Secularism

[Daxter]

I'm not always the best writer, so this introduction may be a little off, so bear with me.

I wanted to discuss secularism, focusing on the USA, since it's one of the most interesting subjects and one that may even concern me in the future. I am an atheist, no doubt about it. I don't see myself changing.

Perhaps I am a militant atheist. I've stopped believing in ''Don't speak of religion.'' and the idea that debating religion means not adhering to the idea of ''Live and let live.'' That is nonsense. Seeing how religion is an influence in every matter of our lives, I don't see why striking back at religion, with respect of course, is in anyway condemnable. It is no different from being open with your political beliefs. Do I shove my beliefs down people's throats? No, I don't. But it should stop being a taboo.

Now that we have got that out of the way, I was wondering how you people think of secularism. Supposedly, the USA, and many more countries, mostly from the west, are secular. Yet I find examples of religion given special treatment and being above the law at least every week. Here in The Netherlands, for example, there have been talks of so-called 'blasphemy' laws that would make it illegal to 'insult' religion. This scares me, since measuring this is downright impossible. What is an insult? If I say religion is downright ridiculous (and I'm naming examples from different religions here), with talking snakes, circumcision, cow worship, alcohol prohibition heaven, hell, angels and whatnot, is that an insult?

There was another issue that got me a little pissed off. If someone could confirm this for me, please do. Aren't you legally bound to swear to the bible in American courts, at least in some states? Doesn't this go completely against what constitutes a secular society?

There are many more issues I can think of, such as religious schools, religion in politics and more that make me wonder if the west is truly secular...

So my question is...

What is a truly secular society?

EDIT: my apologies. Apparently you have a choice in the bible-swearing matter; you can swear to the truth instead. Still, I think that bibles should be kept completely out of court.

[rcapo89]

Hey Daxter!!!
Secularism is a movement towards the separation of religion and government. Secularism is not inherently against religion but is completely independent from the morals and teachings of any religion. In a truly secular society the government and leaders would not show favoritism, bias, or discrimination toward people of different faiths AS WELL as people with no faith. Laws would not be made to in force or pressure its citizens. In America the constitution guarantees freedom of religion as well as freedom FROM religion. Christians in America seem to always forget this fact.
Many people in America falsely claim that America is a Christian nation or was founded on "Judeo-Christian values. Most of the founding fathers were Christian, some were atheists, some were deists but all shared a common goal of creating a secularist society.

[Homersxchild]

This has been bothering me lately with the issue of abortion and gay marriage in the US. If America is secular than why are these things not legal in all states? The arguments that I hear in favor of anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion all seem to link back to religious arguments.

[rcapo89]

Originally Posted by Homersxchild

This has been bothering me lately with the issue of abortion and gay marriage in the US. If America is secular than why are these things not legal in all states? The arguments that I hear in favor of anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion all seem to link back to religious arguments.

This shows exactly why America is not a secular society. Many conservative Christians use their religious beliefs and political power to enforce tyranny on all Americans.

[Daxter]

The gay marriage issue really bothers me. It just goes to show how behind the times America really is. And that the idea of America = freedom is absolute bull.

I also hate that religion plays a role in politics, in the USA and elsewhere. I think religion should be kept COMPLETELY out of politics. Religion is a private matter. Same goes for teaching: keep creationism out of schools. Don't want your child to believe in evolution, fine, teach him/her about dinosaurs coexisting with humans yourself.

Moreover, bashing religion is NOT discrimination. Saying that theists are second to nontheists IS. Saying violence should be used against theists IS. But I don't want anyone stopping any person from satirizing religion. And people like Richard Dawkins do not discriminate theists. Again another example from my country: a cartoon artist was ARRESTED (lifted from his bed by a dozen officers, what a joke) for making satirical cartoons about religion, the most 'sensitive' of which being muslim jokes. I've seen the cartoons themselves, and although they are rather extreme, I wouldn't call them discriminatory.

By the way, how many stores are open on sunday over there?

[rcapo89]

Originally Posted by Daxter

The gay marriage issue really bothers me. It just goes to show how behind the times America really is. And that the idea of America = freedom is absolute bull.

I also hate that religion plays a role in politics, in the USA and elsewhere. I think religion should be kept COMPLETELY out of politics. Religion is a private matter. Same goes for teaching: keep creationism out of schools. Don't want your child to believe in evolution, fine, teach him/her about dinosaurs coexisting with humans yourself.

Moreover, bashing religion is NOT discrimination. Saying that theists are second to nontheists IS. Saying violence should be used against theists IS. But I don't want anyone stopping any person from satirizing religion. And people like Richard Dawkins do not discriminate theists. Again another example from my country: a cartoon artist was ARRESTED (lifted from his bed by a dozen officers, what a joke) for making satirical cartoons about religion, the most 'sensitive' of which being muslim jokes. I've seen the cartoons themselves, and although they are rather extreme, I wouldn't call them discriminatory.

