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Old 08-17-2013, 05:57 PM   #41 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Overthinker80 View Post
Is there some brand of Feminism that is unique to Sweden?

Is there more feminism in Sweden than elsewhere?

This forum is the first I've heard of "Swedish feminists" and everyone seems to be making a big deal about them.
http://www.youtube.com/v/9HwfVPmFNlg
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:06 PM   #42 (permalink)
 
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lol @ the gender neutral pronoun this is just insane.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:06 PM   #43 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by au Lait View Post
It only mentions that he is a member of a party that has ties to socialism and feminism. Most left/liberal leaning groups do. The left party is not a strictly feminist group/organization.
Liberalism isn't tied to socialism or feminism in Scandinavia.
Neither the more classical liberal parties nor the social liberal parties view themselves as feminist - though since it's Scandinavia, they are mostly all some form of social liberal.

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Originally Posted by au Lait View Post
The motion being proposed is not an issue related to feminism, and in no way is forcing men to sit down while peeing some ~feminist agenda~.
...
Journalists often use deceptive language in their articles as a way to generate views. The op has done it as well with the title of this thread by calling the man a feminist. Maybe Hansen is maybe, he isn't. But that has **** all to do with his proposal. Of course the mere mention of the word works up a frenzy amongst those of you who harbor a bizarrely disproportionate fear and paranoia concerning feminism.

And look, it worked. You fell for it. Next time read before you jump to conclusions.
How do you know this proposal has nothing to do with him being a feminist? How do you know he doesn't relate it to feminism?
It seems rather strange that you can tell that from those articles.

Commenting on the controversy the proposal has caused internationally, he said:
Quote:
"It shows the real state of gender equality. If you question male norms, you're called an idiot."

...

The proposal was filed last Spring and is now pending.

"It will probably be rejected, but it has already achieved its goal. We made it to see how people would react and to prompt a debate regarding the questions of gender*."
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/regionalt/...as-i-frankrike

*The Swedish word "könsfrågan" literally means "the gender question" and is often used to mean questions of gender identity and gender differences in the gender equality debate.

So yes, it does very much seem he sees this proposal as an expression of gender equality. And given that his party adopts a feminist perspective on gender equality issues (as well as many other issues), it does very much seem this is an expression of his feminism and not completely unrelated to it.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:31 PM   #44 (permalink)
 
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I have to say that I really hate urinals, and always have done. I use cubicles in public toilets exclusively, unless they're all full. But I don't sit down. I just put the seat up and be careful about it.

Urinals are just horrible though, because notwithstanding any anxiety you might have about getting your private parts out in public, sometimes you need to go, but you can't go straight away. And it's horrendously awkward standing there, not being able to pee for ages. You can develop a complex, like "oh god I hope I can pee straight away this time", which makes it even harder to pee. Also, it's just stupid to have a line of people looking dead straight ahead, at the wall, to make absolutely certain that nobody looks at anyone else... or that anyone else thinks you might have looked at them.

If somebody suggested just banning urinals, without all this stuff about banning peeing while standing, I might even be in favour of it. But not really, as long as there are always cubicles for people who want privacy.

Like somebody else said though, a ban on peeing while standing up would be impossible to enforce anyway. That said, it probably does make more sense, and *would* be more hygienic, for everyone to pee while sitting on the toilet. I get tired of wiping up after my dad, because he doesn't seem to notice that it's gone everywhere. I just don't think this is a major social issue that needs to be urgently addressed, lol.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:15 AM   #45 (permalink)
 
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It would only result in folks wiping the piss off toilet seats of the many that wouldn't respect the rule. Also you would have to queue a lot longer.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:09 AM   #46 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by tennislover84 View Post
Urinals are just horrible though, because notwithstanding any anxiety you might have about getting your private parts out in public, sometimes you need to go, but you can't go straight away. And it's horrendously awkward standing there, not being able to pee for ages. You can develop a complex, like "oh god I hope I can pee straight away this time", which makes it even harder to pee.
This made me laugh a little, because I have experienced exactly what you have described. And it is terribly awkward and for that reason I use the cubicles. You're not alone brother.

On the topic at hand this is just stupidity, its feminism just gone to far. I have no issues with equal rights, equal pay and etc for both genders. What I do have issue with is when feminists or I guess to the other side of the scale misogynists just pull ridiculous crap that this. The logistics of actually making this law work should it ever get passed is just pure idiocy, l et alone the idea itself.
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:33 AM   #47 (permalink)
 
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The Left Party's Viggo Hansen, a substitute member of the county council and the man responsible for the proposal, wants the office toilets to be genderless and as a result, is pushing for the "sit-down only" requirement.

He insisted, however, that the move doesn't represent political meddling in people's bathroom habits.

"That's not what we're doing. We want to give men the option of going into a clean toilet," he told Sveriges Television (SVT)
So unisex bathrooms mean equality? Of course!

