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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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Social Anxiety, O.c.d. and other great things.

Hi, i'm Leonardo, i'm 26, i'm italian (forgive me for my grammar errors) and my life is miserable.
I've always suffered from severe social anxiety. So, of course, i've always been alone for all my life. People who have even only one friend will never understand how it feels and how much i envy (and sometimes hate) them.
Obviously, i've always been tremendously insecure. The fact that i'm really (too much) intelligent (i'm just being honest here, don't think bad of me) is tipycal of my condition i think, and it didn't help. At all.
Then, it's 4 years that i suffer from severe O.c.d. too. It's a complicated form, and it's not easy to describe even in my language... i'll give a shot: I's all based on objects and my interations whit them. Some objects are fine, while others i fell to be "contaminated" (it doesn't mean anything rel, just that i feel sick touching them). So, when i touch the contaminated objects, i feel bad (with various degrees, from a small nuisance to an excruciating crysis).
When that happens, feel confused (i can't think or do things like normal) and sick. I can't describe it better than this. Obviously i've got rituals and such, to cast away these "problems". Obviously they often make me feel worse
For example, while i''m writing, i'm feeling really ****ing sick for an absurd story about contaminated soap (washing hands is my ritual nr.1), and i feel like going mad (1 hour ago i was literally punching myself in the head). It's this suffering that led me to the registration on this forum and the writing of this stuff (it's not easy for me in my conditions...).
I'd have so much to talk about, but now it doesn't come in my mind.
The greatest dream of my life is getting a normal life, having friends and a girlfriend (even a girlfriend only would be good) and after, maybe, even my own family. The problem is that i can't really get along with people.
Obviously i dunno how to act with them, but the greatest problem is that it seems that i can't really manage to know someone i like or that simply doesn't bore or irritate me (maybe i'm just a snob, or maybe i'm just too intelligent and sensible, who knows... i'd choose the second tough). People seem so stupid and frivolous, and i often hate tham for this. When i'm suffering, i compare my life whit theirs and hate them cause they have all that i've always wanted whitout never having to strive. And still, they have the nerves to whine...
Oh, yes, it's 3 years that i'm going to therapy... i like my therapist and she has helped me alot but she cannot free me from my sufferings. I fear that no one could (yeah, yeah, i know that you're telling me "that should be you!").
Also, she's a woman, so i can't talk about sexual stuff with her (not that it's really a matter, me being still virgin and all...).
Maybe i've been confusing and i surely made a lot of errors (again, forgive me), but i hope that my miserable life could be of some interest to someone.
I surely have a lot more stuff to say, but it's not as important and i feel too bad to continue. Maybe i'll write other stuff later if you're interested (wich, again, i hope so).
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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 09:26 AM
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Hi @Leonardo Mattei . Welcome to the forum.

OCD is a distressing problem. I've had to deal with it myself, and it's not fun. There are others on the forum with OCD as well. Out of curiosity, how do you know which objects are contaminated? Do they have specific traits? Are they dirty, or have they come into contact with other dirty objects?

I think it's natural to feel angry when you're suffering from problems like this. You see other people doing things that you can't do and you resent them. But remember that it's the OCD and SA that are your enemies, not other people. Hating other people for having things that you don't have can actually make recovery more difficult because you will resist becoming like those people; ie. you will resist becoming healthy. Forgive them for their good fortune and focus on getting better. It is possible to manage OCD and SA and improve the quality of your life.

What kind of hobbies do you have? I find learning a productive way to take my mind off my problems.

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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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I have lots of hobbies, too many probably: i read a lot (books, mangas etc.), watch tons of anime, movies and tv shows... i'm interested in a lot of stuff like history, psychology (i've started studying it af college this year), and of course literature... it wouldn't bd an wxaggeeation ti call myself an intellectual. I also wrote short tales for a period, and i managed to do it quite well ( i won a "young promises prize" in a competition), but now i can't do it anymore ( i feel like i was only doing it to show off and maje other people know how smart i am, so i think it's not worth spending my energies for that anymore).
For the Ocd: there isn't a phisical quality that make me know if an object is contaminated or not, it's only a matter of feelings and sensations (even if old things seem more dangerous).
I'm really glad that someone answered in this topic, i was fearing that no one would care about the story of my life...
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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 05:31 PM
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I'm very interested in psychology. I have a lot of psychological problems and have spent a lot of time trying to fix them, or cope with them. I've learned a lot about a lot of different things just trying to figure myself out.

I also write and self-publish. That's how I make my money, though I don't make much. I'm also interested in literature, though I don't read as much as I should.