By the way, how many stores are open on sunday over there?

Hey Daxter I couldn't agree with you more. In the U.S. some states have "sin" laws which prohibit the buying and selling of alcohol, adult entertainment, as well as other "vices". In the state of Georgia (where I live), it is illegal to buy or sell alcohol on Sundays.
Many theists in America claim that the public schools are "brainwashing" children to believe in atheism or evolution. It's impossible to brainwash a child to not believe in a delusion (believing in a supernatural sky god with no evidence).
I don't believe in evolution just like I don't believe in gravity. People either accept the irrefutable evidence supporting evolution or not. Why do people still cling to tribalism and dogmatism? Hopefully in the future humanity will accept science and reason.
People being arresting in Europe for "hate speech" is horrible. Despite many theists having political power and influence in America, most Americans value the right of "freedom of Speech". This right is protected in our constitution in the first Amendment.

[Daxter]

Hey Daxter I couldn't agree with you more. In the U.S. some states have "sin" laws which prohibit the buying and selling of alcohol, adult entertainment, as well as other "vices". In the state of Georgia (where I live), it is illegal to buy or sell alcohol on Sundays.

You can't even go to the pub on sundays? Lame.

Many theists in America claim that the public schools are "brainwashing" children to believe in atheism or evolution. It's impossible to brainwash a child to not believe in a delusion (believing in a supernatural sky god with no evidence).

And forcing religion onto your child is not brainwashing? Religion manages to stay strong because kids are taught from day 1 there is a god. So really, they have no reason to complain.

I hope we get strong secular leaders in America and Europe. I hope they are able to stop all the nonsense. Gay marriage in ALL US states should be the first on the agenda.

If Obama was really this political messiah who spreads hope and love, he'd push for gay marriage in all states. Maybe not now, looking at the crisis and all, but certainly before the end of next year.

I am also still appalled by California's decision to prohibit gay marriage AFTER legalising it.

[Homersxchild]

Originally Posted by Daxter

By the way, how many stores are open on sunday over there?

Actually, there are very many open on Sundays. The only stores that stand out in my mind are certain restaurants, but they are of course privately owned and can close on whatever days they want. And also, we have a law, not sure if it's in every state or not, that car dealerships must be closed on Sundays. That's the one that to me goes against secularism. Since.. its a law.

Of course, I live in a North Eastern state. In the South there might be a lot more closed stores because it's more religious and conservative down below.

[UltraShy]

Originally Posted by Daxter

Perhaps I am a militant atheist.

Welcome to the club. I am as well.

I very strongly believe in free speech/expression and fully support the right of individuals to believe in, say, and do anything they want regardless of how much I disagree with their views. I don't care what, if anything, someone worships or how they worship it.

I only care when government gets involved. Currency says "In God We Trust." I wasn't aware that I believed in supernatural things, but my money tells me that I do. "We" presumably refers to all Americans, so do I get deported to the island of Atheism if I call the immigration & naturalization service to tell them I can't possibly be American as I don't belong to this club of US citizens called "We"?

What is a truly secular society?

Utopia.

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by rcapo89

Hey Daxter I couldn't agree with you more. In the U.S. some states have "sin" laws which prohibit the buying and selling of alcohol, adult entertainment, as well as other "vices". In the state of Georgia (where I live), it is illegal to buy or sell alcohol on Sundays.

Couldn't those laws be overturned? I'm no law expert but it doesn't seem legal to have laws like that. Wouldn't they run afoul of the establishment clause or something?

Currency says "In God We Trust."

Same thing with this. Why is that on your money?

[Witan]

People don't *have* to swear on the Bible in the US, but it is considered the default, i.e. you have to ask to take an affirmation. And of course there's the whole "in god we trust" issue, being on our money, in courtrooms, etc.

That stuff about the Netherlands really bothers me It's just so stupid. And as you said, who's to say what is considered "blasphemy"?

[ivankaramazov]

Originally Posted by Zephyr

Couldn't those laws be overturned? I'm no law expert but it doesn't seem legal to have laws like that. Wouldn't they run afoul of the establishment clause or something?

Can't buy booze where I live on Sundays either, and there is currently a pretty heated legal debate over whether or not that should change. It's liquor store lobbyists vs. restaurant lobbyists, logic wasn't invited.

[UltraShy]

Originally Posted by Witan

People don't *have* to swear on the Bible in the US, but it is considered the default, i.e. you have to ask to take an affirmation.

Yes, but as I pointed out the other month, doing an affirmation where you swear to tell the truth under penalties of perjury instead of "so help me God" singles you out and all but screams "I'm an atheist!" After all, it's clearly the most likely reason one would refuse to swear on a bible like everyone else does. Having a jury think that witness to be an atheist may introduce bias in what is the most religious nation in the industrialized world.

No different than how a Jew or Christian could face bias in a Muslim nation unless they effectively hid their religion.

