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Madison_Rose · 10-22-2009, 09:21 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8319136.stm

As I type, it's uncertain if he will even make it into BBC TV centre for his appearance on question time, and there are about 120 protestors outside the building.

Nick Griffin and the BNP hold some pretty nasty views - every now and then they claim "we're not racist" but that gets lost in their clamour for rights for "indiginous britons" (ie no immigrants, even 3rd or 4th generation,) the vicious rumours they spread about black people getting preferential treatment, and the time they called president Obama "an Afro-centric racist." Ugh. I want to apologise just for typing that.

So, Nick Griffin be allowed on a mainstream news program?

Banzai · 10-22-2009, 09:43 AM

No. When will the show be on?

Kelly · 10-22-2009, 10:01 AM

Allowed by whom?

Have a nice day,
Kelly

Madison_Rose · 10-22-2009, 10:15 AM

The program will be on this evening, I think. I meant "should the BBC have invited him?"

Kelly · 10-22-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison_Rose

The program will be on this evening, I think. I meant "should the BBC have invited him?"

Oh, well then, why not? It will give them ratings and that, I assume, is their main objective.

I mean, I wouldn't watch. And I hope a lot of other people won't too. But that's how it works. They wouldn't have invited him if they thought people wouldn't watch.

Have a nice day,
Kelly

WinterDave · 10-22-2009, 11:13 AM

"But the greatest controversy has been around Mr Griffin's appearance on the BBC's flagship political discussion programme Question Time. Opponents of him being on the programme believed the move handed him the legitimacy he has long coveted and to which he was not entitled. But the BBC argued that as a democratically elected politician, whose party gained nearly a million votes at the European elections, he was entitled to a platform."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8320241.stm

"The "marketplace of ideas" is a rationale for freedom of expression based on an analogy to the economic concept of a free market. The "marketplace of ideas" belief holds that the truth or the best policy arises out of the competition of widely various ideas in free, transparent public discourse, an important part of liberal democracy. This concept is often applied to discussions of patent law as well as freedom of the press and the responsibilities of the media. More recently the term has come into use by educators in higher education who have linked the concept to academic freedom."
http://www.answers.com/topic/marketplace-of-ideas

Tangent · 10-22-2009, 11:20 AM

Question Time is on at 10:35pm tonight, on BBC 1, for those interested in watching dear Nicholas discuss his, er, "politics".

As a proponent of freedom of speech, I think yes, he should be allowed airtime, even though it will probably be a media-coup for the BNP and raise their vote share (Nick is very media savy these days). I mean, does it really matter? The BNP aren't a major threat anyways.

Spangles Muldoon · 10-22-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangent

Question Time is on at 10:35pm tonight, on BBC 1, for those interested in watching dear Nicholas discuss his, er, "politics".

For those of you in other timezones, the program(me) will be broadcast in about one hour (from the time of this post). You can watch it online here:

Question Time - BBC 1

Those of you in the US might find this article interesting:

US Question Time 'would not work'

rincewind · 10-22-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madison_Rose

So, Nick Griffin be allowed on a mainstream news program?

Yes, he should. As far as I know, he belongs to a legitimate political party, and should be treated as such. All this controversy is just generating more and more publicity for them, which is exactly what they want.

Personally I'm getting sick of reading about the BNP. Either they have to be tolerated no matter how racist and stupid they are, or the whole organisation has to be broken up and banned. There is no middle ground here. I see no problem with allowing them to continue what they're doing. It's not right to single out and persecute them simply because the majority of people don't agree with what their party stands for.

Spangles Muldoon · 10-22-2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind

I see no problem with allowing them to continue what they're doing. It's not right to single out and persecute them simply because the majority of people don't agree with what their party stands for.

I agree. Once the right of someone else to speak is taken away, no matter how despicable I might find that person's views to be, the right for me to express my own views is in greater jeopardy. Further, by suppressing the speech of someone who holds disagreeable views, thereby denying us an understanding of their point of view, we are disadvantaged in our ability to counter those views.

Banzai · 10-22-2009, 12:08 PM

Actually, I think it's lose-lose either way. If we don't let him on, it'll put them in a good light because it'll look like, well, this is a democratic country you know?
On the other hand, if you do let him on, it'll probably gain potential supporters.

This thread somewhat crosses the line of "how far should racism be tolerated before the right of freedom of speech is taken away".

I do think some of his views have a point though. Not saying the way that they plan to combat them is the way to go about them however or that I'm a supporter of them or anything. And no, I'm not racist either and happen to one of those "blasted immigrants" that they so spitefully despise.

