I refuse to be a conformist puppet in this decadent extroverted society! - Page 2 - Social Anxiety Forum
X

Download the SAS Android App

Or switch to mobile version of the forums

X

Download the SAS iPhone App

Or switch to mobile version of the forums

Help/FAQLog InJoin SAS
Go Back   Social Anxiety Forum > Recovery > Frustration

Reply
Old 10-23-2011, 05:53 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Age: 26
Posts: 67



Default

The 'introverts are weak line' in unfounded for lots of reasons.. the most obvious ones spring from the link between "introversion" and "independence." Is it not weak to constantly hunger for social feedback and reassurance? Those people, too, are extroverts. There are strong extroverts, of course, and there are weak introverts; but I see no reason to suppose that extroversion and strength are linked.

And saying that this is just a rationalization of one's own failings really isn't accurate, either. Modern society is really extremely social in most developed countries. Compare it to pre-industrialized society - sure, you still had to interact, but you were pretty much given a role in society (from parents, etc.) and the number of people you had to interact with, especially strangers, was way lower. Or just compare it to most of industrialized history, where there have been factory jobs, etc (which are now outsourced). Obviously, those times had their own problems, and I do not idealize the past or have any desire to return to it, but I do think modern 1st world countries are exceptionally social and favor extroversion in unprecedented ways. You know, "service economies"? It is an economic fact that the service industry is increasingly dominant, and it is unquestionably biased toward extroverts.

What jobs really still exist for introverts? Look at thankyou's list, most of them are actually pretty social jobs. Small business owners, actors, musicians, even research scientists, all have to network and sell themselves like crazy to make it work.

It's obvious why society - a concept directly related to human interaction - has systematically favored extroverts. But it doesn't need to be that way, and I agree that it shouldn't be. Introverts have a lot to offer, and if they're accommodated more, then everyone will benefit. This does not mean they need more accommodation than extroverts, for whom all of society works to accommodate (what are waiters / flight attendants / human telephone operators / clerks / "greeters" / doormen / etc. etc., if not accommodations for the extroverts?)

I think this has been posted here before, but I think Alan Watts had some good stuff to say about hermits, (not that I 100% agree, necessarily):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMheNLq97D4
arsenius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2011, 05:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 619



Default

Octavius it's just something you should accept. Rather than wish things were different, or try to fight something you can't change, focus your energies on other things. Or maybe slowly try to be more social. Possibly get a job where you work by yourself if that's the problem.
FabledHero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 01:36 AM   #23 (permalink)
 
Status: User Requested Permanent Ban
Join Date: May 2011
Gender: Male
Age: 20
Posts: 1,335



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pennywise View Post
In what way?
Okay, I guess from a natural selection point of view, it wasn't THAT unfounded, but you can't really state that extroversion is strength and introversion weakness as it is a subjective opinion (even if it may be true). Since it is subjective, you can pretty much dismiss it by saying the opposite unless you have definitive proof that your view is correct.

You can't fully use natural selection 100% as a measurement of strength with humans anyways, as humans have intelligence (unless that IS a form of natural selection, then I guess this argument is invalid). I find it very hard to believe that humans got to where we are now on caveman social instinct alone, think about it, if humans had no intelligence/ just instinct, I think it would be pretty difficult to beat any animals to survive without becoming prey (try fighting a lion bare handed and try to prove me wrong).
Due to intelligence being in EVERYONE (introverts and extroverts) many introverts will be able to use their intelligence to mate and survive (don't ask me how, ask the intelligent introverts)!

Besides, evolution is just a theory, meaning all of this natural selection stuff could be wrong anyways (unlikely, but possible). You also said that the weak introverts die out- so does that mean the the strong introverts mate and survive, or all introverts are gone forever?
That would be pretty hard to do anyways, to wipe out all introverts, as humans will continue to mate, and statistically speaking many introverts would be born from the so called "strong" extroverts.

It's funny, the process you talked about in your post pretty much theorized an involuntary genocide of introverts (almost like what the Nazis did to achieve a "perfect" race). I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, and natural selection isn't technically genocide, but they do sound pretty similar.