Both sexes using toilets the same way? It's EQUALITY!
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:51 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by au Lait View Post
a) The person behind the proposal, Viggo Hansen, is a man. And no where does it actually state that he is a feminist. It only mentions that he is a member of a party that has ties to socialism and feminism. Most left/liberal leaning groups do. The left party is not a strictly feminist group/organization. The motion being proposed is not an issue related to feminism, and in no way is forcing men to sit down while peeing some ~feminist agenda~.
I know 'hen' is a man. Men can be feminists, I'm sure you're aware. He is a member of a party that has ties to feminism as you stated. It is a known feminist topic. He sure sounds like a feminist.

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b) The proposal relates to one specific office (not every toilet in Sweden) in which Hansen wants to implement a unisex bathroom policy. Therefore enforcing a no-peeing on the seats mandate would be a simple courtesy to those who have to sit down, as well as to serve obvious hygienic purposes. The idea of labeling separate toilets for men who wish to stand is also mentioned in one article
The proposal relates (since you used the term) to another area in Norway, where he got the idea from. Ideas and ideologies spread. It's a political issue now. That is the situation.

Peeing sitting down for males is not more hygenic. You come into unnecessary contact with a toilet seat which you otherwise would not have. A toilet seat which has come into contact with dozens, hundreds etc number of peoples backside before hand. You're potentially coming into contact with millions of bacteria each time you sit.
The risk of toilet water, ones own urine spraying back is increased, being closer to the urinal water - for men who can pee properly with proper manners.
You are lower to the toilet bowl and flushing area. Each time someone flushes a toilet there is a cloud of bacteria which rises above head height, even with the lid down when flushed this escapes. You are more exposed to this cloud when sitting.
You risk greater penile contact with the toilet seat, the underside of it etc, as one now has to pee sitting down. You also risk higher forearm contact with the toilet seat.

It's not more hygenic at all. Sorry for some of the details there is that's offensive to anyone.

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Originally Posted by au Lait View Post
Maybe Hansen is a feminist, maybe he isn't. But that has **** all to do with his proposal.
He is a feminist. It is political. It has potentially everything to do with it.

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Originally Posted by au Lait View Post
bizarrely disproportionate fear and paranoia concerning feminism.
'I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honourable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.'

- Actor, academic feminist, lecturer at universities.

'I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig'

- Well known feminist activist, multiple feminist literature author, lecturer

Very main stream, at the top feminists which have a great deal of influence in society. It's not bizarre to criticise a hate movement and it's not disproportionate.
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Old 08-18-2013, 06:02 AM   #49 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by tennislover84 View Post
I have to say that I really hate urinals, and always have done. I use cubicles in public toilets exclusively, unless they're all full. But I don't sit down.
http://www.youtube.com/v/gbYSPVR55Gs
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:16 AM   #50 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Overthinker80 View Post
Is there some brand of Feminism that is unique to Sweden?

Is there more feminism in Sweden than elsewhere?

This forum is the first I've heard of "Swedish feminists" and everyone seems to be making a big deal about them.
This forum is the first I've heard of a lot of things. But now I talk about them on a regular basis.

Sad.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:27 AM   #51 (permalink)
 
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I always urinate sitting down because I feel more comfortable doing so. But urine is sterile, and these women seem to think about penises too much.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tennislover84 View Post
I have to say that I really hate urinals, and always have done. I use cubicles in public toilets exclusively, unless they're all full. But I don't sit down. I just put the seat up and be careful about it.

Urinals are just horrible though, because notwithstanding any anxiety you might have about getting your private parts out in public, sometimes you need to go, but you can't go straight away. And it's horrendously awkward standing there, not being able to pee for ages. You can develop a complex, like "oh god I hope I can pee straight away this time", which makes it even harder to pee. Also, it's just stupid to have a line of people looking dead straight ahead, at the wall, to make absolutely certain that nobody looks at anyone else... or that anyone else thinks you might have looked at them.

If somebody suggested just banning urinals, without all this stuff about banning peeing while standing, I might even be in favour of it. But not really, as long as there are always cubicles for people who want privacy.

Like somebody else said though, a ban on peeing while standing up would be impossible to enforce anyway. That said, it probably does make more sense, and *would* be more hygienic, for everyone to pee while sitting on the toilet. I get tired of wiping up after my dad, because he doesn't seem to notice that it's gone everywhere. I just don't think this is a major social issue that needs to be urgently addressed, lol.
This reminds me of the experiments that psychologists used to do before ethics laws. In America they would put cameras in urinals, and a researcher would either pretend to use the urinal next to a member of the public or the one on the other side of the room. They would then time how long it took the unwilling (and unknowing) test subject to urinate. Obviously, the closer the researcher was, the longer it took.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:40 AM   #52 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by au Lait View Post
So if either of you had actually clicked the links and read the article you'd have realized a few important facts. Such as:



a) The person behind the proposal, Viggo Hansen, is a man. And no where does it actually state that he is a feminist. It only mentions that he is a member of a party that has ties to socialism and feminism. Most left/liberal leaning groups do. The left party is not a strictly feminist group/organization. The motion being proposed is not an issue related to feminism, and in no way is forcing men to sit down while peeing some ~feminist agenda~.

b) The proposal relates to one specific office (not every toilet in Sweden) in which Hansen wants to implement a unisex bathroom policy. Therefore enforcing a no-peeing on the seats mandate would be a simple courtesy to those who have to sit down, as well as to serve obvious hygienic purposes. The idea of labeling separate toilets for men who wish to stand is also mentioned in one article.