I think self-education can be a good way to build up your self-esteem, and it can sometimes lead to an interesting occupation. It helps me a lot with my writing. I think it's normal to want to "show off" if you've put a lot of work into something. Like with your writing. (Congrats on the award.) You want people to know that you have something of value to offer them.

Thanks for sharing about the OCD. Mine isn't connected to objects or contamination. Mine is mostly restricted to intrusive thoughts, though I do have some rituals. It's interesting to hear about the experiences other people have.

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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 05:41 PM
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OCD makes me crazy. Especially how it manifests in different ways. Everyone I know seems to have some form of it. My mom has this weird thing with symmetry. Like if she puts a picture up on one side of the couch she has to have the exact same picture in the exact same spot on the other side of the couch.

My dad has a weird issue with turning things cockeyed. He literally does this with everything he comes into contact with.

I have an OCD thing with glass. I can't stand a dirty mirror or any kind of glass that has smudges. I also hate when my room is cluttered. Which is a big problem because it kind of just is and there's not much I can do about it so I just sit here and pretty much stew in how much I'm annoyed at my cluttered room all the time.

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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 03:23 AM Thread Starter
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I'm very interested in psychology. I have a lot of psychological problems and have spent a lot of time trying to fix them, or cope with them. I've learned a lot about a lot of different things just trying to figure myself out.

I also write and self-publish. That's how I make my money, though I don't make much. I'm also interested in literature, though I don't read as much as I should.

I think self-education can be a good way to build up your self-esteem, and it can sometimes lead to an interesting occupation. It helps me a lot with my writing. I think it's normal to want to "show off" if you've put a lot of work into something. Like with your writing. (Congrats on the award.) You want people to know that you have something of value to offer them.

Thanks for sharing about the OCD. Mine isn't connected to objects or contamination. Mine is mostly restricted to intrusive thoughts, though I do have some rituals. It's interesting to hear about the experiences other people have.
Nothing i did never managed to boost my self esteem. I know rationally that i've lots of qualities, i'm very smart and sensible, i'm tremendously intellectually curious, i'm a kind person (i think), i'm not even bad looking (that's i've been told, not that it's a quality tough), but inside me i've always felt like a patetical loser, cause i'm weak, i can't manage to control my fear of the others, i can't be assertive, i'm terrified of human relationship, i "never did nothing good with my life" etc. etc. Even my O.c.d. i blame on my terrible weakness...
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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 05:43 AM
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Nothing i did never managed to boost my self esteem. I know rationally that i've lots of qualities, i'm very smart and sensible, i'm tremendously intellectually curious, i'm a kind person (i think), i'm not even bad looking (that's i've been told, not that it's a quality tough), but inside me i've always felt like a patetical loser, cause i'm weak, i can't manage to control my fear of the others, i can't be assertive, i'm terrified of human relationship, i "never did nothing good with my life" etc. etc. Even my O.c.d. i blame on my terrible weakness...
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Self-esteem is a complicated subject. It has a lot to do with the way you think about yourself. In general, the more you have of a positive trait, or the more you've accomplished, the better you feel about yourself. But that's only a general trend. Improving yourself can help, but it isn't always enough. Plenty of rich, famous celebrities, for example, have terrible self-esteem and end up killing themselves or destroying their lives through drugs, etc.

Self-esteem disorders typically start in childhood (though they can start at any time). They revolve around ideas that you have about yourself; for example, that you're worthless, ugly, unlovable, stupid, etc., or that you don't deserve to feel good about yourself unless your behavior is "perfect". Children sometimes come to believe these things about themselves, either because their parents tell them these things (ie. verbal abuse), or because they incorrectly infer from their parents' behavior that their parents feel that way about them (eg. their parents always ignore them, or they're overly critical).

If you believe this deep down, then no matter how much you accomplish you will never feel good about yourself. You will build your identity around these self-concepts, and over time you will accumulate more and more "evidence" that these thoughts are true (because you're alert to any sign that they might be true). You need to understand that these negative self-concepts are a result of abuse or childhood misunderstanding and replace them with healthier, more realistic concepts. A person can make mistakes and do bad things, but no person is truly worthless or unlovable.

I used to have terrible self-esteem, but I did manage to correct it. It is possible to fix. The hardest part is convincing yourself that you're worthy of love (and self-love) when every fiber of your being is telling you otherwise. You do have a right to love yourself and feel good about yourself, regardless of your problems and limitations.

