Do you feel proud of your state and/or country?

[lonelyjew]

Originally Posted by Perfectionist

Interesting story Lonleyjew, thanks for sharing.

Hey thank you. BTW Canada is great in that you guys basically have all of the good qualities we have but don't have the more idiotic aspects of our culture (well, except for maybe some of the Quebecois who were very rude to my poor parents).

[50piecesteve]

yes to both, I live in the best state in the best country on the planet

[Dane]

I voted "proud of both", but I don't know if "proud" is really the right word. My country and state are part of my identity. It's like asking me if I'm proud to be a member of my family or if I'm proud of being male. It's just part of who I am.

The shades of meaning that the English language gives to the word "proud" imply that answering the question negatively means that you are ashamed of your country or state, which I am certainly not.

The fact that the United States has been the biggest kid on the block for decades has caused a certain amount of resentment in other countries, some of it justifiable, some not. Of course there is also a lot of admiration.

A smaller, more obscure country, like, let's say....Belgium, isn't going to evoke much positive or negative emotion outside it's borders because it itsn't big enough to make much impact on the world one way or the other.

[MindOverMood]

I love my City, Province and Country.

[mbcdn]

I'm proud to be a Canadian. I was born and raised in Ontario so I'll always have a deep respect for that place unlike my current province of Alberta.

[Just Lurking]

Originally Posted by MindOverMood

I love my City, Province and Country.

^I'm almost there (I wouldn't go so far as to say "I'm proud of my city"), but Ontario and Canada? Definitely proud as **** to say they're my home province and country.

[Lottoman]

Originally Posted by lonelyjew

Is the US perfect? Heck no. Is it an amazing nation with immense opportunity for those who seek it and rewards those who are hard working? Heck yes. I know how well my relatives and my parents' friends are doing in other nations (Russia, Moldova, Germany, Israel) and none of them live lives as nice as ours. It is sad, but unsurprising, that Americans themselves, spoiled by never having to experience life outside this nation, are so often *****ing about how bad this nation is, and have no idea how lucky they are to live in such a great country.

I never got the logic behind you shouldn't complain because someone else in the world has it worse off than you. There's always going to be someone on the planet who has a harsher life than the next, but that doesn't make the other person's problems any less important. There's a big difference between an American complaining about mass debt, obesity, incarceration, school shootings, fraud, illegal drug usage, mental disorders, and child abuse, and an American complaining about his $300 sneakers getting some dirt on them. The latter is bellyaching, the former are legitimate causes for concern.

[komorikun]

I would be probably be better off where my family came from (many generations ago); England, France, and Germany/Austria.

I think if you are upper-middle class or wealthy it is better to be in the US but if you are just the average schmoe you are better off in Western Europe.

[lonelyjew]

Originally Posted by Lottoman

I never got the logic behind you shouldn't complain because someone else in the world has it worse off than you. There's always going to be someone on the planet who has a harsher life than the next, but that doesn't make the other person's problems any less important. There's a big difference between an American complaining about mass debt, obesity, incarceration, school shootings, fraud, illegal drug usage, mental disorders, and child abuse, and an American complaining about his $300 sneakers getting some dirt on them. The latter is bellyaching, the former are legitimate causes for concern.

There is a gulf of difference between "you shouldn't complain" and "you should be completely unappreciative". Most everyone can say there is someone who has a worse life, but if you're an American you can bet that the vast majority of people struggle far more than you for the basic things you take for granted. I am completely with you that not only is there room for improvement, and that a good American (or any citizen) will push for that improvement. Again though, the desire for improvement is quite different, and a great deal more justifiable, than the shame many Americans feel for living in an awesome, but imperfect, nation.

Frankly, the liberaltards need to get over Bush invading Iraq, unilaterally, 8 years ago. Yes that was a terrible and reprehensible mistake, but Christ, it doesn't take that much away from all the great things this nation has done, and all of the great things this nation is. Even Germans can be proud of their heritage despite of the holocaust. Seriously, the apologists need to get over themselves...

[lonelyjew]

Originally Posted by komorikun

I think if you are upper-middle class or wealthy it is better to be in the US but if you are just the average schmoe you are better off in Western Europe.

If you're hard working you're better of in the US imo. Like I pointed in my overly long post, there is a great deal of reward for the hardworking in the US. It isn't by some strange coincidental that almost every immigrant I know is either already very successful or on the path to success; they frankly work harder than Americans who've grown up in America. I remember very well during my Phi Beta Kappa induction ceremony (which only accepts the top graduates from the liberal arts and sciences) how few Americans there were being inducted (quite possibly 1 or 2 out of the 40-50 of us). It made me quite sad because it seems to me that Americans understand how easily they can live well enough, and to it certainly doesn't require a real effort to hit that standard here....