Journalists often use deceptive language in their articles as a way to generate views. The op has done it as well with the title of this thread. Maybe Hansen is a feminist, maybe he isn't. But that has **** all to do with his proposal. Of course the mere mention of the word works up a frenzy amongst those of you who harbor a bizarrely disproportionate fear and paranoia concerning feminism.

And look, it worked. You fell for it. Next time read before you jump to conclusions.
Fantastic, well written post. It's a shame the story has circulated for long enough to bolster existing prejudices regarding feminism.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:53 AM   #53 (permalink)
 
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All of the threads about swedish feminism on this forum are starting to weird me out a bit...

There's a nut, or group of nuts out there that are morbidly obsessed with swedish feminists.. and probably have suspects locked up in there basement.

Can't you just leave them alone in Sweden.. its not like they are preparing to invade Poland. I really don't give a crap if erect urination is not allowed at ikea.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:22 AM   #54 (permalink)
 
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Fantastic, well written post. It's a shame the story has circulated for long enough to bolster existing prejudices regarding feminism.
I'm not sure you and au Lait understand the nature of the gender debate in Scandinavia, so I think you're defending feminism and distancing these proposals and ideas from feminism based on incorrect assumptions.

For example, I saw a post you wrote some time ago about domestic violence:
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Originally Posted by kiirby View Post
It's because to be physically abused by your partner is extremely emotionally traumatising. To that end, gender is absolutely irrelevant.
I agree with this. Gender doesn't really matter when it comes to domestic violence.
But to the Scandinavian feminists movement, it absolutely does.
For example, Gudrun Schyman (leader of the Left Party 1993 - 2003, and now leader of the feminist party Feminist Initiative) made it quite clear in a debate in 2011 that she thought it was sad that the issue of domestic violence had lost it's focus on men's violence against women. Because when talking about domestic violence as one category, you no longer saw the questions of gender power imbalance and men's suppression of women. So instead, she proposed that it should be seen as "men's violence against women" and "violence in other intimate relationships".

If that's not your idea of feminism, that's fine. There are many different types of feminists; some place a lot of importance on patriarchy theory and male oppression, others see it entirely as equal opportunities.
But don't deny that these are feminists making these statements and proposals.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:44 AM   #55 (permalink)
 
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domestic violence is clearly a feminist issue tbh because the vast majority of it is carried out by men towards women. some isn't but the overwhelming majority is.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:59 AM   #56 (permalink)
 
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But don't deny that these are feminists making these statements and proposals.
That wasn't my intention whatsoever, and I'm sorry if that's how it came across. I concede, too, that I'm not expert on the feminism movement in Scandinavia. What bothers me is when cases like this are misreported and taken out of context for the sole purpose of derision and undermining the credibility of feminism as a whole.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:48 AM   #57 (permalink)
 
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domestic violence is clearly a feminist issue tbh because the vast majority of it is carried out by men towards women. some isn't but the overwhelming majority is.
Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio [AOR]=2.3; 95% confidence interval [CI]=1.9, 2., but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7). Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women (AOR=1.3; 95% CI=1.1, 1.5), and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator (AOR=4.4; 95% CI=3.6, 5.5).

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi...PH.2005.079020
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:54 AM   #58 (permalink)
 
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This is ridiculous and an invasion of privacy. Plus there is a way to keep bathrooms cleaner already.
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:07 PM   #59 (permalink)
 
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Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio [AOR]=2.3; 95% confidence interval [CI]=1.9, 2., but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7). Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women (AOR=1.3; 95% CI=1.1, 1.5), and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator (AOR=4.4; 95% CI=3.6, 5.5).

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi...PH.2005.079020
If people are judging scandinavian feminism, there must be scandinavian data and knowledge of history and culture to understand.

Women in scandinavia would still be sandwich makers controlled by whipe if they would not stand up, get together and started to fight. You know some viking women were group raped and killed after their husbands died. You think men would volunteerly stop exploiting women?

There is violence for both ways in some relationships and that is tragical no matter what is a country. In my country mens violence against women is bigger and there is much of unbelievable crap and abusing. The whole attitude toward women is sickened (not my own words).
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Old 08-18-2013, 12:11 PM   #60 (permalink)
 
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EDITED: Don't know how we got into DV topic, but since my post completely derailed the OP, I decided to delete it.
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