Anyone believe in universal salvation? - Social Anxiety Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-03-2014, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
SAS Member
 
humidity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 742
Anyone believe in universal salvation?

Means that everyone goes to heaven when they die. I've become a Christian Universalist, although all my life I've believed in hell. But recently I've become so tormented by the thought of anyone going to hell, that it made me wish the world would not have been created in the first place so that no one would go to hell. I had a realization of how horrific it is to be a human in a world with the danger of ending up in hell. With the danger of hell, abortion seems like the right thing to do... the sure way to guarantee no suffering. What if the baby is born but later in life chooses to reject God (as the free-will people believe), or worse, what if the baby was predestined for hell by God (as the reformed believe)?

I feel a lot more at peace now when I think about universal salvation, gives me a more optimistic view of life and God. Any fellow universalists here?
humidity is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-03-2014, 05:31 PM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: United States
Gender: Male
Posts: 326
What is the scriptural support for universal salvation?


The supreme function of reason is to show that some things are beyond reason.

-Blaise Pascal

soulstorm is offline  
post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-03-2014, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
SAS Member
 
humidity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 742
You can find it online if you want, I don't remember any verses off the top of my head. I don't view scripture as inerrant anymore though, some christian universalists do however. Many still believe in hell but only as a temporary correctional facility.

I abandoned the conservative theology I was originally exposed to because I realized how many different views there are in Christianity. We got so many denominations, and even within them there are multiple views on every topic. Also, old views die, new ones appear.

I used to believe the Bible said one thing and one thing only, but my view now is that it explains theology with very little clarity, which is why we end up with so many beliefs in Christianity... everyone has their own guess at what scripture really says.
humidity is offline  
 
post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-03-2014, 08:24 PM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Michigan
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Posts: 3,175
Scriptural support? First Timothy 4:10 states:

"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers"

Now I am going to give you my thoughts on this topic. Let's be clear, there is absolutely real danger of hell and not everyone goes to heaven when they die.

I don't have the time to write a long exegesis on this but I will try to prove it to you in a few quick ways.

So let us understand a little about what hell is first, hell is a state of separation from God. God is the source of all goodness and thus the more one is separated from Him, the more he suffers and therefore hell is a place of torture and great suffering. How do we know hell is real? That's easy, we can experience hell even while on earth. Not to the degree that we may experience it in the afterlife but we can all feel the eeffects of sin and separation from God and how that makes us feel and it ain't good.

So why it cannot be that everyone goes to heaven when they die? Heaven is a state of closeness or union with God. It is NECESSARY to love God and hate sin in order to enter into heaven. If someone's heart is full of wickedness and selfishness, then they will be unable to enter heaven because they will not perceive God's love and light as positive things. Instead, as they encounter God, God's love and truth will CONVICT them, as they realize how their behavior has been so out of allignment with the truth of God's love. At this point they may either choose to repent, in which case they will receive instant help from God or not to repent, in which case they will experience God's wrath. Once again, we can experience these same principles on earth, just to a lessor degree than in heaven. Who hasn't felt their conscience convict them when they perform sinful acts? So you see, being convicted ain't much fun, so in order to enjoy heaven, you need to be purified first. You need to develop love for God.

Even many devout Christian souls with great love for God don't necessary go to heaven when they die. Remember heaven is perfect so no sin can enter there. If your soul still has attachments, selfishness, etc then it will need to go through further purification before it can enter the full glory of heaven, which is union with Christ. These souls enter a place called Purgatory where the last remnants of sin are burned out of them preparing them for heavenly glory. Only very holy souls go straight to heaven when they die.

So again let us remember that union with Christ would not be a pleasant experience for an evil man who does not love God. It would be like his worst nightmare, it would mean his own destruction, you see.

If you read the Bible, its all about how to traverse the path that leads to life and how to avoid the path that leads to destruction. Jesus even said that the path leads to life is narrow and few people find it while the path that leads to destruction is broad and many find it.