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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 05:50 AM
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Sorry to hear that your life is this way. I also have both social anxiety and ocd's, and i suspect that i might have bpd and adhd. I also used to have an extremely low self esteem to the point where i couldnt stand going near anyone. I can tell you though that ocd's can be stopped, i know its very hard to but ocd's are just in your head and you can stop ocd's by ignoring ocd's. It worked with me, i've had ocd's for many years and i also had Pure O ocd's but i cured my ocd's just by ignoring them, its very hard to do but you have to realize that ocd's are not real anc that normal people arent so scared of germs(or other ocd related things). And good self esteem can come with when your life starts getting better. Also, take steps to overcome your social anxiety by practicing to talk to people, and with small steps you'll eventually reach your goal of a better, happier life
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Self-esteem is a complicated subject. It has a lot to do with the way you think about yourself. In general, the more you have of a positive trait, or the more you've accomplished, the better you feel about yourself. But that's only a general trend. Improving yourself can help, but it isn't always enough. Plenty of rich, famous celebrities, for example, have terrible self-esteem and end up killing themselves or destroying their lives through drugs, etc.

Self-esteem disorders typically start in childhood (though they can start at any time). They revolve around ideas that you have about yourself; for example, that you're worthless, ugly, unlovable, stupid, etc., or that you don't deserve to feel good about yourself unless your behavior is "perfect". Children sometimes come to believe these things about themselves, either because their parents tell them these things (ie. verbal abuse), or because they incorrectly infer from their parents' behavior that their parents feel that way about them (eg. their parents always ignore them, or they're overly critical).

If you believe this deep down, then no matter how much you accomplish you will never feel good about yourself. You will build your identity around these self-concepts, and over time you will accumulate more and more "evidence" that these thoughts are true (because you're alert to any sign that they might be true). You need to understand that these negative self-concepts are a result of abuse or childhood misunderstanding and replace them with healthier, more realistic concepts. A person can make mistakes and do bad things, but no person is truly worthless or unlovable.

I used to have terrible self-esteem, but I did manage to correct it. It is possible to fix. The hardest part is convincing yourself that you're worthy of love (and self-love) when every fiber of your being is telling you otherwise. You do have a right to love yourself and feel good about yourself, regardless of your problems and limitations.
How did you manage to correct it? Please telle me, i've tried everything, and its been worthless...
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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-14-2017, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry to hear that your life is this way. I also have both social anxiety and ocd's, and i suspect that i might have bpd and adhd. I also used to have an extremely low self esteem to the point where i couldnt stand going near anyone. I can tell you though that ocd's can be stopped, i know its very hard to but ocd's are just in your head and you can stop ocd's by ignoring ocd's. It worked with me, i've had ocd's for many years and i also had Pure O ocd's but i cured my ocd's just by ignoring them, its very hard to do but you have to realize that ocd's are not real anc that normal people arent so scared of germs(or other ocd related things). And good self esteem can come with when your life starts getting better. Also, take steps to overcome your social anxiety by practicing to talk to people, and with small steps you'll eventually reach your goal of a better, happier life
I know it, but the biggest problem is to actively fight it. Every time i try to resist ocd impulses i end up feeling terrible, often ruining my days (it happened this morning). I can't sacrifice my social performance and my daily routine for an hypotetical future healing...
Another important factor that makes me hard to fight it is my loneliness. I have no one to talk to when i'm feeling sick cause of the ocd, and suffering (a lot) in silence it's just the worst. So, obviously, i wish to avoid this situation if i can. I know it's wrong, but i'm just weak. Terribly weak. I can't find any strenght inside myself...
P.s. God, my keyboard is terribly contaminated, i barely manage to write in comprehensible english -.-
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 07:44 AM
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How did you manage to correct it? Please telle me, i've tried everything, and its been worthless...
It's a bit complicated. I'm working on a description of the process, so far as I understand it, and am considering creating a thread about it. (What follows is just an introduction to a much larger subject.) I think the health of a person's self-esteem hinges on your ability to see why certain thoughts (that inevitably lead to poor self-esteem) are invalid. It's one thing for me to say: "thought X is invalid" and quite a different thing for you to see that it's invalid.

For example: if I told you that your gf was cheating on you, but she had never given you a single reason to doubt her fidelity, at most it might make you somewhat doubtful; you might start to pay closer attention to her behavior and look for evidence that she is. But your behavior won't otherwise change. In all likelihood, you will assume that I'm mistaken, or that I'm intentionally lying to you.

When a therapist explains to you that your thinking is invalid, this is typically the situation you find yourself in because your beliefs are absolutely convincing. (They wouldn't be beliefs if they weren't.) You have a ton of evidence that your belief is correct (ie. that your gf is being faithful) and no evidence that the therapist's claim is correct (ie. that she's cheating on you). More importantly, you have a strong, vested interest in holding onto your belief (you want to keep your gf); giving it up would be very painful and force you to reorganize your entire life (you'd have to confront her and probably break up with her). The negative beliefs that we have about ourselves are like this belief in your gf's fidelity and are very tenacious for this reason.