This thread however makes me think of the spoiled brat who went to my high school, who was upset when his daddy got him a Mercedes instead of the Mustang he had wanted for his 16th birthday...

[VILLAINallcaps]

Im so ****in ashamed to say im from america. Nothing but a bunch of blind ignorant people being led to the slaughter house. Wise up america

[komorikun]

Originally Posted by lonelyjew

If you're hard working you're better of in the US imo. Like I pointed in my overly long post, there is a great deal of reward for the hardworking in the US. It isn't by some strange coincidental that almost every immigrant I know is either already very successful or on the path to success; they frankly work harder than Americans who've grown up in America. I remember very well during my Phi Beta Kappa induction ceremony (which only accepts the top graduates from the liberal arts and sciences) how few Americans there were being inducted (quite possibly 1 or 2 out of the 40-50 of us). It made me quite sad because it seems to me that Americans understand how easily they can live well enough, and to it certainly doesn't require a real effort to hit that standard here....

This thread however makes me think of the spoiled brat who went to my high school, who was upset when his daddy got him a Mercedes instead of the Mustang he had wanted for his 16th birthday...

What if you are just of average intelligence and not lazy but not a workaholic either? I would just like to get my little bachelor's degree and make an all right living, have health insurance, and 4-6 weeks vacation a year to travel. I don't care to become a doctor or get a master's and then work 50-60 hours a week with only 2 weeks vacation.

Of course, life is better here than in the 3rd world for the average person but compared to Europe it kind of sucks. We have a higher degree of economic inequality than Western Europe and less economic mobility. Even if everyone was a workaholic I doubt the unemployment rate would go down much.

[Paper Samurai]

Originally Posted by gustafsg

You do have a point with the immigrant thing, I've heard Turks have a pretty tough time there.

As far as unemployment goes, Germany still has a lower unemployment rate than the United States. Their official unemployment rate is around 6.8 right now, compared to our highly skewed 8.3 percent unemployment rate (a lot of economists actually estimate a much higher unemployment rate, based on how many discouraged workers have completely dropped out of the workforce)

And there are other measurements outside of basic economics. On the inequality-adjusted human development index (which basically looks at how well the average person is doing based on education, health, etc), the northern European countries are way ahead of the United States. They tend to be healthier and better educated.


All that being said, I still love living in America and would not give it up. I admire the diversity and innovation I see here on a daily basis. I just think we have a lot of work to do.

I agree with your points. I knew someone from Germany two years ago, and unless alot has changed since then, I'd probably say that living in Germany (for the middle class and below) is better than America and the UK. They have one of the best health care syistems around (and it's universal), they're the industrial capital of Europe and they are much less materialistic than the US and ourselves here in the UK (we're basically mini America in that regard).

That Turkish immigrant issue is also worth mentioning. In Germany for obvious reasons, people don't like to mention immigration issues to vocally. (or anything that can be construed as anti-foreign) This leaves them at odds with some of the immigrants coming in, who they see as increasing crime rate in certain areas. There's a feeling of resentment with some groups because of this situation.

[Brightpaperwarewolf]

Originally Posted by komorikun

What if you are just of average intelligence and not lazy but not a workaholic either? I would just like to get my little bachelor's degree and make an all right living, have health insurance, and 4-6 weeks vacation a year to travel. I don't care to become a doctor or get a master's and then work 50-60 hours a week with only 2 weeks vacation.

Of course, life is better here than in the 3rd world for the average person but compared to Europe it kind of sucks. We have a higher degree of economic inequality than Western Europe and less economic mobility. Even if everyone was a workaholic I doubt the unemployment rate would go down much.

Right about economic inequality, completely wrong about that America has less economic mobility than Europe. About 97% of American jobs are based on at-will employment which means that at any time, an employer can terminate an employee and employees can leave at anytime. Economic mobility is far more elastic in America. In comparison to Europe, it's far easier to get a job in America. Far easier. It's also easier to move up because there's no social barrier to continue your education, only economic.

In a school system like Switzerland, there are educational paths that are determined for you when you are young. By the age of 10, they put you on paths. You have three, the "gymnasium" path. that is not a gym to workout, it means going to the high school tailored for people going to university. You have a middle path which is for like special trades and on this path, you have an opportunity to go up to the gymnasium path, but only if you reach certain milestones like doing well in the 7th or 9th or 11th year. Then you have the bottom path which helps people that is determined would be the path, similar to a trade path. I believe you can always go back to the 2nd path but I don't remember too well, it's been a long time.

Obtaining employment, a country like France is far more challenging because of the obligations that employers would have to their employees. The hiring process of companies tend to be more stringent because once you hire someone, it's harder to terminate them because of their labor laws. Often, low level jobs require at least 2 interviews if not three. Sure they only have 35 hour work weeks, but you'll be working off your *** for all those 35 hours under far more oversight than what most American employers would subject their employees to.