Hardly any of the Bible would make sense if everyone just went to heaven when they died. What would be the point of devotion to God then? Why not just do whatever you want you see?

The Bible is very clear on this, the just, the faithful, those who do God's will inherit eternal life with God but sinners are cast into the lake of fire, the pit of destruction.

Now given all of this, you are probably wondering how I can even entertain ideas of universal reconcilation. Well let me try to explain. What you think a person is and how God sees a person is probably quite two quite different things.

A person has multiple components to it. There is the persons mortal body and mind, then there is the soul and then there is the spirit. When a person dies, these things separate. The soul separates from the mortal body-mind. This knowledge was common to early Christians but it seems to be largely ignored today, especially the part I am going to explain next.

There is a difference between your soul and your spirit. Your spirit is the most fundamental part of you, it is like the source of light within you that illuminates your soul and allows it to be known to you. Your spirit is eternal and is anchored outside of space and time, deriving its very existence from God's UNCREATED light. Your soul on the other hand, is a created thing. It can grow and change, be built up or broken down.

The path taught in the Holy Bible basically teaches us how to care for our souls. Recall the parable where Jesus says he who buiiilds his hoose on shifting sand is stupid because his house will be destroyed when harsh weather cometh but he who builds his house on rock is smart because his house can withstand the weather.

Your "house" means your soul (as the soul essentially is a house for the spirit) and building the house on rock means building up your soul in accordance with God's laws and principles, thus alligning it with eternal things.

St. Paul also speaks of this in his letter to the Corinthians:


"But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames."

So basically if a big part of your identity is built on sinful thoughts and beliefs, then as you are sanctified by the Lord, this part of you will be burned away leaving only the part of you which is faithful. THis is why purgatory/purification in general is painful, you are losing pieces of your identity and trying to form a new identity that conforms to the image of Christ, who reflects perfectly the invisible God in matter.

So are we clear that an unrepentant sinner would not be able to enjoy heaven because for him the light of God, which exposes and convicts all evil, will be percieved as destructive rather than life giving as it destroys his very identity? If you dont have at least some faith and love for God, then your soul cannot be saved because its entire identity would be burned up in the process.

So good souls are "pruned" as Jesus explains in his discorse of the vine and the branches (see John's gospel) to make them even better whereas bad souls are cut off and thrown into a fire where they are burned.

So, give all this how is universal reconciliation even possible? Well because of the difference between a persons soul and their spirit. Even if your soul is destroyed, your spirit will live on, because it is truly eternal. So my theory on universal reconcilation is that all people are destined to return to God, only some people will suffer the destruction of their souls in hell after which they are given a new soul and another chance at salvation until they eventually succeed.

The only problem I see with my theory is the idea that hell is ever lasting punishment, in which case you would have to ask how is it that the spirit of a lost soul can get out.

All I can say about this is that if you read the Bible, there are countless verses that describe hell as destruction not eternal life of suffering. The Bible says that the wicked will PERISH, not that they will live forever in pain. You have to ask yourself, why does scripture say this if hell is really eternal?

Another theory I have come up with to explain this problem is the idea that hell, being in the spiritual realm does not operate on linear time the way earth does. Perhaps hell is some sort of eternal torture where time does not even exist or the fires of hell burn eternally and the soul can stay almost indefinitely, but eventually it burns itself out and the persons spirit melts back into God and is then recreated with another soul to try again to be saved, kinda like reincarnation only not reincarnation in the sense that the previous soul has been entirely destroyed and so the one is not a reincarnation but truly a new soul.