When I tell you that it's possible to love yourself, and to feel respect for yourself, no matter how "inadequate" you are, or how little success you've had, you are probably going to reject it. You will bring up all the evidence you've collected over the years that proves that you are not worthy of self-love or self-respect. ("I have this negative trait, I've never done this thing everyone else has done", etc.) At best, you might grant that it's possible theoretically, but this theoretical possibility won't have any impact on your life. You might wonder about it a bit, and try to understand where I'm coming from, but you have already concluded, based on your evidence/beliefs/feelings that in your case (even if it's possible for others) it's not possible for you personally to feel self-love and self-respect for the reasons you've given.

If at some point you suddenly saw for yourself (ie. had a sudden insight into the truth of what I'm saying) it could have a profound effect on how you think about yourself, the same way that catching your gf in bed with someone else would convince you that she's being unfaithful in a way that my telling you she's unfaithful could never do. All of a sudden the proof of the claim would be indisputable, and it would completely alter your life.

You have to have this sort of insight into the falseness of certain kinds of beliefs that are responsible for maintaining your unhealthy self-esteem. Like the belief that you're "terribly weak", and the underlying belief that "people who are terribly weak are not worthy of love and respect". This underlying belief is the actual belief that makes the first belief destructive for your self-esteem. There is a belief underlying this belief as well: "some people are worthy of love and respect, but some aren't". This structure of beliefs is what maintains your self-loathing. If you replaced the bottom belief with: "everyone, regardless of their inadequacies, is worthy of love and respect", then the next belief: "people who are terribly weak are not worthy of love and respect" would become invalid and the top belief "I'm terribly weak" would no longer have a negative impact on your self-esteem. It would just become a phrase to describe yourself, but describing yourself in those terms wouldn't make you hate yourself. (Ideally, though, you would probably want to temper that belief by making it more realistic and factual.)

But again, it's not enough for me to tell you that you can feel self-love and self-respect, no matter what your limitations or failures are. You have to see the truth of it for yourself. When you see the truth, you will no longer hate yourself, and you will have respect for yourself, even as you continue to struggle with OCD, SA, etc. Healthy self-esteem is fundamental to psychological health, but it won't automatically cure other problems, just like eating right and exercising won't automatically cure complex diseases or disorders.

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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-15-2017, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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It's a bit complicated. I'm working on a description of the process, so far as I understand it, and am considering creating a thread about it. (What follows is just an introduction to a much larger subject.) I think the health of a person's self-esteem hinges on your ability to see why certain thoughts (that inevitably lead to poor self-esteem) are invalid. It's one thing for me to say: "thought X is invalid" and quite a different thing for you to see that it's invalid.

For example: if I told you that your gf was cheating on you, but she had never given you a single reason to doubt her fidelity, at most it might make you somewhat doubtful; you might start to pay closer attention to her behavior and look for evidence that she is. But your behavior won't otherwise change. In all likelihood, you will assume that I'm mistaken, or that I'm intentionally lying to you.

When a therapist explains to you that your thinking is invalid, this is typically the situation you find yourself in because your beliefs are absolutely convincing. (They wouldn't be beliefs if they weren't.) You have a ton of evidence that your belief is correct (ie. that your gf is being faithful) and no evidence that the therapist's claim is correct (ie. that she's cheating on you). More importantly, you have a strong, vested interest in holding onto your belief (you want to keep your gf); giving it up would be very painful and force you to reorganize your entire life (you'd have to confront her and probably break up with her). The negative beliefs that we have about ourselves are like this belief in your gf's fidelity and are very tenacious for this reason.

When I tell you that it's possible to love yourself, and to feel respect for yourself, no matter how "inadequate" you are, or how little success you've had, you are probably going to reject it. You will bring up all the evidence you've collected over the years that proves that you are not worthy of self-love or self-respect. ("I have this negative trait, I've never done this thing everyone else has done", etc.) At best, you might grant that it's possible theoretically, but this theoretical possibility won't have any impact on your life. You might wonder about it a bit, and try to understand where I'm coming from, but you have already concluded, based on your evidence/beliefs/feelings that in your case (even if it's possible for others) it's not possible for you personally to feel self-love and self-respect for the reasons you've given.

If at some point you suddenly saw for yourself (ie. had a sudden insight into the truth of what I'm saying) it could have a profound effect on how you think about yourself, the same way that catching your gf in bed with someone else would convince you that she's being unfaithful in a way that my telling you she's unfaithful could never do. All of a sudden the proof of the claim would be indisputable, and it would completely alter your life.

