$1 trillion (in 2 years) economic stimulus plan

[nubly]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_151986.html

[millenniumman75]

We are supposed to get it back, though. Congress can hold the companies accountable. As lenders, we should be able to say something to have this done.

[Cypress]

Originally Posted by millenniumman75

We are supposed to get it back, though. Congress can hold the companies accountable. As lenders, we should be able to say something to have this done.

I don't trust Congress to hold themselves accountable...

[Reachinghigher]

[coldmorning]

Originally Posted by millenniumman75

We are supposed to get it back, though. Congress can hold the companies accountable. As lenders, we should be able to say something to have this done.

This article is about the stimulus plan... that's a different thing from the bailout which you're referring to.

[Cypress]

Originally Posted by coldmorning

This article is about the stimulus plan... that's a different thing from the bailout which you're referring to.

I suppose this is how we're getting it back then.

[coldmorning]

Originally Posted by Cypress

I suppose this is how we're getting it back then.

The stimulus plan is not a loan. It's a spending plan. It's supposed to keep more jobs from being lost and to revive the economy in general.

It is still a proposal and hasn't been passed.

[OneIsALonelyNumber]

What scares me is that when they first started talking about Obama's stimulus plan, the projected cost was $500 billion. Then it was $750 bn. Now it's $1 trillion.

I'm afraid that as soon as the Dems gets control they will go ape**** with spending - just like the Republicans did when they came into power. Some people might say that a stimulus is needed right now, so it's ok to go even deeper in debt. I say that there's always a reason to spend money, and unless the government can exercise some fiscal discipline, the next debit crisis will be the US government unable to pay its bills.

[Noca]

Why not $1 quadrillion instead? Who cares, America is never gonna pay it back anyways.

[millenniumman75]

People are only going to be able to spend it on groceries the way we are going.

[WineKitty]

With all the criticism in this thread that I am reading here is what I am NOT seeing: Your better Idea? I am NOT a fan of increased spending either but in TODAY'S economy what BETTER PLAN do you have? Its rather easy to criticize; much harder to say what your plan is. I am not a fan of spending, saying that again, and I am not sure that bailouts or stimulus packages are going to work. But, to be quite honest with the shape the economy is in today, I cannot say what will.

[OneIsALonelyNumber]

Originally Posted by Penny

With all the criticism in this thread that I am reading here is what I am NOT seeing: Your better Idea? I am NOT a fan of increased spending either but in TODAY'S economy what BETTER PLAN do you have? Its rather easy to criticize; much harder to say what your plan is. I am not a fan of spending, saying that again, and I am not sure that bailouts or stimulus packages are going to work. But, to be quite honest with the shape the economy is in today, I cannot say what will.

My solution: recognize that spending won't get us out of this hole. Restore fiscal discipline to the US government by cutting spending across the board, especially in the bloated military (does American really need the ability to fight simultaneous wars on two fronts, as the generals claim?). Also, lower taxes if possible.

[stylicho]

Originally Posted by OneIsALonelyNumber

My solution: recognize that spending won't get us out of this hole. Restore fiscal discipline to the US government by cutting spending across the board, especially in the bloated military (does American really need the ability to fight simultaneous wars on two fronts, as the generals claim?). Also, lower taxes if possible.

The last president to use fiscal discipline was Clinton. I say raise the taxes on the wealthy. especially those making over a million dollars a year.
Edit: And to those who think tax cuts equal more revenue
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...692027,00.html
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509210010
In fact, if that's your thinking then why not eliminate taxes altogether?

[Reachinghigher]

[UltraShy]

My first suggestion would be to let the big three automakers restructure under chapter 11 bankruptcy instead of giving them bailouts that just postpones the inevitable.

[UltraShy]

Originally Posted by Noca

Why not $1 quadrillion instead? Who cares, America is never gonna pay it back anyways.

Sovereign nations can NEVER technically default on debt denominated in their own currency, since with fiat money they can simply make more money out of thin air. This of course leads to nasty things like hyperinflation where a Big Mac will cost you $50 million, but our government is printing money like mad anyhow.

Everyone in the world is so scared of "risk" that last week 4-week Treasury Bills were auctioned for a rate of 0.00% -- yes, many billions of dollars were invested in something guaranteed to produce absolutely no return.

[WineKitty]

Originally Posted by UltraShy

My first suggestion would be to let the big three automakers restructure under chapter 11 bankruptcy instead of giving them bailouts that just postpones the inevitable.