Let us also bring to mind the fact that in the Bible Jesus says that both heaven and earth will pass away. In other words, not even heaven is eternal. Everything that is created, changes. So basically heaven only lasts for a certain period of time before it passes away and is then replaced by a new heaven. If heaven is not even eternal, how could hell be?


anyway, those are my thoughts. As you can see, a lot of it is just speculation and theorizing. I started thinking about this topic when I read the Bible and could not ignore the fact that the Bible kept saying that the wicked would be destroyed, that they would only exist for a short time , while the just would live forever. This simply doesnt jive with the idea that everyone lives forever, be it in heaven or hell, nor does it make much sense to me that an all good, all loving God would send his children to suffer forever. What purpose would it serve? Why not simply destroy the wicked as many scripture verses seem to imply?
Recipe For Disaster is offline  
post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
SAS Member
 
humidity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 742
The soteriology you are describing seems to be that one gets to enter heaven when he becomes a good enough person, loving enough towards God and others. Prolly most religions in the world teach this, that to enter the afterlife one needs to be good enough.

However, new testament likes to talk about how salvation is not by good works but by faith. Although, it does also says incomprehensible stuff about how good works have to be involved at the same time.

What really leads me towards universalism is the idea of salvation that we don't have to work for. Trying to be loving enough to earn God's approval leads to misery, as many including myself have found out. The threat of hell or purgatory is a nasty one, how can anyone live with that danger looming? The result is that a person tries to be good out of fear of hell, tries to love God out of fear or punishment, and that is a miserable way to live, a good God would not have it this way. I am reminded of the North Korean leaders, who are worshiped insincerely by the people out of fear or punishment.

If everyone goes to heaven, that does mean one can sin all he wants and still go there. However, sin has consequences here on earth and results in pain inflicted on self and others. So the motivation is still there to be a good person, except now it is motivation without the threat of eternal hell or intense purgatory. Doing the right thing is good for everyone and leads to less suffering here on earth. One can also be motivated by God's gift of universal salvation, that one doesn't have to do anything to be saved... this can create joy/love for God and wipe away any fear or hell.
humidity is offline  
post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-05-2014, 09:37 PM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Michigan
Gender: Male
Age: 33
Posts: 3,175
Quote:

However, new testament likes to talk about how salvation is not by good works but by faith. Although, it does also says incomprehensible stuff about how good works have to be involved at the same time.
Huh? What does it say that is incomprehensible?

Salvation is not by works but by faith, "he who is righteous by faith will be saved".

But as you will read in the book of James and elsewhere, we must also have works.


17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


If you say you have faith but your actions speak otherwise, then obviously you do not have very much faith. That is why Jesus said ""Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' Matthew 7:22

Now you have to admit thart makes absolutely no sense if you want to believe everyone just goes to heaven when they die, right? I could quote to you so many verses that speak of the doom of sinners. What about St. Paul saying that

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Cointhians 6:10

How can you just ignore scripture and say everyone goes to heaven? To me, the New Testament is very clear. What is needed in order to enter God's kingdom is righteousness. How does one attain righteousness? Not through anything you can do by your own effort, but through grace. How do we receive God's grace? By having faith in Him. When we put our faith in God, his grace can begin to transform us.

Quote:
Trying to be loving enough to earn God's approval leads to misery, as many including myself have found out.
Of course it does, that's the whole point about salvation coming through grace and not through your own effort. You can't make yourself love the way God loves, you can only offer yourself up to God and allow Him to mold you into what he desires you to be. Any attempt to become acceptable to God through your own effort is doomed to failure.


The threat of hell or purgatory is a nasty one, how can anyone live with that danger looming? The result is that a person tries to be good out of fear of hell, tries to love God out of fear or punishment, and that is a miserable way to live, a good God would not have it this way. I am reminded of the North Korean leaders, who are worshiped insincerely by the people out of fear or punishment.