You have to have this sort of insight into the falseness of certain kinds of beliefs that are responsible for maintaining your unhealthy self-esteem. Like the belief that you're "terribly weak", and the underlying belief that "people who are terribly weak are not worthy of love and respect". This underlying belief is the actual belief that makes the first belief destructive for your self-esteem. There is a belief underlying this belief as well: "some people are worthy of love and respect, but some aren't". This structure of beliefs is what maintains your self-loathing. If you replaced the bottom belief with: "everyone, regardless of their inadequacies, is worthy of love and respect", then the next belief: "people who are terribly weak are not worthy of love and respect" would become invalid and the top belief "I'm terribly weak" would no longer have a negative impact on your self-esteem. It would just become a phrase to describe yourself, but describing yourself in those terms wouldn't make you hate yourself. (Ideally, though, you would probably want to temper that belief by making it more realistic and factual.)

But again, it's not enough for me to tell you that you can feel self-love and self-respect, no matter what your limitations or failures are. You have to see the truth of it for yourself. When you see the truth, you will no longer hate yourself, and you will have respect for yourself, even as you continue to struggle with OCD, SA, etc. Healthy self-esteem is fundamental to psychological health, but it won't automatically cure other problems, just like eating right and exercising won't automatically cure complex diseases or disorders.

How do i get that insight?
The fact is, i don't think every persone deserves love and respect. I don't think mean and stupid people deserve it (i know i can come out as a snob, but i really think that stupidity is seriously dangerous and it's ruining the world, so i hate idiots). For the weaks, it's not as i think they don't deserve love and respect. It's just that the society and the majority of people think that way. I don't think you can deny it... how could someone ignore what the world thinks of him?
And then, shouldn't i try to become stronger?
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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 05:40 AM
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How do i get that insight?
The fact is, i don't think every persone deserves love and respect. I don't think mean and stupid people deserve it (i know i can come out as a snob, but i really think that stupidity is seriously dangerous and it's ruining the world, so i hate idiots). For the weaks, it's not as i think they don't deserve love and respect. It's just that the society and the majority of people think that way. I don't think you can deny it... how could someone ignore what the world thinks of him?
And then, shouldn't i try to become stronger?
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This is why I said originally that it's a very complex subject. You have to make a lot of distinctions that people don't ordinarily make. For example, when I say that everyone deserves love, I don't mean that everyone deserves to be liked, or that we should approve of their behaviors, or that they shouldn't be locked up if they're dangerous, etc. What I mean is that they deserve to be treated compassionately, because even awful people got to be awful largely for reasons they had no control over. If you were badly abused as a child, you may grow up to be an abuser yourself because you see the world through the lens of your abuse; but no child starts out evil. They're made evil, through their experiences, or through unhealthy patterns of thinking.

Loving those people doesn't mean liking them, and it doesn't mean absolving them of responsibility for their actions; what it means is recognizing that people don't set out to become evil for the sake of being evil and treating those people like human beings despite their actions. Of course you can argue that they shouldn't be treated like human beings, but then you're also arguing in favor of the very beliefs that maintain your own poor self-esteem. That's your choice; if you want to maintain your anger at those people, you must pay the price of maintaining anger at yourself because you will apply the same standards to yourself. But it's not necessary; it's a choice that you're making.

There is nothing actually preventing you from feeling self-love and self-worth except a set of internalized rules; you decide when to allow yourself to feel love and worth based on those rules; it's just that most people aren't consciously aware of this process. If you had unconditional love for yourself, you would feel self-love all of the time; it's because your love is conditional that you feel self-hatred and suffer from poor self-esteem.

Again, love isn't the same as liking or approving. I love myself, but I don't like everything about myself. And the things I don't like I try to change. But I don't wait until I've made the change to love myself. By loving myself unconditionally, I have the permission to change (if you hate yourself, you often want to punish yourself, and one of the ways to do that is by not giving yourself permission to change), and the energy to change, because my energy is not bound up in self-hatred. I am on my own team, encouraging myself, rooting for myself, treating myself like a good parent, or a good coach would, to be the best person that I can be. If you hate yourself, you will be in conflict with yourself and you will act in self-destructive ways to punish yourself for failing to live up to your own standards. All of that self-anger and punishment delays your progress and makes it harder for you to get better.