In short: if you are right, total extinction of introverts would probably take millions of years, so it's none of our concern!
WTFAust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 03:03 AM   #24 (permalink)
kev
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 1,676



Default

lol, yeah, i don't believe in social darwinism. I think it is mostly BS.
kev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 04:04 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
EnlightenedElephant's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 79



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFAust View Post
Okay, I guess from a natural selection point of view, it wasn't THAT unfounded, but you can't really state that extroversion is strength and introversion weakness as it is a subjective opinion (even if it may be true). Since it is subjective, you can pretty much dismiss it by saying the opposite unless you have definitive proof that your view is correct.

You can't fully use natural selection 100% as a measurement of strength with humans anyways, as humans have intelligence (unless that IS a form of natural selection, then I guess this argument is invalid). I find it very hard to believe that humans got to where we are now on caveman social instinct alone, think about it, if humans had no intelligence/ just instinct, I think it would be pretty difficult to beat any animals to survive without becoming prey (try fighting a lion bare handed and try to prove me wrong).
Due to intelligence being in EVERYONE (introverts and extroverts) many introverts will be able to use their intelligence to mate and survive (don't ask me how, ask the intelligent introverts)!

Besides, evolution is just a theory, meaning all of this natural selection stuff could be wrong anyways (unlikely, but possible). You also said that the weak introverts die out- so does that mean the the strong introverts mate and survive, or all introverts are gone forever?
That would be pretty hard to do anyways, to wipe out all introverts, as humans will continue to mate, and statistically speaking many introverts would be born from the so called "strong" extroverts.

It's funny, the process you talked about in your post pretty much theorized an involuntary genocide of introverts (almost like what the Nazis did to achieve a "perfect" race). I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, and natural selection isn't technically genocide, but they do sound pretty similar.

In short: if you are right, total extinction of introverts would probably take millions of years, so it's none of our concern!
Evolution is proven, there exists evidence that evolution exists (eg. antibiotic resistance).
EnlightenedElephant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 05:10 AM   #26 (permalink)
 
CeilingStarer's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Gender: Male
Age: 32
Posts: 3,587



Default

I don't really agree with all the evolution stuff either... well, in terms of people like us not making the cut/being inferior. We don't go out/socialise as much, so our chances of procreating are reduced.... but an outgoing person will have a much higher risk of death (say an outgoing teen virgin who dies in a car crash)... or any number of the many people who die outside of their home before creating offspring.

I was reading something about this as it related to primitive species, and being cautious/shy was actually linked to being the fittest. The macho, extroverts would just go out and kill each other, then you could move in when everyone is dead or maimed and impregnate the remaining female. Cannot remember the source.

To me, evolution in itself means improvement/refinement. In a world where we could suddenly only consume, say, faeces, some would adapt, and live... but would that really be improvement? I think I'd be 'fitter' integrity wise to say **** this and starve myself. I feel this to be an analogy of how the world is now. I guess I'm just saying that I refuse to feel "inferior" for how I am. I'd feel inferior if it was some awesome utopia and I was unable to thrive in it.

Anyway, rambling, and I resonate with you OP. I guess I've just taken the renegade stance, where I've given my finger to the system, realised I cannot climb it's ladder, but no longer want to anymore. I go through a bit of **** to get income, but as long as I get it, I walk out the door and forget about it until next time.
CeilingStarer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 05:11 AM   #27 (permalink)
kev
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Age: 30
Posts: 1,676



Default

I believe in evolution, just not social darwinism.

Sorry if I was harsh, I just think social darwinists are often elitists and I want nothing to do with them.
kev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 06:32 AM   #28 (permalink)
 
Status: User Requested Permanent Ban
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Queens, NY
Gender: Male
Age: 20
Posts: 3,567



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiirby View Post
It's hardly surprising that extroversion is so valued in modern society that it's barely worth complaining about. In the vast majority of jobs, the ability to communicate effectively with your colleagues, to liase with clients, and to contribute to a comfortable working environment is invaluable. Extroversion, as you are imagining it, is not merely some favoured personality type, but the key to functioning properly in society as a whole. It's also where your interpretation goes astray. You're assuming that just to be extroverted is to be everything which you believe you lack. You're also assuming that it's a black and white issue. Most people are some odd combination of extrovert and introvert without being at one end of the spectrum, and they all experience problems without being able to smooth talk their way through job interviews. I think you'll find that extreme extroverts experience as much difficulty in that field as you do.