It's also definitely possible to have a comfortable job that you only work 40 hours a week and gives you more than 2 weeks of vacation time. I'm like you, I never want work to become my life. Go in, work your *** off for how long you have to be there then go home and leave it behind. There's a lot more to life than working your *** off all the time.

[Hadron]

yeah, there is a much greater sense of unity here than in any of the countries I've been to. i think the fact that Israel is surrounded by enemies hundreds of times bigger than itself has something to do with it, though.

[au Lait]

Originally Posted by 50piecesteve

I live in the best state

I think you'll find it is California that is the best state.

[Milco]

Originally Posted by komorikun

Of course, life is better here than in the 3rd world for the average person but compared to Europe it kind of sucks. We have a higher degree of economic inequality than Western Europe and less economic mobility.

You're more than welcome to come here
Well.. I say that, but Denmark and a few other European countries have passed just horrible immigration policies :\
But I'd welcome you at least

I think free education plays a large role in breaking the negative social inheritance, but it doesn't fix it completely by itself.
Whether or not your parents can afford to pay your tuition fees is not indicative of whether or not you have the skills required to pass. Turning away people who could have done really well is a huge waste of resources for society, not to mention the effects it has on the individual.

And whether I'm proud of my country.. Hmm, both yes and no.
I didn't choose to get born here and I don't really have much of a stake in the country, but there are some areas where "we" are doing well.. also many areas where we're not nearly doing enough.

Originally Posted by Brightpaperwarewolf

In a school system like Switzerland, there are educational paths that are determined for you when you are young.

Uhm.. not quite.
You choose a path yourself, it is not chosen for you.
And if the Swizz system is anything like ours, the different paths are just specialised towards different interests, but actually give you the exact same qualifications towards further studying.
Different things you can study at university require you to have had different classes at a particular level (I studied computer science at university which required A level math and B level physics), and if you haven't had the specific classes you need for what you want to study, you just take supplementary classes.
All of that is completely free of course.

Originally Posted by Brightpaperwarewolf

Obtaining employment, a country like France is far more challenging because of the obligations that employers would have to their employees.
...
Often, low level jobs require at least 2 interviews if not three. Sure they only have 35 hour work weeks, but you'll be working off your *** for all those 35 hours under far more oversight than what most American employers would subject their employees to.

I haven't worked in France, but there are many jobs you can get here just coming right off the street.
The only jobs I've heard of that have 2 or more interviews are ones requiring university degrees, but I wouldn't call those low level.
And I strongly doubt there's "far more oversight" here than you have.

[Lottoman]

Originally Posted by lonelyjew

There is a gulf of difference between "you shouldn't complain" and "you should be completely unappreciative". Most everyone can say there is someone who has a worse life, but if you're an American you can bet that the vast majority of people struggle far more than you for the basic things you take for granted. I am completely with you that not only is there room for improvement, and that a good American (or any citizen) will push for that improvement. Again though, the desire for improvement is quite different, and a great deal more justifiable, than the shame many Americans feel for living in an awesome, but imperfect, nation.

Frankly, the liberaltards need to get over Bush invading Iraq, unilaterally, 8 years ago. Yes that was a terrible and reprehensible mistake, but Christ, it doesn't take that much away from all the great things this nation has done, and all of the great things this nation is. Even Germans can be proud of their heritage despite of the holocaust. Seriously, the apologists need to get over themselves...

You make a lot of good points and I see where you're coming from, but can you really blame us for being that way? Sure we may have more luxuries and freedoms than most other countries but when so many of us of us are dealing with issues like divorce, substance abuse, depression, violence, physical and mental disorders, and debt it's kind of hard to look on the bright side of life. You also have to take note that being miserable and bitter is unavoidable for some of us due to genetics and upbringing.
There are many great things about our culture but unfortunately it also allows us to constantly reach new heights of gluttony, greed, laziness, anger, lust, pride, and envy. We can't help being unappreciative and constantly wanting more.

[StayingMotivated]

I'm not really proud of my state-I was born and raised here -I had no choice. Can't be too proud of stolen land. But hey at least the bay area is progressive in some issues. I can say I'm glad I'm not from TX or the south.

[stylicho]

I think if you are upper-middle class or wealthy it is better to be in the US but if you are just the average schmoe you are better off in Western Europe.

Exactly. I live in one of the poorer states in the country with some of the most uneducated people in the country lol. I had to leave the state (work for a company outside of it) to make any money. And I figure the half Middle Eastern in me is going to find it difficult to advance in certain areas due to prejudices that we'll probably experience for the next thirty or so years. So I might change my last name so I can fit in better since I think I can pass for white without my last name.
But really, the working class and poor don't have it very good at all in this country even if they have a cell phone. I need to videotape some of the shacks that exist in middle America. Tin leaky roofs with broken windows. It's actually very common where I stay. No wonder they eat squirrels lol.