And yes, loving yourself doesn't mean that anyone else will; you're absolutely right that the world won't change just because you do. Most people despise weakness and stupidity, and if you're weak and stupid, you will experience their contempt. But unconditional self-love gives you the strength to endure their hatred. The vast majority of the world's population would prefer that people such as myself not exist; if I didn't have excellent self-esteem and the strength to reject the opinions of the majority, I would have killed myself a long, long time ago. Unconditional self-love is a source of power; you can reject it if you want to, so that you can continue to judge and blame others, but you will make your own life more difficult by doing so.

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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 06:40 AM Thread Starter
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I don't get the distinction you make betwwen loving and liking others. Loving is litterally "liking a lot", so i don't get your point.
Also, i didn't understand if it's a bad thing for you the fact that i don't like (and maybe hate) stupid people or not.
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 03:58 AM
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I don't get the distinction you make betwwen loving and liking others. Loving is litterally "liking a lot", so i don't get your point.
Also, i didn't understand if it's a bad thing for you the fact that i don't like (and maybe hate) stupid people or not.
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No, it's not that straightforward. This is where language and our habitual way of thinking and speaking can interfere with our ability to solve our problems.

You can love someone without liking everything they do. By love I mean: caring about someone's well-being; trying to understand where they're coming from; and having compassion for them. It's possible to be loving toward someone without liking them. And it's possible to like someone without loving them.

You may enjoy someone's company without caring about their well-being, and you may care about someone's well-being without liking their company. Both situations are very common. We may like our acquaintances without lifting a finger to help them and sacrifice a great deal to help someone in our family even though we can't stand them. The same can be said about ourselves. It's possible to like ourselves without truly loving ourselves: we may think we're talented, smart, interesting, etc., and still act self-destructively; and we may love ourselves without liking ourselves: we may feel incompetent, stupid, dull, etc., and still care for our own well-being.

More, we don't tend to like or dislike an entire person. We tend to like some things about them, and dislike other things. We may like our friend and yet wish they didn't have an annoying habit. The same can be true of ourselves; we may like that we're smart but dislike that we're weak. If you hate yourself for having a trait that you dislike, then you're not being fair to yourself, because you also have positive traits.

You can love yourself and still dislike having a negative trait; there are many things about myself that I do not like and that I work hard to correct. When you love yourself, though, you will act freely to correct those traits you don't like; if you hate yourself, you may act self-destructively instead of acting to correct the traits you don't like. Self-love is always better than self-hatred; when you love yourself, you will always act in your own self-interest, and you will have more energy to correct the parts of yourself that you don't like. When you hate yourself, you may spend part of your time trying to correct your flaws to avoid the pain of self-hatred, but when you fail to correct those flaws, you will attack yourself and waste a considerable amount of energy punishing yourself ... when you could have been working to improve yourself.

You don't have to like stupid people. You don't have to like anyone or any particular trait. There are lots (and lots and lots) of things I don't like about people. But I still do my best to be supportive and help them. If someone is bullying another person, I won't hesitate to step in and defend the person being attacked. I will use force to defend them. But my goal isn't to harm the bully; it's to render the bully powerless to inflict harm to whatever extent I am able to do so. Love is not weakness, and it's not permissiveness. If you believe another person's stupidity is going to lead to harm, you can step in and prevent them from acting. A loving person does not allow harm to come to others if they can prevent it.

But that includes allowing harm to come to ourselves. People with unhealthy self-esteem tend to spend a lot of time inflicting pain on themselves for failing to live up to their own standards. But this is really no different than harming anyone else. Loving yourself means acting as your own guardian, mentor, and friend. A good friend is honest and tells his friend when he's being an idiot and acting self-destructively but he doesn't punish his friend; he tries to help him.

Self-hatred and unrealistic standards will lead to anxiety (fear of self-punishment; fear of failure) and that anxiety will fuel your disorders (SA, OCD, etc.).

tu me rends folle
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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 07:07 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by truant View Post
No, it's not that straightforward. This is where language and our habitual way of thinking and speaking can interfere with our ability to solve our problems.

You can love someone without liking everything they do. By love I mean: caring about someone's well-being; trying to understand where they're coming from; and having compassion for them. It's possible to be loving toward someone without liking them. And it's possible to like someone without loving them.

You may enjoy someone's company without caring about their well-being, and you may care about someone's well-being without liking their company. Both situations are very common. We may like our acquaintances without lifting a finger to help them and sacrifice a great deal to help someone in our family even though we can't stand them. The same can be said about ourselves. It's possible to like ourselves without truly loving ourselves: we may think we're talented, smart, interesting, etc., and still act self-destructively; and we may love ourselves without liking ourselves: we may feel incompetent, stupid, dull, etc., and still care for our own well-being.