As for the OP comment about Obama...suppose one day they do become PM or something along the lines of that...it'll be interesting to see American relations with the UK.

Tangent · 10-22-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banzai

I do think some of his views have a point though.

And which views would these be? I don't see how someone who claims to be a supporter of the white working classes, yet wants to scrap income tax (thereby destroying public sector employment - e.g. in road building, construction, etc) and destroy trade unions can possibly have a point about anything. His policies contradict the views he expresses, he seems to be a demogogue out for his own gain to me.

Banzai · 10-22-2009, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangent

And which views would these be? I don't see how someone who claims to be a supporter of the white working classes, yet wants to scrap income tax (thereby destroying public sector employment - e.g. in road building, construction, etc) and destroy trade unions can possibly have a point about anything. His policies contradict the views he expresses, he seems to be a demogogue out for his own gain to me.

Well, you know how they say that immigration is out of control? You tend to notice that immigrants tend to live in the already deprived areas where public sectors such as schools are greatly struggling so putting extra pressure on them whilst doing little to improve them just makes the situation worse. Although, I guess you could say that the problem lies with the government and not the immigrants themselves.

I am not saying I agree with all their views. Infact, I think the vast majority of their views and policies are complete bollocks. I am just saying that I understand/can see where they're coming from as to why they are saying some of the things that they say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangent

The BNP aren't a major threat anyways.

I wouldn't say so yet but their support has greatly increased over the years. I think I have read somewhere that at the last general election, less people voted labour than ever and more voted BNP.

Hadron · 10-22-2009, 12:28 PM

Of course he should be allowed to have air-time.

I personally think that it's a good thing to give the BNP a stage in the public media and in politics for that matter. Making them go underground is a lot worse if you ask me. Just let their views be challanged in a public platform -- not doing so will just make them seem persecuted, and by that give them more support and credibility.

KyleThomas · 10-22-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind

Yes, he should. As far as I know, he belongs to a legitimate political party, and should be treated as such. All this controversy is just generating more and more publicity for them, which is exactly what they want.

I agree. However unpleasant some of the BNP's views might be, once we start suppressing their right to express those views where will it end? Who will decide what is an "acceptable" opinion to hold or air, and what is "unacceptable"?

Spangles Muldoon · 10-22-2009, 01:43 PM

If you're interested, the BBC has posted a 7-minute condensation of the program here:

Question Time - Condensed

Banzai · 10-22-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spangles Muldoon

If you're interested, the BBC has posted a 7-minute condensation of the program here:

Question Time - Condensed

Interesting

. I shall defintely be watching it tonight and watch the BNP try in vain to gain support. I think this is the first time I have heard for myself how they try to defend their more racist views and man, they should make a movie out of it something. Very nice entertainment.

Zombie Sheep · 10-22-2009, 02:56 PM

Unfortuntately they have to be given the right to campaign the same as any other political party in a democracy. If you ban the BNP where do you stop?

Also, I'd like the BNP's unworkable, racist, vaguely sinister policies on repatriation of minorities etc. to be *exposed* to a wider audience. Give the BNP enough rope to hang themselves I say. The more airtime these people get, the more opportunity the media here have to discredit them in front of a wide audience of right-thinking people. If you want a limit on immigration, there are - as far as I know - other more respectable voting options besides this shower.

2 European MPs! This is getting stupid.

Banzai · 10-22-2009, 03:43 PM

Ok, just watched it with great fascination. I think the British public and indeed, the whole world will truly see the BNP for what they really are. Nice insight into their, quite blurry views and massive dent to their reputation. It's quite funny to see them deny even directly quoted things.

I do agree with some of the stuff that was said though, particularly about how Labour has failed to properly control immigration and british views on it (that society is changing at an incredibly fast rate, how people are finding it difficult to accept change etc) and a big cheer to the woman who said about the lack of resources and that is coming from someone who lives in one of the most ethnically diverse but yet, one of the most deprived areas in the UK. Yes, resources is a massive problem here and it seems that when they become scarce, we seem to instantly blame the "immigrants" in the country. I quote somewhat from Jack Straw, "we will provide the resources" - well, we'll be waiting for the day you do.

zaph · 10-22-2009, 04:10 PM

Well I think that Question Time proved Locke right about good ideas winning out in a free battle of ideas. Griffin just had too much baggage, his catch phrase was "I didn't say that" everytime an embarrassing quote from his past was brought up. And boy there were alot of them. Particular highlights were Griffin being confronted about holocaust denial:
"Griffin struggled as a young Jewish man wearing a skullcap challenged him to explain why he had likened the "Orthodox opinion" that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust to the old "Orthodox opinion" that the earth was flat." from the guardian
and why he met the leader of Ku Klux Klan David Duke.