Quote:
The threat of hell or purgatory is a nasty one, how can anyone live with that danger looming? The result is that a person tries to be good out of fear of hell, tries to love God out of fear or punishment, and that is a miserable way to live, a good God would not have it this way. I am reminded of the North Korean leaders, who are worshiped insincerely by the people out of fear or punishment.
This makes no sense to me. There is plenty of suffering on earth, in fact many people go through Purgatory type experiences on earth. Forgot about the afterlife for a moment and consider what God reveals to us about himself through what life is like on earth. It is obvious on earth that if one does certain (usually stupid or sinful) things, it can result in TREMENDOUS suffering while still on earth. So we know already from our earth life that not following God's will can have catastrophic consequences, we don't even need a belief in Purgatory in order to recognize that. So you are already wrong that a good god would not have it that way, because as anyone who suffered greatly in their life can attest to, it IS that way. You claim the result of this recognition is that a person tries to love God out of fear of the consequences and this leads to misery. Well it is true that if you ONLY love God out of fear of the consequences, it leads to misery, but why can't one be motivated by the desire to avoid hell AND also the desire to be with God in heaven at the same time? The painful consequences of sinful actions are meant to show us that there is no life outside of God, but we don't need to fear God as one would fear a viscous dictator because we also know that as long as we are faithful to God, he will be faithful to us and reward us a thousand fold. How can you not love God when you realize that? All he asks of us is that we trust in Him and do his will and in return he gives us everything we could want for ever and ever. Remember the Bible says all wisdom begins in fear of the Lord and St. Paul advises us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. THe Philokalia says one's attitude should be such that he trembles even as he rejoices in the presence of the almighty. In other words, it is healthy to have some fear of God. Having no fear of God leads to arrogance and pride.

Quote:
If everyone goes to heaven, that does mean one can sin all he wants and still go there. However, sin has consequences here on earth and results in pain inflicted on self and others. So the motivation is still there to be a good person, except now it is motivation without the threat of eternal hell or intense purgatory.
No it's not, not in the same sense. Take a rich person for instance. Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God than for a camel to travel through the eye of a needle (again, why would he say this if everyone went to heaven? It would make absolutely no sense. You are basically saying the Bible makes no sense and Jesus had no idea what he was talking about). But the point I want to make here is that while you are right that sin has earthly consequences causing pain to ourselves and others, the process of leaving behind sin and living a spiritual life also involves pain, often great pain, and that is one of the reasons it can be so difficult to give up sin.

So let's say i am rich, I spend my days having sex with beautiful women, doing drugs, eating luxurious foods, staying in luxurious hotels and doing other rich people stuff. Now it might certainly be true that doing this stuff is causing me pain spiritually on some level because deep down, this is not what my soul truly desires in life. But at the same time, giving up sex and drugs and my luxurious lifestyle, would also cause me pain, at least for a time, until I came into alligment with my spiritual purpose. In other words, this is a metaphor for the ascetic life. Now if I knew I was just going to heaven when I died regardless, then I would have very little motivation to change. Why go through the hardship of getting off drugs and missing out on having sex with hundreds of women in order to gain a more spiritual existence when that would simply be done for me when I died? I dont know about you, but I would take the easy road and just keep indulging in earthly pleasures until the time came for me to enjoy heavenly pleasures.

But this is total opposite to what the Bible teaches, as the quote about rich men demonstrates. The Bible says we need to begin preparing ourselves to enjoy eternal things NOW. The less prepared we are, the more pain we must go through in Purgatory, because breaking our attachments to things HURTS, in case you haven't noticed.

So, the Biblical teaching is that what we do now on earth counts. You on the other hand are saying the only benefits to leading a spiritual life are the benefits that affords to us in this lifetime, which could be great but could also end up being quite minimal depending on the situation. If what you are saying is true then why should I bother putting myself through any kind of hardship for the sake of the Kindgom of God, considering I just as well take it easy, do whatever is most pleasurable to me and still get there anyway? This is totally contrary to Biblical teaching, which says we should endure every hardship for the Kingdom of God.
Recipe For Disaster is offline  
post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-08-2014, 06:34 PM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: United States
Gender: Male
Posts: 326
If good works was all that was required to become saved the possibility of simply going to heaven as a motivation for doing good works enters the picture. For instance, what is more moral in this situation: you found someone's wallet on the ground and hoping for a cash reward, you return it to them. What if you could somehow know you weren't going to get anything? Would you simply take the cash out of the wallet and throw everything else in the trash? Faith comes first, then your worldview changes as God's spirit descends upon you. Faith without works is dead because the resurrection and the atonement for sin is simply one piece of a very large puzzle.