More, we don't tend to like or dislike an entire person. We tend to like some things about them, and dislike other things. We may like our friend and yet wish they didn't have an annoying habit. The same can be true of ourselves; we may like that we're smart but dislike that we're weak. If you hate yourself for having a trait that you dislike, then you're not being fair to yourself, because you also have positive traits.

You can love yourself and still dislike having a negative trait; there are many things about myself that I do not like and that I work hard to correct. When you love yourself, though, you will act freely to correct those traits you don't like; if you hate yourself, you may act self-destructively instead of acting to correct the traits you don't like. Self-love is always better than self-hatred; when you love yourself, you will always act in your own self-interest, and you will have more energy to correct the parts of yourself that you don't like. When you hate yourself, you may spend part of your time trying to correct your flaws to avoid the pain of self-hatred, but when you fail to correct those flaws, you will attack yourself and waste a considerable amount of energy punishing yourself ... when you could have been working to improve yourself.

You don't have to like stupid people. You don't have to like anyone or any particular trait. There are lots (and lots and lots) of things I don't like about people. But I still do my best to be supportive and help them. If someone is bullying another person, I won't hesitate to step in and defend the person being attacked. I will use force to defend them. But my goal isn't to harm the bully; it's to render the bully powerless to inflict harm to whatever extent I am able to do so. Love is not weakness, and it's not permissiveness. If you believe another person's stupidity is going to lead to harm, you can step in and prevent them from acting. A loving person does not allow harm to come to others if they can prevent it.

But that includes allowing harm to come to ourselves. People with unhealthy self-esteem tend to spend a lot of time inflicting pain on themselves for failing to live up to their own standards. But this is really no different than harming anyone else. Loving yourself means acting as your own guardian, mentor, and friend. A good friend is honest and tells his friend when he's being an idiot and acting self-destructively but he doesn't punish his friend; he tries to help him.

Self-hatred and unrealistic standards will lead to anxiety (fear of self-punishment; fear of failure) and that anxiety will fuel your disorders (SA, OCD, etc.).
You're a great person, but i dont i can be like you. People always treated me like **** and i will never forget that and their indifference towards me. Ican't even trust them, cause i know for sure that sooner or later they're gonna reject me and kick me out of their life or group for the stupidest reason and without thinking two seconds about it.
I don't know if i will manage to stop hating them for that. I don't know if i even want to.
How could i love everyone if they never even tried to love me?
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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 07:21 AM
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I know how you feel man. I've tried everything to help with my anxiety. I've achieved academically, I've read psychology books, I've slept with different women. I've achieved many personal goals. I guess you can find a woman but even then you get bored. I like you find others incredibly boring and I also somewhat envy and hate them too. They take so little effort and get everything they want in life. Where as it takes me months to learn new skills. Some days I absolutely love life but other days you just want the world to burn with you. But hey, just embrace it right? Hate everyone, hate life, hate scumbags and all the backstabbers and reject the good people. LOL. Also, do people care? Can you remember the last time someone ever genuinely smiled at you? Heck, can you remember the last time you felt comfortable around others? I know I can't. All I do is manipulate others for my own personal gain and then I just feel empty. It's an endless cycle of torment. I mean sure, I could be genuine and honest and screwed over.. I wish I was a simpleton sometimes. That I could just be brainwashed and that I didn't see every angle and plan so damn much haha.
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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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I know how you feel man. I've tried everything to help with my anxiety. I've achieved academically, I've read psychology books, I've slept with different women. I've achieved many personal goals. I guess you can find a woman but even then you get bored. I like you find others incredibly boring and I also somewhat envy and hate them too. They take so little effort and get everything they want in life. Where as it takes me months to learn new skills. Some days I absolutely love life but other days you just want the world to burn with you. But hey, just embrace it right? Hate everyone, hate life, hate scumbags and all the backstabbers and reject the good people. LOL. Also, do people care? Can you remember the last time someone ever genuinely smiled at you? Heck, can you remember the last time you felt comfortable around others? I know I can't. All I do is manipulate others for my own personal gain and then I just feel empty. It's an endless cycle of torment. I mean sure, I could be genuine and honest and screwed over.. I wish I was a simpleton sometimes. That I could just be brainwashed and that I didn't see every angle and plan so damn much haha.
I never even been with a girl for more than an hour ( i kissed one, but we were drunk and it was pathetic as ****). As i'd kill someone to sleep with a girl i'd like, i'm sure i'd be so anxious about it that i'd have an hearth attack.
I've even been with a cute one half an hour this morning (we had to do a thing for the volleyball course i'm attending) and all i could do is to think how much weak and pathetic i must've looked at her eyes.
Hating everyone is stupid too, tough, it just a patethical way to live and an excuse to not improve. Not that i think i'll manage to do it...
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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 07:46 AM
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Haha and that's assuming you can get it up too! Haha, anxiety needs to be lowered or you're on a one way ticket to ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION BBY
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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardo Mattei View Post
You're a great person, but i dont i can be like you. People always treated me like **** and i will never forget that and their indifference towards me. Ican't even trust them, cause i know for sure that sooner or later they're gonna reject me and kick me out of their life or group for the stupidest reason and without thinking two seconds about it.
I don't know if i will manage to stop hating them for that. I don't know if i even want to.
How could i love everyone if they never even tried to love me?
I was bullied badly in school. I've been beaten multiple times. I was taken out into a field and beaten by a group of guys. They told me they'd hurt my friend if I told anyone or defended myself. I've had my own life threatened repeatedly. People told me to kill myself. I've been robbed, exploited, and cheated on. I know what it's like to be treated horribly.