On the other hand, our Justice secretary Jack Straw, didn't get away unscathed. He fluffed the question about the governments loss of control of the immigration system. In a way it demonstrated the problem with politics in Britain. Some issues are out of bounds, so they are seeded to extremists such as Griffin and the BNP.

An example is the concerns over the effect of Muslim immigration, an issue I do have some unease about. There was a film with Spencer Tracy and Sidney Poiter called guess who's coming to dinner. Basically Poiter is dating Tracy's daughter, the film explores the prejudiced that they have against him because of his skin colour. I often wondered what a remake would look like, with a Muslim girl and a non-Muslim boy in modern Britain. Would a Muslim parents allow their daughter to date a non-Muslim? Let alone change her faith?; I have my doubts. Yet to have concerns like that is considered beyond the pale. The debate is shut down, and the nutters like the BNP fill the void.

10-22-2009, 09:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
Madison_Rose Status: conservative gay hamster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Gender: Female Age: 27 Posts: 1,307	Should this racist politician be allowed air-time? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8319136.stm As I type, it's uncertain if he will even make it into BBC TV centre for his appearance on question time, and there are about 120 protestors outside the building. Nick Griffin and the BNP hold some pretty nasty views - every now and then they claim "we're not racist" but that gets lost in their clamour for rights for "indiginous britons" (ie no immigrants, even 3rd or 4th generation,) the vicious rumours they spread about black people getting preferential treatment, and the time they called president Obama "an Afro-centric racist." Ugh. I want to apologise just for typing that. So, Nick Griffin be allowed on a mainstream news program? __________________ Freethinker? Skeptic? Agnostic? Atheist? Not sure? www.the-brights.net

10-22-2009, 09:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
Banzai Status: SAS Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: UK Posts: 916	No. When will the show be on? __________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised that The Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked him to forgive me. -- Emo Philips

10-22-2009, 10:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
Kelly Status: One More Thin Gypsy Thief Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Mainz, Deutschland Age: 32 Posts: 6,461	Allowed by whom? Have a nice day, Kelly __________________ Maybe I'll live my whole life just gettin' by. Maybe I'll be discovered. Maybe I'll be colonized. You can try to train me like a pet. You can try to teach me to behave. But I'll tell you if I haven't learned it yet, I ain't gonna sit. I ain't gonna stay.

10-22-2009, 10:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
Madison_Rose Status: conservative gay hamster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Gender: Female Age: 27 Posts: 1,307	The program will be on this evening, I think. I meant "should the BBC have invited him?" __________________ Freethinker? Skeptic? Agnostic? Atheist? Not sure? www.the-brights.net

10-22-2009, 11:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
WinterDave Status: Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 7,137	"But the greatest controversy has been around Mr Griffin's appearance on the BBC's flagship political discussion programme Question Time. Opponents of him being on the programme believed the move handed him the legitimacy he has long coveted and to which he was not entitled. But the BBC argued that as a democratically elected politician, whose party gained nearly a million votes at the European elections, he was entitled to a platform." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8320241.stm "The "marketplace of ideas" is a rationale for freedom of expression based on an analogy to the economic concept of a free market. The "marketplace of ideas" belief holds that the truth or the best policy arises out of the competition of widely various ideas in free, transparent public discourse, an important part of liberal democracy. This concept is often applied to discussions of patent law as well as freedom of the press and the responsibilities of the media. More recently the term has come into use by educators in higher education who have linked the concept to academic freedom." http://www.answers.com/topic/marketplace-of-ideas __________________ "Do not worry about the future for it is not yet come. Live each day in the present and make it beautiful." 'Sensible Gun Laws Save Lives' http://www.bradycampaign.org/

10-22-2009, 11:20 AM	#7 (permalink)
Tangent Status: Cynical Misanthrope Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: N.E. England Gender: Male Age: 18 Posts: 301	Question Time is on at 10:35pm tonight, on BBC 1, for those interested in watching dear Nicholas discuss his, er, "politics". As a proponent of freedom of speech, I think yes, he should be allowed airtime, even though it will probably be a media-coup for the BNP and raise their vote share (Nick is very media savy these days). I mean, does it really matter? The BNP aren't a major threat anyways. __________________ http://journalofasadact.blogspot.com/ - The daily goings on of a socially anxious dyspraxic pariah. http://asininerants.blogspot.com/ - The social, political, religious and miscellaneous musings of the above. Facebook - Add me!

