thing is good for everyone and leads to less suffering here on earth. One can also be motivated by God's gift of universal salvation, that one doesn't have to do anything to be saved... this can create joy/love for God and wipe away any fear or hell.
My thoughts may not be so organized but I feel really compelled to respond to your comment. By the way, I am a Unitarian Universalist trying to reconcile Universalism with my Muslim identity of 16 years. It's tough. Really, really tough. I also grew up Catholic and I know that's hard there also.

I agree with you that it does and can lead many to misery, humidity. There's even a word for the type of anxiety/depression that this idealism leads to. I just forget it. I know that it has been the case for me. I see that often we are so literal with translations and our interpretations that we miss the point that people deserve individual spiritual prescriptions. Some people need building up much more through love, others through a tougher love, but I think it's always through love. And love is complex and messy too. The religious/spiritual prescriptions I received often tried to break me down, to remind me of my imperfection and flaws. But because my life experiences had already been so hard, with bullying and witnessing domestic violence, etc., what I actually needed was to be built up through the reminder of my worth and dignity, of the potential within me, the flows of power around me, the talents and skills my life has given me that I needed to uncover...while also being reminded of life's fragility and the interconnectedness of all things which brings humility.

Some claim to find freedom in the striving for perfection in the sight of the Divine. That's fine but I look for evidence of that working by observing the acceptance, love and space that is held for others despite differences in belief systems.

I think another way to also see it is that as we mature in life we move through reference points. As children we may need a strong reminder to remind us not to touch the stove and not to bite another kid. The goal I think is to aim for authentic growth with our intention. In the Sufi tradition, there's a spiritual woman known as Rabi'a al-Adawiyya who is quoted as having said (and living out) this ideal, "If I adore You (the Divine) out of fear of hell, burn me! If I adore you out of desire for paradise, lock me out of paradise. But if I adore you for Yourself alone, don't deny to me your eternal beauty."

My conclusion is this: There really are a lot of problems with the way we've done theology and passed it on. We see it as a one-size fits all and we have hurt a lot of people, emotionally, spiritually and physically. We hurt our own selves. I don't believe in ignoring that anymore and I think the real test isn't sticking to what we know and having faith in that, but to really honestly question the way we humans have handled revelation, its preservation and its application. We can claim it is from God all the day long but we are the stewards/caretakers of and on the earth.

- Liz

"When we are young, itís the illusion of perfection that we fall in love with. But, as we age, itís the humanness that we fall in love with- the poignant story of overcoming, the depthful vulnerability of aging, the struggles that grew us in karmic stature, the way a soul shaped itself to accommodate its circumstances. With less energy to hold up our armor, we are revealed and, in the revealing, we call out to each otherís hearts....." ~ Jeff Brown of SoulShaping.com
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post #34 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-20-2017, 07:49 AM
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A lover of God would have no room for fair or unfair in such a realm, anyways. They've cleared their heart and it is wide open for others, I would hope.

I feel you on this, though. I think that life is an opportunity to move within our intention, and the gift is that we are held accountable for our choices. However, is everything our choice? Do we all have every chance available? No. What then? It's really grey. I can only trust that in the "end" justice acknowledges all that grey area with mercy, compassion and forgiveness.

- Liz

True. But there has to be a clear seperation between good and evil. Every religion has these concepts and knows the difference. I believe everything is a choice except maybe for those mentally ill who cannot reach God, or those who are slaves to others or in a situation where you cannot know God. But normally yes. We can choose to call the name of God in our troubles or not. So, ofcourse only those who are not guilty cannot held accountable. You cannot be judged for something you didn't know. Who this will be I don't know. But often the last will be first and the first shall be last. Sure, God knows our sitation. Because He created us.
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post #35 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-21-2017, 03:42 PM
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post #36 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 01:26 AM
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This seems like a dangerous way to believe. Because you don't want criminals to be punished for their crimes against humanity? You want them to get away with their deeds? And what about those who willingly made a choice to be seperate from God? Where can they go? For them it would be torture to be in heaven. It's not fair to those who do good all their lives and strive to obey God, and love others, that they end up in the same place as those who do evil. What use is it to try and do good then? Everybody gets the same reward anyway. That's not fair. It's very hard to live a disicplined and holy life, so when it's over you want to make sure you didn't strive and worked that hard for nothing. It's not hard to hate, destroy or kill if you love doing those things. But without any responsibility or consequences anything is allowed. The only fair and just system wich God implented is that of reward and punishment. You reap what you sowe. Call it karma. I don't want to be in the same place as Hitler, Mao or Stalin. Who willingly chose to disobey God an created their path or destiny bsed on their sins.
"You want criminals to get away unpunished?" No mister, its just hard to believe that God would torture half of humanity for ever and ever.
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post #37 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-23-2017, 03:20 AM
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"You want criminals to get away unpunished?" No mister, its just hard to believe that God would torture half of humanity for ever and ever.


God doesn't punish you. You punish yourself by sinning. So you create your own fate willingly. No one forces you. Do you understand the difference? Be glad, that you have the freedom to choose between choosing good or evil. Because otherwise we all be doomed.
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