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Thomas Paine · 09-20-2009, 03:47 PM

A handbook with a thorough list of bible passages and theological concepts, that Fundamentalist Christians need in order to sustain their belief system, which can actually be put into context (using nothing other then The Bible) and used to counter their own beliefs.

So, would this be something valuable to you as an atheist? Or could you care less?

glarmph · 09-20-2009, 04:41 PM

Anything that could help destroy that religion is valuable.

Zephyr · 09-20-2009, 04:43 PM

I'm not sure I understand the question. Is it just bible contradictions you're looking for?

ivankaramazov · 09-20-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Paine

A handbook with a thorough list of bible passages and theological concepts, that Fundamentalist Christians need in order to sustain their belief system, which can actually be put into context (using nothing other then The Bible) and used to counter their own beliefs.

So, would this be something valuable to you as an atheist? Or could you care less?

So basically it would be like one of the 10,000 atheist websites out there in paperback?

Fuzzy Logic · 09-20-2009, 04:55 PM

No, I'm not on a mission to convert anyone.

bezoomny · 09-20-2009, 05:03 PM

No, it seems stupid and seems to reinforce the idea that atheism isn't anything other than a rejection of Western Christianity.

Madison_Rose · 09-20-2009, 05:03 PM

I don't see why this would be useful to me as an atheist. I'm not clear, but from what you said it sounds like a "why fundamentalist christians are wrong" handbook. If that's the case, it would be useful to a militant atheist, but not all atheists are militant, that is to say, we're not all out to demolish religion.

I consider myself a secularist (also an atheist, a Humanist, and a Bright) - people should be free to believe what they like, but religion should have no special status. Would such a book be useful to me? You tell me!

Edit: I put forward an overly simplistic explanation there. I don't really think that people have the right to any beliefs at all, what I meant was that people can be christian, or hindu, or whatever, if they like. However, they should be able to justify their religious morality just as well as I can justify my secular morality. They don't have any right to judge me "bad" according to their interpretation of the Bible, or the Torah, or whatever.

WineKitty · 09-20-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glarmph

Anything that could help destroy that religion is valuable.

That is ridiculous. You dont have the right to "destroy" anyone's personal beliefs anymore than they do yours. Being militant on either end of the spectrum is just pure ignorance and intolerance.

glarmph · 09-20-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WineKitty

That is ridiculous. You dont have the right to "destroy" anyone's personal beliefs anymore than they do yours. Being militant on either end of the spectrum is just pure ignorance and intolerance.

I never said I had the right, I said it would be valuable.

Thomas Paine · 09-20-2009, 05:43 PM

Hmm, first of all I should have probably asked if it would be valuable to people who are not Fundamentalist Christians, which would also include some Christians.

By Fundamentalist Christians I am referring to the ones who are on a mission to turn the whole world into a Theocracy, even though most of them don't even realize they are. The ones who refuse to even consider the theory of evolution, etc...

And I'm not talking about a book that shows the apparent contradictions in the Bible. This means nothing to Fundamentalists because they do not believe the Bible has any contradictions in the first place. In order to get these specific Christians to believe anything, you have to use the Bible alone - not logic, not history, just the words in a standard Bible. Otherwise they will just block it out of their minds with the subconscious excuse that it must not be true.

I believe this is quite a bit different then the approach that most people take to prove the Bible wrong. I am not even talking about proving the Bible wrong. I am talking about proving the tenants of Fundamentalist Christianity wrong using nothing but the "Inspired Word of God" that they put above all other sources of knowledge and reason.

I believe I can do it, having grown up as one of them and having a fairly decent Fundamentalist Theology education. Plus the fact that I can't stand them and they've made my life a living hell, so I would be highly motivated, lol.

And I've exposed a few of these cracks already to a Fundamentalist I know in person, and been fairly surprised by the reaction I got.

Thomas Paine · 09-20-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WineKitty

That is ridiculous. You dont have the right to "destroy" anyone's personal beliefs anymore than they do yours.

You do to have the right to "destroy" anyone's beliefs that you want, especially when that person's whole belief system is bent on destroying everyone elses.

nubly · 09-20-2009, 05:50 PM

the only religion im against is radical islam. i firmly believe those beliefs should be abolished

glarmph · 09-20-2009, 05:53 PM

If histroy has taught us anything it's that, while reglion in theory could be a very good thing, the reality is that most people are too weak and ignorant to handle it and in the end it's caused more harm than good.

Zephyr · 09-20-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Paine

And I'm not talking about a book that shows the apparent contradictions in the Bible. This means nothing to Fundamentalists because they do not believe the Bible has any contradictions in the first place. In order to get these specific Christians to believe anything, you have to use the Bible alone - not logic, not history, just the words in a standard Bible. Otherwise they will just block it out of their minds with the subconscious excuse that it must not be true.