The supreme function of reason is to show that some things are beyond reason.

-Blaise Pascal

soulstorm is offline  
post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-10-2014, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
SAS Member
 
humidity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 742
Recipe for disaster, I believe the bible is incomprehensible about salvation because it sometimes says salvation is solely though faith, but in other places it says that works are required as well... a contradiction... so the result is not by faith alone, but actually faith+works=salvation. Yes, I disregard a lot of scripture, because I don't believe the bible is inerrant anymore. My view is that since the deity Jesus didn't write the bible, but finite men who have sinful body and mind did, scripture is prone to error.

In your post you tried to argue that salvation=faith+works. That's fine if you want to believe it, but this is a concept that I don't believe in anymore. I don't like the idea of human involvement in salvation, because I think it's a miserable thing for a God to do, to burden his creature with a finite mind/knowledge and then expect him to save himself by faith/works/anything.
humidity is offline  
post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-22-2016, 05:43 AM
SAS Member
 
porter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 67
My Mood: Fine
Hi humidity,

I know this is an old thread, but I kinda came upon it by accident. When I realized it was an social anxiety support site I just had to join and chime in!

So yes not only do I have a deathly fear of being in social settings, but I also believe in Universal Salvation/Universal Reconciliation. I also believe if the Church teaches something, it's prolly a lie.

I've studied the Scriptures for years and you'd be surprised how easy it is to show through careful study of His Word that God really will save all of humanity like He says. Just remember, Scriptures do not contradict, but people do contradict the Scriptures all the time.

I also agree the TRANSLATIONS we have are not inerrant, but the original Hewbrew and Greek Scriptures are. You've prolly heard the phrase "lost in translation"? Well that is the case with languages thousands of years old. It's impossible to get a perfect word for word translation from one language to another. Then there is the problem of the translators bringing in their own bias according to their traditions. The very translators of the first edition of the KJV of 1611 state it's not perfect as kind of an disclaimer. They have since taken the preface out that states this from most newer modern translations of the King James Versions.

The real kicker is believe it or not, God intended it to be this way. And the rabbit hole only gets deeper from here, so I'll end with that.

If your really interested there some good material you can find here @ www.bible-truths.com. The writer has put in thousands of hours into studying the Scriptures getting to the "meat of the word" and sharing his findings. He does a very scholarly job too for a simple roofer.

Alright hope to hear from you humidity. I'm always up for fellowship with like minded people.

Porter
porter is offline  
post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-24-2016, 05:14 PM
Querdenker
 
hoddesdon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canberra, Australia
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,312
My Mood: Confused
^ Yes, the English Bible is a translation of Latin translated from Greek and/or Hebrew. That is why many clergymen/theologians study the original language.

cheer up - God is with you
hoddesdon is offline  
post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-24-2016, 09:30 PM
SAS Member
 
porter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 67
My Mood: Fine
Oh yeah totally agree hoddesdon about the English bible being translated from the Latin. Thats not to say you cant still learn from English translations because you can. The point is not to idolize one over the other and use as many as you can along with a good dictionary or two.

I really like the KJV along with the Concordant Literal Version, Ferrar Fenton Bible, HCSB and the NiRV which is a children's bible. I use a lot of others, but those are my go to ones.
porter is offline  
post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 11:44 AM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1
I also agree that, while scripture is inerrant, our translations are not. So, as somebody already said, very careful study is needed. Evidence abounds to support a doctrine of universal restoration with scripture, though it seems few are inclined to examine it. It appears that the doctrine of eternal conscious torment was appropriated into church doctrine in the 6th Century, 553 A.D., when Emperor Justinian at the 5th ecumenical council declared anathema those who taught else but eternal punishment in hell. whereas for centuries before this some form of universal salvation was commonly taught by many theological luminaries. The details of this can easily be found by anyone with a sincere interest and open mind, so I won't belabor it.