To me, it seems like you're using your introversion as an excuse for your own failings and inadequacies which may or may not be related. Employment exists and has always existed for those who aren't keen on social interaction, perhaps you're just looking in the wrong places. Everyone has hurdles to overcome in terms of achieving an attractive enough persona to be hired; funnily enough having a job isn't about being yourself or preserving your principles, it's about making money. All of your posts are intelligently written and well articulated, you need not moan about the world being set against you because most likely it's only yourself that's in your way. There is a niche for you, and whilst it may be small you'll fit into it perfectly. The difference between success and failure isn't your personality type, it's how much effort you put into it, and how lucky you are. Deal with it.
I'm gonna have to agree with this (very well said btw).

While I understand where you're coming from Octavius, there really isn't much of a point in complaining about it. Being an extrovert gives you a huge advantage in society, I agree with you there, but like kiirby said it's a useful trait, so I can't really get mad at that. Also it's not like if you're an introvert you can't learn how to do that. It is harder, which is why I see where you're coming from, but if you really want a job that highly values being able to speak your mind, you can work at it. I'm not saying with a little practice you can become an outspoken person, but you can learn to become more comfortable speaking your mind (and your very articulate so there's no doubt in my mind if you do learn how, people will respect you).

Also, like kiirby said, there are things you can do that don't require you to be an extrovert, you're not doomed to being a homeless bum at all (I found that part kinda funny tbh lol). And you can even do the things that extroverts do, as long as you're able to speak your mind. It actually sounds like you're using your being an introvert as a legit excuse for you not being able to succeed, and I completely disagree with that. You can succeed, you just have to work on your communication skills more than an extrovert would have, that's all.

Overall I understand your point and do agree that being an extrovert gives you an advantage in society (always has, always will). But I think saying it's either you become an extrovert or you fail in life is very extreme and just not true. Is it harder for us? Sure, but being an extrovert doesn't automatically mean you'll succeed and being an introvert doesn't mean you're doomed to fail. There are so many other factors that decide whether we live a good life or not, how outspoken you are is only a part of it.
Hopeful25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 07:39 AM   #29 (permalink)
 
Status: User Requested Permanent Ban
Join Date: May 2011
Gender: Male
Age: 20
Posts: 1,335



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnlightenedElephant View Post
Evolution is proven, there exists evidence that evolution exists (eg. antibiotic resistance).
Can I see this evidence?
WTFAust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 03:23 PM   #30 (permalink)
 
Octavius's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Europe
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 861



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiirby View Post
It's hardly surprising that extroversion is so valued in modern society that it's barely worth complaining about. In the vast majority of jobs, the ability to communicate effectively with your colleagues, to liase with clients, and to contribute to a comfortable working environment is invaluable. Extroversion, as you are imagining it, is not merely some favoured personality type, but the key to functioning properly in society as a whole. It's also where your interpretation goes astray. You're assuming that just to be extroverted is to be everything which you believe you lack. You're also assuming that it's a black and white issue. Most people are some odd combination of extrovert and introvert without being at one end of the spectrum, and they all experience problems without being able to smooth talk their way through job interviews. I think you'll find that extreme extroverts experience as much difficulty in that field as you do.

To me, it seems like you're using your introversion as an excuse for your own failings and inadequacies which may or may not be related. Employment exists and has always existed for those who aren't keen on social interaction, perhaps you're just looking in the wrong places. Everyone has hurdles to overcome in terms of achieving an attractive enough persona to be hired; funnily enough having a job isn't about being yourself or preserving your principles, it's about making money. All of your posts are intelligently written and well articulated, you need not moan about the world being set against you because most likely it's only yourself that's in your way. There is a niche for you, and whilst it may be small you'll fit into it perfectly. The difference between success and failure isn't your personality type, it's how much effort you put into it, and how lucky you are. Deal with it.
I do not blame introversion. I blame the society for systematically preferring extrovert behaviour. How can you say that extroversion allows the society to function effectively? As you yourself admit, it's completely untrue. What matters to a correct functioning of the society is not extroversion but effective communication. Now, communication can have many forms. Introverts communicate, too, but not the same way as extroverts (they use a different communication code). Why are extroverts preferred then? Extroversion itself does not represent any significant plus to the society. But, simply, extroverts get on better with each other and don't want to deal with introverts, those "weirdos". And they are louder. That's why. Of course pure extroverts are a minority but that's even more scandalous: this minority imposes their idea of what social interaction and communication should be like on the rest of the society.