I believe this is quite a bit different then the approach that most people take to prove the Bible wrong. I am not even talking about proving the Bible wrong. I am talking about proving the tenants of Fundamentalist Christianity wrong using nothing but the "Inspired Word of God" that they put above all other sources of knowledge and reason.

But then what do you mean? Using the words of the bible to prove the bible wrong, at least as understood by fundies. Okay. Can you give an example?

Madison_Rose · 09-20-2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WineKitty

That is ridiculous. You dont have the right to "destroy" anyone's personal beliefs anymore than they do yours. Being militant on either end of the spectrum is just pure ignorance and intolerance.

In b4 lock: Why not? Why are "beliefs" so special and sacred? There are some people who believe that if a man looks at a woman and has lustful feelings, then he's sinned and it's her fault. Some people believe that thieves should have hands cut off, that female adulteresses (even if they were raped and had no chioce in thier adultery) should be flogged, or stoned to death.

These beliefs are wrong. More than that, they are abhorrent. I will challenge them every chance I get. I do not owe these beliefs any respect at all.

Edit: and if I can destroy such beliefs, I will, and with a clear concience.

UltraShy · 09-20-2009, 06:32 PM

That sounds like Cliff Notes for the bible. I remember using those lovely summaries back in HS English when I didn't want to actually read the book. I'm not a fan of books at all.

I know there are some atheists who feel it's important to read the bible and know it well simply so they are fully prepared with ammo to use when believers start throwing biblical quotes at them. Such an atheist can refute the believers' arguments by throwing back other biblical quotes that don't show the bible in a positive light at all.

I'm not that type of atheist. I have better things to do than get to know the bible. Given that I don't believe in any religion it seems pointless to me to get to know it well.

There is only one biblical passage I can quote and that would be the one used as the intro to Iron Maiden's "Number of the Beast": "Woe unto thee of earth and sea for the devil sends the beast with wrath for he knows the time is short. Let he who have understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number. It's number is six hundred and sixty six."

Thomas Paine · 09-20-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephyr

But then what do you mean? Using the words of the bible to prove the bible wrong, at least as understood by fundies. Okay. Can you give an example?

Ok, but only one example because I may try to profit off of this, lmao. I know... if there's a Hell, I'd be going there.

Example: I know this guy who took a vow not to ever drink alcohol in his life (because a lot of them believe that even when Jesus turned the water into wine, it was non-alcoholic). In the Bible it also says that it is an extremely serious thing to take a vow. To break a vow is a very, very serious matter. There are some finer Theological points you could use to show that the vow was non-Biblical to take in the first place, but it is also broken once you point out the fact that there is alcohol in mouthwash and small amounts do absorb through your skin. Also can point out that prescription drugs like benzodiazepines have the same effect on you as alcohol, so Valium use is tantamount to "drunkenness".

That is getting a little out of the bounds of The Bible alone as the argument, but they still realize that they have to use some reason in order to know what the specific verses are talking about in the first place. For instance, how would you even define alcohol without knowing that alcohol has a different chemical structure then grape juice (acknowledging science). I guess this could be another point to make that they don't really even rely solely on The Bible like they claim.

This is not one of the best arguments, but just an example. Most of the good ones that I came up with growing up, I would have to spend some considerable time looking them back up.

UltraShy · 09-20-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Paine

Example: I know this guy who took a vow not to ever drink alcohol in his life (because a lot of them believe that even when Jesus turned the water into wine, it was non-alcoholic).

Doesn't wine by definition contain alcohol?

I know there is at least one alcohol-free "wine". In think the brand is called Fre, though I assume they make it by removing alcohol from wine. Can't imagine why anybody would want to drink it. Why not just have grape juice?

Thomas Paine · 09-20-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UltraShy

Doesn't wine by definition contain alcohol?

I know there is at least one alcohol-free "wine". In think the brand is called Fre, though I assume they make it by removing alcohol from wine. Can't imagine why anybody would want to drink it. Why not just have grape juice?

Yeah, it's pretty far fetched, yet this person has several books on the subject and is thoroughly convinced.

ivankaramazov · 09-20-2009, 06:49 PM

If I learned anything from my militant atheist phase, it's that things in the Bible aren't really all that important to the majority of Christians.

09-20-2009, 03:47 PM	#1 (permalink)
Thomas Paine Status: Fail Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: USA Gender: Male Age: 28 Posts: 1,698	Atheists: Would You Find This Valuable? A handbook with a thorough list of bible passages and theological concepts, that Fundamentalist Christians need in order to sustain their belief system, which can actually be put into context (using nothing other then The Bible) and used to counter their own beliefs. So, would this be something valuable to you as an atheist? Or could you care less? __________________ I thought that when you said so long You wouldn't stay to hear your song

09-20-2009, 05:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
bezoomny Status: the new disease Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Mississippi Gender: Female Age: 21 Posts: 2,814	No, it seems stupid and seems to reinforce the idea that atheism isn't anything other than a rejection of Western Christianity. __________________ bravo - echo - zulu - oscar - oscar - mike - november - yankee