But I do wonder why there is such a massive unwillingness to question how our loving and merciful Lord and Creator would consign unbelieving people created in His own image to everlasting torture, when Jesus Himself prayed for the forgiveness of those who mocked and murdered Him, and commanded us to love our enemies. It's psychotic to say, Love me or forfeit all opportunity for repentance while I'll torture you for ever more. I don't blame many millions of unbelievers for not believing this nonsense. The parable of the prodigal son teaches clearly enough that, while we will definitely suffer, reap as we've sown, if we insist on going our own way rather than following Christ in loving obedience, our Father in Heaven will nonetheless welcome us with open arms when we finally come to our senses. Love is patient and long suffering, and there is nothing in the whole universe, seen or unseen, more persistently stubborn than our Lord's mercy. Begin with that premise and search the scriptures diligently, seeking beyond the English text to original sources, and the story will become quite clear.
Horan is offline  
post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 01:00 PM
SAS Member
 
Excaliber's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Canada
Gender: Male
Age: 23
Posts: 651
My Mood: Inspired
I'm just going to write down what I've been told personally. I'm looking at what is written too because I find it interesting.

I've always thought that 'being good' or doing 'good works' is not enough, especially through fear of hell is not going to give you a free ticket to heaven. Works come through faith not fear, they are an after product. Also Why would God let you in heaven if you decided to have no relationship with him whatsoever, that is like me showing up at a strangers house and saying I'm moving in because I'm nice, it doesn't work.

Maththew7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

Also I think the only way to heaven, or more importantly God is through Jesus only, in faith in him and believing.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Excaliber is offline  
post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-23-2016, 10:49 AM
SAS Member
 
porter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 67
My Mood: Fine
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horan View Post
But I do wonder why there is such a massive unwillingness to question how our loving and merciful Lord and Creator would consign unbelieving people created in His own image to everlasting torture, when Jesus Himself prayed for the forgiveness of those who mocked and murdered Him, and commanded us to love our enemies.
Jesus gave an answer as to why people do not question such horrible doctrines.

The Purpose of the Parables

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

If you know one parable then you will know them all. I believe the key to understanding all parables is found in the following parable.

The Parable of the Wedding Feast

Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Believers and non-believers alike fully understand the doctrine of eternal torment; so that cant be the something they are unable to hear and see. But it does take eyes and ears to understand what a damnable doctrine it really is, as you have shown with what you stated here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horan View Post
It's psychotic to say, Love me or forfeit all opportunity for repentance while I'll torture you for ever more.
So don't be too hard on them, for what do you have that you did not receive? (1Co 4:7) There is so much more to "hear and see" aside from universal salvation and the lie that is eternal torment.

Peace
porter is offline  
post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 10-24-2016, 04:08 AM
SA Stig Soldier
 
twitchy666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Berkshire
Gender: Male
Age: 40
Posts: 5,363
My Mood: Lonely
Lightbulb suckteeth?

tsk

tsk

tsk!
twitchy666 is offline  
post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 12:53 AM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horan View Post
But I do wonder why there is such a massive unwillingness to question how our loving and merciful Lord and Creator would consign unbelieving people created in His own image to everlasting torture, when Jesus Himself prayed for the forgiveness of those who mocked and murdered Him, and commanded us to love our enemies. It's psychotic to say, Love me or forfeit all opportunity for repentance while I'll torture you for ever more. I don't blame many millions of unbelievers for not believing this nonsense. The parable of the prodigal son teaches clearly enough that, while we will definitely suffer, reap as we've sown, if we insist on going our own way rather than following Christ in loving obedience, our Father in Heaven will nonetheless welcome us with open arms when we finally come to our senses. Love is patient and long suffering, and there is nothing in the whole universe, seen or unseen, more persistently stubborn than our Lord's mercy. Begin with that premise and search the scriptures diligently, seeking beyond the English text to original sources, and the story will become quite clear.
I completely agree with you. I think it comes down to whether or not people believe a loving God could send people to hell forever or not.
sad1231234 is offline  
post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-04-2016, 06:29 AM
jihad has many meanings.
 
ljubo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Sweden
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,732
I am sorry, but no. God is clear in the quran and the bible that hell exists and that it is forever and that torture will happen there. I wish everyone could go to heaven at one point. I dont think any human is 100 % "evil". Some people just have bad lifes etc and do bad things.....they should get severy penalty here on earth or in afterlife for some time, but then get forgivness in my opinion, or if they want, they could choose enternal death aswell.