I'm not telling you you have to forgive anyone else to get better, because you don't. But you have to forgive yourself for being weak, for having OCD and SA and any other problems you have, because if you don't forgive yourself for being human you will never recover. If you hold onto this belief that people who have flaws should be hated, you will continue to hate and attack yourself for having flaws. You can see that, can't you?

You attack yourself because you believe you deserve it. If you fail at something, you punish yourself. If you see someone you're attracted to and don't talk to her, you see your own weakness and attack yourself for being weak; if you do summon the courage to talk to her and she rejects you, you see your own failure and attack yourself for failing.

Your fear of this self-inflicted punishment makes you afraid to try things you might fail at. Then, the further you fall behind, the more you punish yourself, and the more afraid you will be to try to do the things you need to do to get better. You're doing more damage to yourself by holding onto this belief -- that you need to be punished for being weak, and for failing -- than other people have done to you. You got that belief from other people -- from your parents, your peers, culture, wherever -- and they do punish you for being weak and for failing, but they are wrong to punish you, and you don't deserve to be punished. I don't deserve to be punished for being what I am; but I am punished. People hate, despise, mock and ridicule me. And if I agreed with other people that I deserve to be punished, I would have killed myself a long time ago. I almost did kill myself because I thought I deserved to die. But I rejected their beliefs, and now no one has the power to make me hate myself.

You don't have to punish yourself. You're choosing to punish yourself, because that's what you've been taught to do. But you can forgive yourself instead. You can love yourself no matter in what ways you are weak or fail. You can love yourself even if not a single other person in the world loves you. Loving yourself is a much more effective tool for change than hating and punishing yourself, because you will no longer fear yourself and be divided against yourself. Success is the best revenge; the best way to get back at the people who hate and despise you is to reject their opinion of you and love yourself despite what they say.

You asked me how I fixed my self-esteem; this is how I've done it. It's not easy, because it requires you to think in ways that go contrary to your experience, your education, and the opinions of others. You must forgive yourself for being human so that you don't fear yourself. So that you have the courage to try and the strength to withstand failure. But this isn't how most people get their self-esteem.

Most people feel good about themselves because they have had the good fortune to be born rich, or attractive, or smart, or popular, and to have grown up in supportive environments. Their self-esteem is based on their success and the good opinions of other people. That's why the usual advice for correcting self-esteem is to improve yourself -- so that you can be successful and win the approval of other people. But that kind of self-esteem will always be fragile.

My recommendation is for you to do both: to continue to work on improving yourself in whatever way possible -- by educating yourself, by writing, by working out -- anything you can do to make yourself feel better about yourself. But always forgive yourself for your mistakes and limitations. You never chose to be weak or afraid, you never chose to have OCD or SA; these are things that happened to you. Give yourself permission to be imperfect. Your ability to tolerate and forgive other people is just a side-effect of this perspective. You don't have to forgive anyone, but you might find that you no longer care about them anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyH View Post
I could be genuine and honest and screwed over.. I wish I was a simpleton sometimes. That I could just be brainwashed and that I didn't see every angle and plan so damn much haha.
I am genuine and honest, but I don't let people take advantage of me. If someone is imposing on me, I tell them, and I refuse to do what they ask. That is genuine and honest behavior. People who let other people push them around are not genuine and honest people because they're not telling other people how they really feel.

I am an extremely skeptical person; I assume most people are attempting to manipulate me in one way or another, and I'm very good at spotting their manipulations. Being 'good' has nothing to do with weakness or stupidity, though they often go together. Many people believe that they must be selfish and exploit other people to get anywhere in life. But they're wrong. And sooner or later they find they're no better than the people they hate. And they will end up hating and despising themselves.

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