I am not fan of bailouts but how do you rationalize 3 million jobs lost? From my understanding, the companies couldnt make it any further and would fold. And how do you think that will not affect the market, and basically YOU??? And do you really feel comfortable having all your military vehicles foreign made? Because without American Auto Makers, who is making them?

[copper]

This is what may happen if this government keeps printing money out of thin air.

This woman is burning the German Marks because the money is worthless due to the German government printing the money from thin air to pay all the debts and reparations for WW I.

[UltraShy]

Originally Posted by Penny

I am not fan of bailouts but how do you rationalize 3 million jobs lost? From my understanding, the companies couldn't make it any further and would fold.

With government bailouts they can keep screwing around like they have been for decades and keep asking for more & more money. Where is the end?

Republicans, for the most part, opposed these bailouts. Bush is responsible for getting them enough money to make it till March. Perhaps this is a smart move (by an otherwise dumb Bush) to keep them going for the moment so they can ultimately go bankrupt under the reign of the Obamessiah and his Democratically-controlled Congress. Makes sense from a political standpoint as the GOP can't be blamed for it then.

Chapter 11 would finally force them to restructure under the supervision of a judge, so that perhaps they could go on to be financially viable companies. Chapter 11 does NOT mean liquidation. It means reorganization -- they'd still exist (similar to many airlines that have gone bankrupt, sometimes more than once.)

The idea that jobs will be lost forever is nonsensical. UAW workers will move on to jobs at Toyota, Honda or other careers. Should we have subsidized those who made horse shoes & buggy whips when they lost their jobs due to Henry Ford and his Model T? The economy moves on and standing in the way of progress to subsidize inefficiency isn't going to help.

I wonder how many who moan & groan about the downfall of the US auto industry actually drive an American car? If you don't drive American then you helped in their downfall, and if you drive American then you've seen the crap they put out and know why they're in trouble.

Originally Posted by Penny

And how do you think that will not affect the market, and basically YOU???

As of the other week GM bonds that mature in only 2 years were trading at 20 cents on the dollar, so the market already assumed bankruptcy was the most likely outcome. Ford stock got down to a low of $1.01 -- virtually a penny stock.

And I personally lost $3,700 by buying 100 shares each of GM & Ford back in 2005 when they appeared to be very cheap & high yielding. They got much cheaper and eliminated their dividends. I no longer own them. Their stock price bounces around wildly -- effectively their stock has become a call option (or a lottery ticket for those not into finance).

[WineKitty]

Originally Posted by UltraShy

With government bailouts they can keep screwing around like they have been for decades and keep asking for more & more money. Where is the end?

This is a good point. As I said I am not a fan of the bailouts. I find it strange though that the Auto bailout is being scrutinized so closely when the bailout for wall street which was 10 times as much has been virtually ignored, despite billions of dollars flying around and sending CEOs on retreats and giving people bonuses up to 4 million dollars.

... under the reign of the Obamessiah

Cute.

Chapter 11 would finally force them to restructure under the supervision of a judge, so that perhaps they could go on to be financially viable companies. Chapter 11 does NOT mean liquidation. It means reorganization -- they'd still exist (similar to many airlines that have gone bankrupt, sometimes more than once.)

Yes I understand the differences in bankruptcy, between chapter 7 and 11. I agree that the companies need to be revamped. I am just not sure about bankruptcy for the companies.

The idea that jobs will be lost forever is nonsensical.

If Chrysler fails, the job is lost forever. I dont see how that is nonsensical.

UAW workers will move on to jobs at Toyota, Honda or other careers.

Michigan has a super high unemployment rate and I dont believe Toyota and Honda are in Michigan. And even if the workers moved, I highly doubt there are enough openings to accomodate more than a few workers.

Should we have subsidized those who made horse shoes & buggy whips when they lost their jobs due to Henry Ford and his Model T?

That is a silly comparison, Karl, as cars are STILL being made, we are talking about the failure of the American companies.

I wonder how many who moan & groan about the downfall of the US auto industry actually drive an American car?

I drive a Chrysler PT Cruiser. I plan on buying another one, unless it looks like they fail, I am not paying for a warranty that wont be honored.

I have had little to no issues with my car. I love it, its probably the best car I have ever own due to its practicality and I like the styling.

And, actually American numbers have been improving.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/01/23/american_cars/


And again, if the car companies fail, who is making military vehicles for America?