The thought of someone being tortured for ever and ever makes me sick. Not even Hillary, Mao Zedong, Stalin etc deserves this.
ljubo is offline  
post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 08:59 PM
SAS Member
 
sprinter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,280
There is no biblical support for the idea of eternal torment in hell. The Bible is clear that the wages of sin is death. I don't believe in universal salvation but that the vast majority of mankind will be saved.
sprinter is offline  
post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-06-2016, 10:26 PM
SAS Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljubo View Post
I am sorry, but no. God is clear in the quran and the bible that hell exists and that it is forever and that torture will happen there. I wish everyone could go to heaven at one point. I dont think any human is 100 % "evil". Some people just have bad lifes etc and do bad things.....they should get severy penalty here on earth or in afterlife for some time, but then get forgivness in my opinion, or if they want, they could choose enternal death aswell.

The thought of someone being tortured for ever and ever makes me sick. Not even Hillary, Mao Zedong, Stalin etc deserves this.
It is not clear in the bible because the bible has been translated 2 or 3 times. What we see written as "eternal" originally meant an unspecified period of time, usually long in duration. Although if im correct, it might have meant eternal in some cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprinter View Post
There is no biblical support for the idea of eternal torment in hell. The Bible is clear that the wages of sin is death. I don't believe in universal salvation but that the vast majority of mankind will be saved.
The bible says "all flesh shall see salvation" and that God will eventually reconcile with everyone/everything.
sad1231234 is offline  
post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-05-2017, 06:54 PM
SAS Member
 
Wayfaring Stranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 3
I'm a firm believer in universal salvation and the Bible shows that concept to be quite valid once all the references are examined.

The ones in the most danger are the ones who die on the day of return.

Re:19:21:
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

They do end up in hell for the period of time called the 1,000 year reign and they stay there when Satan and the remaining fallen angels are sent to the fiery lake. Hell is emptied only at the Great White Throne and it is those people who are given the drink of living water at the start of Re:21.

Isaiah:65 is also specific to that same group and their torment is in the verses below. To show that the GWT is a time of chastisement rather than the beginning of further punishment all of Hebrews:12 is what takes place at that time so it ends up being 'the rest' that the ones building houses outside of Jerusalem in that chapter. Since it is new earth verses Jerusalem is New Jerusalem and the people that are alive for the 1,000 year reign live inside the city.

Isa:65:12-15:
Therefore will I number you to the sword,
and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter:
because when I called,
ye did not answer;
when I spake,
ye did not hear;
but did evil before mine eyes,
and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD,
Behold, my servants shall eat,
but ye shall be hungry:
behold,
my servants shall drink,
but ye shall be thirsty:
behold,
my servants shall rejoice,
but ye shall be ashamed:
Behold,
my servants shall sing for joy of heart,
but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart,
and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee,
and call his servants by another name:

Heb:12:22-25:
But ye are come unto mount Sion,
and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem,
and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,
which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all,
and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,
and to the blood of sprinkling,
that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.
For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth,
much more shall not we escape,
if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Wayfaring Stranger is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
the universal pelvic.. thinkstoomuch101 General Discussion 2 08-11-2012 05:53 PM
There are no universal techniques. There are universal similarities only because we a BilliAnn Spiritual Support 0 12-06-2011 11:11 AM
Salvation Brightpaperwarewolf Spiritual Support 9 10-21-2011 11:51 PM
salvation beliefs Sunshine009 Voting Booth 2 06-11-2011 10:44 PM
universal healthcare justpassingby Society & Culture 54 10-31-2008 10:45 AM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome