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Old 08-04-2011, 02:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Vicodin? Why do opiates treat anxiety?

Curious as to why opiates such as vics or other treat anxiety.

Like whats going on in the brain? We all know that benzos work by basically mimicking gaba (a) particles. Since gaba(a) is that major inhibitory transmitter in the brain tension/anxiety goes down.

How does it work with these opiates?

Also how does it work the the SSRIs? You administer ssri to a person and serotonin levels shoot up drastically at least in rats brains. Why the delayed therapeutic response? If the increase in 5-ht transmission is thought to mediate antidepressant/antianxiety effects then why the delay? There must be more to it than 5-ht goin up
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Himi Jendrix View Post
Curious as to why opiates such as vics or other treat anxiety.

Like whats going on in the brain? We all know that benzos work by basically mimicking gaba (a) particles. Since gaba(a) is that major inhibitory transmitter in the brain tension/anxiety goes down.

How does it work with these opiates?
i have no idea, it was a complete cure from lifelong depression+anxiety for me in 30mins after taking a vicodin...i wish they had a drug similar that cou;ld be prescribed...it literally changed my life

dont expect an answer, nobody is really studying this and most likely wont because treating these disease with opiates has been considered passe since MAOIs came around...i dont think any psych would even touch it, even where i live where i can get opiates prescibred after a 10min visit to a pain clinic any time i want my psych dr said there is absolutely no way he could prescribe it.

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Also how does it work the the SSRIs? You administer ssri to a person and serotonin levels shoot up drastically at least in rats brains. Why the delayed therapeutic response? If the increase in 5-ht transmission is thought to mediate antidepressant/antianxiety effects then why the delay? There must be more to it than 5-ht goin up
the short answer is they dont really know, its now believed to have something to do with stimulating regrowth of nerve cells in the brain heres some information

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/id.../06/head_fake/
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Old 08-04-2011, 06:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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How I understand the things:
5HT levels increase indeed at the time you take SSRI, but not sustainably, because of autoreceptors (5HT1A presynaptic and others), that,being activated with this additional 5HT, decrease serotonin synthesis and release in turn. It takes time for them to be desensitize. Then postsynaptic 5HT receptors such as 5HT2C, 5HT7 and others need time to down-regulation, after which side effects subside and therapeutic 5HT1A(postsynaptic)-mediated effect develops fully. 5HT1A induce dopamine and oxytocin release among other. And further effects include nerve cells regrowth via BDNF raise, boost of enkephaline synthesis etc. That's why the delay is.

As for opioids, they disinhibit mesolimbic dopamine release, that is highly pleasurable. You just can't experience SA or depression being in such a state of bliss. Stims like cocaine do ultimately the same, but through another mechanism. In contrast to them, opioids calm you down by parallel cAMPH synthesis suppression (something opposite to caffeine action).
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:05 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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As for opioids, they disinhibit mesolimbic dopamine release, that is highly pleasurable. You just can't experience SA or depression being in such a state of bliss. Stims like cocaine do ultimately the same, but through another mechanism. In contrast to them, opioids calm you down by parallel cAMPH synthesis suppression (something opposite to caffeine action).
i dont get any high from the amount of vicodin i was taking 3.5mg , i exceeded the dose to 5mg and found the effects unpleasant and different from the effects at 3.5mg i never grew tolerant of the anxiolytic effects even from taking that dosage daily regularly.

additionally extreme ly small doses of buprenex has been shown to treat depression, but it has very little high which fades quickly...so how is that?
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Anyway it increases mesolimbic (especially shell of nucleus accumbens = pleasure center) DA more or less depending the dose (that is not usually directly or at all touched by conventional antidepressants/anxiolytics because of dependence issues). Ppl use stims like amphetamine for SA, because of its dopaminergic properties, but opioids have that advantage, that they cause no tension/restlessness/insomnia. The drawback is much worse physical dependence, based on cAMPH synthesis adaptations.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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In retrospect, for me, opiates didn't help my anxiety per se, all that much but they helped me get a bit more pleasure from just about anything including making social interaction bearable. But without benzos my anxiety was still there. I wasn't any more sociable though even with both medications. Social interaction felt more numb/less painful, so I could deal with it, when it came along.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by broflovski View Post
How I understand the things:
5HT levels increase indeed at the time you take SSRI, but not sustainably, because of autoreceptors (5HT1A presynaptic and others), that,being activated with this additional 5HT, decrease serotonin synthesis and release in turn. It takes time for them to be desensitize. Then postsynaptic 5HT receptors such as 5HT2C, 5HT7 and others need time to down-regulation, after which side effects subside and therapeutic 5HT1A(postsynaptic)-mediated effect develops fully. 5HT1A induce dopamine and oxytocin release among other. And further effects include nerve cells regrowth via BDNF raise, boost of enkephaline synthesis etc. That's why the delay is.

As for opioids, they disinhibit mesolimbic dopamine release, that is highly pleasurable. You just can't experience SA or depression being in such a state of bliss. Stims like cocaine do ultimately the same, but through another mechanism. In contrast to them, opioids calm you down by parallel cAMPH synthesis suppression (something opposite to caffeine action).
Ok, so the 5-ht1a stimulation releases all these feel good chems?

Why dont ssri's work for eveyone and why cant they be abused?
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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5-ht1a postsynaptic activation mostly, yes, but 5HT4 and some other may be involved. SSRIs are not abusable because they don't release dopamine in nucleus accumbens (as do opiates, cocaine etc). They are of little help for those with dopamine-dependent depression, anhedonia etc. And/or side effects or delay in onset may be too significant because of individual peculiarities in 5HT synthesis, receptors sensitivity etc. Sometimes success with some particular SSRI drug may be due to its additional non-SRI properties (5HT2c blockade with prozac, DRI of sertraline). IMO moderate dopaminergics (amineptine, tianeptine etc) must be much more effective for most kinds of depression, but they are not used widely because of abuse potential.
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Old 08-05-2011, 01:22 AM   #9 (permalink)
 
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In retrospect, for me, opiates didn't help my anxiety per se, all that much but they helped me get a bit more pleasure from just about anything including making social interaction bearable. But without benzos my anxiety was still there. I wasn't any more sociable though even with both medications. Social interaction felt more numb/less painful, so I could deal with it, when it came along.
Haha yeah opiates made me want to talk to people but I was still uncomfortable around people. Like witnessing a pleasurable train wreck or something.
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Old 08-05-2011, 02:02 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Anyone here tried dihydrocodeine?
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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With memantine opiates can probably be used long term
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Anyone here tried dihydrocodeine?
I want to try this it looks really good. At the moment I have a script for T3's and it helps my anxiety so much, combined with lyrica it kills my anxiety.

Eventually when the tolerance starts to grow I will have to switch it up, so anyone know the best opiates for treating anxiety? Or the best opiates for long term use?
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:49 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Smarties View Post
I want to try this it looks really good. At the moment I have a script for T3's and it helps my anxiety so much, combined with lyrica it kills my anxiety.

Eventually when the tolerance starts to grow I will have to switch it up, so anyone know the best opiates for treating anxiety? Or the best opiates for long term use?
buprenex has been studied for depression and shown efficacy.

its easier to come off compared to most...plus theres no high from it and its fairly easy to get prescribed by a pain dr. long term if you can claim some sort of chronic pain. the downside is you have to shoot it either subcu or IM

vicodin worked great for me, and its easy to get where i live however its not very good for your liver
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:54 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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You can get buprenorphine sublingual pills. I've got quite a nice buzz off several 0.2mg ones. It's just the long half life means if doing recreational, you'll get dependent rather quickly as by the next time you take it, it may not have even cleared from before, let alone had enough time for the rebound and tolerance reset.
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Old 08-13-2011, 01:44 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Anyone here tried dihydrocodeine?
Yeah I love this stuff. Not as addictive as the stronger opiates but still works alot better then codeine.
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Old 08-13-2011, 06:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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You can get buprenorphine sublingual pills. I've got quite a nice buzz off several 0.2mg ones. It's just the long half life means if doing recreational, you'll get dependent rather quickly as by the next time you take it, it may not have even cleared from before, let alone had enough time for the rebound and tolerance reset.
believe it or not, its harder to get suboxone than opiates where i live. only certainly doctors can prescribe them and they are very strict about who gets them (short term use only) . also suboxone has nalexone in it in addition, ive heard it does not work well for depression. buprenex supposedly works very well

years ago it was easy to get if you had chronic pain, now its not widely prescribed
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