I feel like there's no place for me here, in this society. I cannot be successful because I will never master the extrovert communication code. In the first place, I am digusted and scandalized about the very fact that I am obliged to master the extrovert communication code to at least have a hope to get a career (and a very bad career, indeed, because there is not good career for me). I just think that my life is totally *****ed up and don't wanna live. I just don't wanna fight anymore. I'm too disgusted. I have fought a lot. I have fought with the society by trying to prove that even an introvert can be a lawyer - I started to study law (me!). I failed (Academically, I do well, but in the law firm I work at, they all think I'm stupid and incompetent). I have fought with my family who rejected me because of my introversion. I failed to overcome this trauma and to heal my crippled self-esteem. I have also unsuccessfully fought with my sexuality, social anxiety, depression, isolation... I lost every battle. I live totally abandoned, marginalized. I feel like having no value. And this world has no value for me, either. So, logically, I shouldn't stay here.
Octavius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 03:30 PM   #31 (permalink)
 
Snow Bunny's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: UK
Gender: Female
Age: 24
Posts: 613



Default

I agree with OP.
Everybody has to be a certain way, if they're not, they are ostracised. Sometimes I think I'd get more respect as a mass murderer than what I am now.
Snow Bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 03:35 PM   #32 (permalink)
 
InfiniteBlaze's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Gender: Male
Age: 21
Posts: 11,628



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiirby View Post
To me, it seems like you're using your introversion as an excuse for your own failings and inadequacies which may or may not be related. Employment exists and has always existed for those who aren't keen on social interaction, perhaps you're just looking in the wrong places. Everyone has hurdles to overcome in terms of achieving an attractive enough persona to be hired; funnily enough having a job isn't about being yourself or preserving your principles, it's about making money. All of your posts are intelligently written and well articulated, you need not moan about the world being set against you because most likely it's only yourself that's in your way. There is a niche for you, and whilst it may be small you'll fit into it perfectly. The difference between success and failure isn't your personality type, it's how much effort you put into it, and how lucky you are. Deal with it.
Thank. You. There are tons of successful introverts out there.
InfiniteBlaze is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 03:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
Octavius's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Europe
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Posts: 861



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfiniteBlaze View Post
Thank. You. There are tons of successful introverts out there.
Sure. As kirby says, we are just lazy as*es. We do not try hard enough!
Octavius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 04:08 PM   #34 (permalink)
 
kiirby's Avatar
 
Status: wet and wilde
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: England.
Gender: Male
Age: 22
Posts: 3,939



Default

That is precisely what I was saying, thankyou for paraphrasing my words so effectively.
__________________
"Anytime I see something screech across a room and latch onto someone's neck, and the guy screams and tries to get it off, I have to laugh, because what is that thing".
-Jack Handey
kiirby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 04:33 PM   #35 (permalink)
 
zomgz's Avatar
 
Status: Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Gender: Female
Age: 24
Posts: 6,240



Default

This is the frustration forum, so complaining about stuff is kinda what we do here. It was a good rant and I totally agree. I often wonder though, if sometimes we only see extroverts because they are loud and out there. The introverts blend in, so maybe there really are more than we think.
__________________

Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present, and by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.― Cloud Atlas

“It's not the face, but the expressions on it. It's not the voice, but what you say. It's not how you look in that body, but the thing you do with it. You are beautiful.” ― The Host

“My thoughts are stars I cannot fathom into constellations.” ― The Fault in Our Stars


zomgz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 04:45 PM   #36 (permalink)
 
EmotionlessThug's Avatar
 
Status: Emotionless
Join Date: Oct 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,206



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kathy903 View Post
I feel ya. Become a computer programmer with me. lol
That's good money right there tho. Might as well become a video game designer and a computer programmer to make some good money in this stupid f***k up economy.
__________________
People with social problems can defeat the secret society!!!

Let's bring balance to this world like Naruto, Korra, Yu Narukami, Ichigo!!!
EmotionlessThug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 05:10 PM   #37 (permalink)
 
Glacial's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Maryland, USA
Gender: Male
Age: 28
Posts: 2,492



Default

Introversion seems to carry a negative connonation, like when people refer to someone as the "quiet one." It's like a disease. People seem to assume the introverted kind are plotting evil or something.
__________________
Demons run when a good man goes to war.
Night will fall and drown the sun when a good man goes to war.
Friendship dies and true love lies.
Night will fall and the dark will rise when a good man goes to war.
Demons run but count the cost; the battle's won but the child is lost.

Glacial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 05:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
 
Brightpaperwarewolf's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,626



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfiniteBlaze View Post
Thank. You. There are tons of successful introverts out there.
Yes and even that require adjustments and literally forcing yourself to be more extroverted. It's not about conforming. It's about doing whatever is necessary to get the job done.

Introversion skills are very powerful. It does not discount the importance of developed extroversion skills to establish connections. When you connect about people and show concern for them, they will do the same thing for you. That's incredibly important in any work environment. Like it or not, at some point you have to work with another person. You have to call someone to ask them to do something for you.

My suggestion to the OP is to find an extroverted mentor. Someone you have to closely work with, someone who you think is "dumber" than you, you can tell when he/she says something. I guarantee if you combine your introversion skills with his/her extroversion skills, the whole will be greater than the sum of it's parts.

I'm sure it's incredibly hard to hear, but you have to start observing how useful people skills are. That can be done when you are working closely with someone who's more extroverted than you. The more you interact with the person, you'll start to see and try how useful people skills really are. It'll take a lot of time, but that's where I suggest starting.
__________________
From the land of the midnight sun
where ice blue roses grow
'long those roads of gold and silver snow
Howlin' wide or moanin low
So many roads I know
So many roads to ease my soul
Brightpaperwarewolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 05:59 PM   #39 (permalink)
 
Just Lurking's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,441



Default

I completely agree with the OP and would add that there are varying degrees of introversion, and that the more introverted a person is, the less likely the "just roll over and take it" or "fake it" advice is going to work for them.

That there is a lack of understanding about it, even here on an SA forum, just adds to the point of how introvert-unfriendly the world really is.

Even the suggested careers here. Be a writer. Well, how are you at sales? Getting your product published involves selling yourself to a publisher. Be a research scientist. Well, how do you plan on funding that? Hope you can handle presentations. How about networking your way into becoming an editor? Yeah, I guess you'd call that a 'hurdle' when you have trouble connecting with your own parents let alone random strangers. Hey, maybe you could find something online to do and not deal with people at all. Oh, but then you're competing with Pakistan, India, etc., which are full of people willing to work for 10 cents an hour.

So, maybe on a scale of 1-10, you'd rate your introversion as a 7 or an 8. Maybe you can get by OK like that. Don't assume, however, that what works for you will work for the 10-out-of-10 guy who's next in line.
__________________

Just Lurking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2011, 06:08 PM   #40 (permalink)
 
Saint Myr's Avatar
 
Status: Imaginary Boy™
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Gender: Male
Age: 25
Posts: 101



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnlightenedElephant View Post
Evolution is proven, there exists evidence that evolution exists (eg. antibiotic resistance).
Lies. One of my other posts completely refutes evolution, but I won't post that here out of respect for the thread.
__________________
"I no longer can resist the haunting of her cries. It was the sweetest melody, like gold and honey dripping from the fingertips of God. I feel the wind against my face from the flapping of her wings. I feel the black and silky tenderness all choking me; but I can almost feel her embrace..." - The Siren's Call
Saint Myr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Everyone seems like such a conformist FitchForce Frustration 34 10-25-2011 09:42 AM
Prince william ,puppet LASVEGAS Society & Culture 29 11-22-2010 11:27 PM
Are we becoming a more introverted or extroverted society? drealm Society & Culture 4 12-22-2009 03:35 PM
I'm a vegetarian weirdo conformist meesha327 Coping With Social Anxiety 11 03-30-2008 10:28 PM
sam puppet? samsam Member Photo Albums 9 05-31-2007 05:50 AM

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:46 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc. User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.