[UltraShy]

Originally Posted by ivankaramazov

Can't buy booze where I live on Sundays either, and there is currently a pretty heated legal debate over whether or not that should change. It's liquor store lobbyists vs. restaurant lobbyists, logic wasn't invited.

In Wisconsin every grocery store has a huge liquor department that is frequently larger than most liquor stores. Here they can sell from 8AM to 9PM everyday.

Most liquor stores here close earlier on Sundays since after heavy drinking on Friday & Saturday nights I assume their customers are not in the mood for a third night of drinking when they have to work on Monday.

Of course, grocery stores are all open late even on Sundays, so one can pick up liquor there till 9PM.

I've seen ads for at least a couple liquor stores that are open 365 days a year. No holiday is going to stop them -- apparently, they understand that irritating relatives coming over for a holiday is a reason to drink.

[Witan]

Originally Posted by UltraShy

Yes, but as I pointed out the other month, doing an affirmation where you swear to tell the truth under penalties of perjury instead of "so help me God" singles you out and all but screams "I'm an atheist!" After all, it's clearly the most likely reason one would refuse to swear on a bible like everyone else does. Having a jury think that witness to be an atheist may introduce bias in what is the most religious nation in the industrialized world.

This is true.

[DitzyDreamer]

A truly secular society is one in which religion plays no role in the decision making of politics. Too many politicians allow their religious beliefs dicate their political decisions, which is a very anti-American concept (i.e. separation of the Church and Sate). It does NOT, however, mean that religion is to be 100% absent, just isolated.

Now that we have got that out of the way, I was wondering how you people think of secularism. Supposedly, the USA, and many more countries, mostly from the west, are secular. Yet I find examples of religion given special treatment and being above the law at least every week. Here in The Netherlands, for example, there have been talks of so-called 'blasphemy' laws that would make it illegal to 'insult' religion. This scares me, since measuring this is downright impossible. What is an insult? If I say religion is downright ridiculous (and I'm naming examples from different religions here), with talking snakes, circumcision, cow worship, alcohol prohibition heaven, hell, angels and whatnot, is that an insult?

By insulting, do you mean "attacking"? If so then...

Attacking someone on the basis of their religion is a hate crime, just like attacking a gay or a person of color on the basis of their sexual orientation and ethnicity is a hate crime. You are free to critique said person and their religion, but to insult them in a way that they feel endangered or discriminated against is wrong. I don't care if it is an atheist, an agnostic, or a person from another religion doing this, it should not be tolerated.

[BlueBamboo]

The US really is not a secular country, despite whatever the constitution and some members of it may say. It honestly makes me uncomfortable a lot of the time... like I'm not allowed to be an atheist, I have to hide it or face all sorts of scorn and harassment.

I really feel like it's getting even less secular, too. I encounter a lot of Christians complaining about how they are oppressed and they're not going to take it anymore, and so on, and lots and lots of people who seems to think it's the government's business to legislate (Christian) morality. It actually kind of worries me that Obama's current unpopularity is going to make people go in the opposite direction and elect somebody who's going to try to turn the country more towards a theocracy. Some people would probably say I'm paranoid, though. I'm not really sure how much more un-belonging I would put up with feeling.

[Daxter]

Attacking someone on the basis of their religion is a hate crime, just like attacking a gay or a person of color on the basis of their sexual orientation and ethnicity is a hate crime.

Like I said, what is 'attacking' someone on the basis of their religion? If I told a religious person their thoughts about god are laughable and primitive, is that an insult? Sorry, but I disagree. A hatecrime would be to violently attack a religious person for being religious, banning theists from a shop, or saying that theists are second-class citizens.

What are you people's thoughts about churches being exempt from taxation?

"We" presumably refers to all Americans, so do I get deported to the island of Atheism if I call the immigration & naturalization service to tell them I can't possibly be American as I don't belong to this club of US citizens called "We"?

Brilliant. You should try that.

[Brightpaperwarewolf]

Originally Posted by Daxter

Like I said, what is 'attacking' someone on the basis of their religion? If I told a religious person their thoughts about god are laughable and primitive, is that an insult? Sorry, but I disagree. A hatecrime would be to violently attack a religious person for being religious, banning theists from a shop, or saying that theists are second-class citizens.

What are you people's thoughts about churches being exempt from taxation?


Brilliant. You should try that.

The way you worded shows no respect towards other's beliefs and can be taken as an insult, implying you are better than them.

[VIncymon]

This isn't going to end well.

Remember this. No man is better than another man. You don't tell a man, everything he believes is laughable, and then act surprised if he responds with hostility.

Are suggesting is that a man calling another by a racial slurr is not a hate-crime ?

Are you suggesting that a group harassing a homosexual couple, by calling them derogatory names as they walk the street, .. is not a hate crime ?

So then how is calling another man's religion, laughable (and other such derrogatory names).. not a hate crime ?

I will have to disagree with you on that. If we have learnt anything this year, is that the biggest crimes committed, don't employ violence (think madoff).