10-22-2009, 12:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
Banzai Status: SAS Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: UK Posts: 916	Actually, I think it's lose-lose either way. If we don't let him on, it'll put them in a good light because it'll look like, well, this is a democratic country you know? On the other hand, if you do let him on, it'll probably gain potential supporters. This thread somewhat crosses the line of "how far should racism be tolerated before the right of freedom of speech is taken away". I do think some of his views have a point though. Not saying the way that they plan to combat them is the way to go about them however or that I'm a supporter of them or anything. And no, I'm not racist either and happen to one of those "blasted immigrants" that they so spitefully despise. As for the OP comment about Obama...suppose one day they do become PM or something along the lines of that...it'll be interesting to see American relations with the UK. __________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised that The Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked him to forgive me. -- Emo Philips

10-22-2009, 12:28 PM	#14 (permalink)
Hadron Status: SAS Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: United Kingdom Gender: Male Age: 17 Posts: 308	Of course he should be allowed to have air-time. I personally think that it's a good thing to give the BNP a stage in the public media and in politics for that matter. Making them go underground is a lot worse if you ask me. Just let their views be challanged in a public platform -- not doing so will just make them seem persecuted, and by that give them more support and credibility.

10-22-2009, 01:43 PM	#16 (permalink)
Spangles Muldoon Status: SAS Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 531	If you're interested, the BBC has posted a 7-minute condensation of the program here: Question Time - Condensed

10-22-2009, 02:56 PM	#18 (permalink)
Zombie Sheep Status: Ovine Undead Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Suffolk, UK Gender: Male Age: 29 Posts: 295	Unfortuntately they have to be given the right to campaign the same as any other political party in a democracy. If you ban the BNP where do you stop? Also, I'd like the BNP's unworkable, racist, vaguely sinister policies on repatriation of minorities etc. to be exposed to a wider audience. Give the BNP enough rope to hang themselves I say. The more airtime these people get, the more opportunity the media here have to discredit them in front of a wide audience of right-thinking people. If you want a limit on immigration, there are - as far as I know - other more respectable voting options besides this shower. 2 European MPs! This is getting stupid. __________________ Zombie Sheep Gentleman. Scholar. Thread-Killer. If I just killed your thread... I'M SORRY!

10-22-2009, 03:43 PM	#19 (permalink)
Banzai Status: SAS Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: UK Posts: 916	Ok, just watched it with great fascination. I think the British public and indeed, the whole world will truly see the BNP for what they really are. Nice insight into their, quite blurry views and massive dent to their reputation. It's quite funny to see them deny even directly quoted things. I do agree with some of the stuff that was said though, particularly about how Labour has failed to properly control immigration and british views on it (that society is changing at an incredibly fast rate, how people are finding it difficult to accept change etc) and a big cheer to the woman who said about the lack of resources and that is coming from someone who lives in one of the most ethnically diverse but yet, one of the most deprived areas in the UK. Yes, resources is a massive problem here and it seems that when they become scarce, we seem to instantly blame the "immigrants" in the country. I quote somewhat from Jack Straw, "we will provide the resources" - well, we'll be waiting for the day you do. __________________ When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised that The Lord doesn't work that way, so I stole one and asked him to forgive me. -- Emo Philips

10-22-2009, 04:10 PM	#20 (permalink)
zaph Status: SAS Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 176	Well I think that Question Time proved Locke right about good ideas winning out in a free battle of ideas. Griffin just had too much baggage, his catch phrase was "I didn't say that" everytime an embarrassing quote from his past was brought up. And boy there were alot of them. Particular highlights were Griffin being confronted about holocaust denial: "Griffin struggled as a young Jewish man wearing a skullcap challenged him to explain why he had likened the "Orthodox opinion" that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust to the old "Orthodox opinion" that the earth was flat." from the guardian and why he met the leader of Ku Klux Klan David Duke. On the other hand, our Justice secretary Jack Straw, didn't get away unscathed. He fluffed the question about the governments loss of control of the immigration system. In a way it demonstrated the problem with politics in Britain. Some issues are out of bounds, so they are seeded to extremists such as Griffin and the BNP. An example is the concerns over the effect of Muslim immigration, an issue I do have some unease about. There was a film with Spencer Tracy and Sidney Poiter called guess who's coming to dinner. Basically Poiter is dating Tracy's daughter, the film explores the prejudiced that they have against him because of his skin colour. I often wondered what a remake would look like, with a Muslim girl and a non-Muslim boy in modern Britain. Would a Muslim parents allow their daughter to date a non-Muslim? Let alone change her faith?; I have my doubts. Yet to have concerns like that is considered beyond the pale. The debate is shut down, and the nutters like the BNP fill the void.