09-20-2009, 05:03 PM	#7 (permalink)
Madison_Rose Status: conservative gay hamster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Gender: Female Age: 27 Posts: 1,307	I don't see why this would be useful to me as an atheist. I'm not clear, but from what you said it sounds like a "why fundamentalist christians are wrong" handbook. If that's the case, it would be useful to a militant atheist, but not all atheists are militant, that is to say, we're not all out to demolish religion. I consider myself a secularist (also an atheist, a Humanist, and a Bright) - people should be free to believe what they like, but religion should have no special status. Would such a book be useful to me? You tell me! Edit: I put forward an overly simplistic explanation there. I don't really think that people have the right to any beliefs at all, what I meant was that people can be christian, or hindu, or whatever, if they like. However, they should be able to justify their religious morality just as well as I can justify my secular morality. They don't have any right to judge me "bad" according to their interpretation of the Bible, or the Torah, or whatever. __________________ Freethinker? Skeptic? Agnostic? Atheist? Not sure? www.the-brights.net

09-20-2009, 05:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
Thomas Paine Status: Fail Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: USA Gender: Male Age: 28 Posts: 1,698	Hmm, first of all I should have probably asked if it would be valuable to people who are not Fundamentalist Christians, which would also include some Christians. By Fundamentalist Christians I am referring to the ones who are on a mission to turn the whole world into a Theocracy, even though most of them don't even realize they are. The ones who refuse to even consider the theory of evolution, etc... And I'm not talking about a book that shows the apparent contradictions in the Bible. This means nothing to Fundamentalists because they do not believe the Bible has any contradictions in the first place. In order to get these specific Christians to believe anything, you have to use the Bible alone - not logic, not history, just the words in a standard Bible. Otherwise they will just block it out of their minds with the subconscious excuse that it must not be true. I believe this is quite a bit different then the approach that most people take to prove the Bible wrong. I am not even talking about proving the Bible wrong. I am talking about proving the tenants of Fundamentalist Christianity wrong using nothing but the "Inspired Word of God" that they put above all other sources of knowledge and reason. I believe I can do it, having grown up as one of them and having a fairly decent Fundamentalist Theology education. Plus the fact that I can't stand them and they've made my life a living hell, so I would be highly motivated, lol. And I've exposed a few of these cracks already to a Fundamentalist I know in person, and been fairly surprised by the reaction I got. __________________ I thought that when you said so long You wouldn't stay to hear your song

09-20-2009, 06:32 PM	#16 (permalink)
UltraShy Status: Accident of Birth Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI (Atheist, Libertarian) Gender: Male Age: 36 Posts: 24,572	That sounds like Cliff Notes for the bible. I remember using those lovely summaries back in HS English when I didn't want to actually read the book. I'm not a fan of books at all. I know there are some atheists who feel it's important to read the bible and know it well simply so they are fully prepared with ammo to use when believers start throwing biblical quotes at them. Such an atheist can refute the believers' arguments by throwing back other biblical quotes that don't show the bible in a positive light at all. I'm not that type of atheist. I have better things to do than get to know the bible. Given that I don't believe in any religion it seems pointless to me to get to know it well. There is only one biblical passage I can quote and that would be the one used as the intro to Iron Maiden's "Number of the Beast": "Woe unto thee of earth and sea for the devil sends the beast with wrath for he knows the time is short. Let he who have understanding reckon the number of the beast for it is a human number. It's number is six hundred and sixty six." __________________ Nothing is ever the way it should be What we deserve we just don't get you see http://www.insureyourgunrights.com/

09-20-2009, 04:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
glarmph Status: Hiding in my basement Join Date: May 2009 Location: Illinois Gender: Male Age: 25 Posts: 243	Anything that could help destroy that religion is valuable.

09-20-2009, 04:43 PM	#3 (permalink)
Zephyr Status: gone Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 9,579	I'm not sure I understand the question. Is it just bible contradictions you're looking for?

09-20-2009, 04:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
Fuzzy Logic Status: SAS Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: United Kingdom, Northern Ireland Gender: Male Age: 23 Posts: 307	No, I'm not on a mission to convert anyone.

09-20-2009, 05:50 PM	#12 (permalink)
nubly Status: SAS Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA the greatest and best country in the world!! :) Posts: 7,065	the only religion im against is radical islam. i firmly believe those beliefs should be abolished

09-20-2009, 05:53 PM	#13 (permalink)
glarmph Status: Hiding in my basement Join Date: May 2009 Location: Illinois Gender: Male Age: 25 Posts: 243	If histroy has taught us anything it's that, while reglion in theory could be a very good thing, the reality is that most people are too weak and ignorant to handle it and in the end it's caused more harm than good.

09-20-2009, 06:49 PM	#20 (permalink)
ivankaramazov Status: SAS Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Gender: Male Age: 26 Posts: 236	If I learned anything from my militant atheist phase, it's that things in the Bible aren't really all that important to the majority of Christians.