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Old 01-08-2011, 03:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Downregulation of Gaba receptors

Benzodiazapenes, along with alcohol, facilitate the binding of Gaba with its appropriate receptors. I believe they act as ligands, enhancing the receptors' functions.

However, long term use (of alcohol or benzodiazapenes) does cause a loss of these Gaba receptors. Does anyone know of any studies that show how long it takes to return to previous receptor levels once either of these drugs has been stopped?
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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That can take pretty damn long, seems even semi permanent in many cases, however NMDA antagonists work to upregulate GABA receptors and ppl use them to aid withdrawals.
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by crayzyMed View Post
That can take pretty damn long, seems even semi permanent in many cases, however NMDA antagonists work to upregulate GABA receptors and ppl use them to aid withdrawals.
are you sure about this? any idea how to do it? i have access to ketamine and am experiencing proctracted benzodiazepine withdrawals. are you telling me that ketamine could help?
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
 
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I would go with an anticonvulsant, most can dose dependently raise GABA concentrations. I would avoid strong nmda antagonists like ketamine.

Alcohol and benzodiazepines hit different gaba receptors with benzodiazepines being worse for permanent down regulation.

So id go with anticonvulsant if it was me or i would wait it out.
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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why would you avoid ketamine?
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:03 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
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are you sure about this? any idea how to do it? i have access to ketamine and am experiencing proctracted benzodiazepine withdrawals. are you telling me that ketamine could help?
Read my thread guys:
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Well I am down 50% on my valium now but its not comfortable - I may have to go back up or increase the memantine or add Delsym or something.

I get the distinct impression that DXM is more effective for benzos than memantine is but at the same time, I was taking 60mg of Delsym twice a day versus taking 20mg of memantine twice a day so maybe I just need to go up in the mem dose.

Personally, I think Delsym was working quite well with the valium withdrawal though - my tolerance to it was going down when I was on the Delsym and it started on the second or third day... I switched to memantine due to concerns about drug interactions with DXM but I may switch back because memantine has suppressed my breathing when I take too much (up to 60mg a day) and doesn't appear to be working as well as DXM does. Plus I quit taking drugs altogether in order to do my taper as quickly as possible and get back to work.

Can anyone comment on how well DXM works versus memantine for benzo withdrawal? I would imagine that it is superior - I remember that my valium tolerance dropped on its own when I was doing the Delsym whereas the memantine seems to just reduce the withdrawal symptoms (ie., no brain fog, no memory problems, still functional, no panic attacks, but still psychological symptoms like feeling that your heart is going to give out, weird body feelings, but nothing physical to back it up other than random pains).

It seems to be somewhat commonly reported that for whatever reason, DXM users can keep using the drug they are tolerant to and still experience a tolerance reduction but this does not seem to be the case with memantine.

I guess I may have to just suck it up and switch to the syrup and just make sure to avoid serotonergic drugs, although I wonder how much damage a roll would do with therapeutic levels of Delsym - I won't be trying it though.
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I tend to have any adverse reaction that is clinically possible - my body really dislikes pharmaceutical drugs so don't take my word as the final word, it was more a word of caution - but cardiac events do appear to be a problem with memantine.

I switched to DXM starting last night by taking 5mL of Delsym at midnight. I then SKIPPED my Valium dose and took another 5mL at 6AM then fell asleep about 11AM. I woke up about 3PM, which meant I missed my afternoon dose of Valium as well and then about 4:30 I finally took 5mg of Valium and that's all I've had today. I took another 5mL of Delsym when I woke up and another 5mL at 7:30 or so and will take another 5mL at midnight. Normally I'd have taken 20mg of Valium in this time period so there is definitely something to dextromethorphan versus memantine. I should also note that I have experienced no respiratory suppression or heart abnormalities since I stopped taking the memantine, even with the extreme decrease in Valium.

Even more amazing is the fact that when all this went on with the heart racing out of control on the MDMA/Mescaline combo and the drinking that ensued, I ended up taking a full extra 20mg of Valium that day but I'm still able to come down so quickly off of it the day after the fact.

As for the tolerance prevention, just go back on the memantine after you come down from the MDMA. Memantine has quite a long half-life though so there's still a chance that a good bit of it could be in your system even a week later. Even at the low side of 60 hours, that's 2.5 days before your blood level of memantine is halved and another 2.5 days before its quartered, meaning that it takes 5 days to get down to 10mg plasma levels after taking 40mg. On the high end, the half life is 100 hours so you'd be looking at just over 4 days before your plasma levels would hit 20mg after dosing 40mg.

Either way, it seems that all of the NMDA antagonists have the ability to cause severe CNS issues including respiratory failure, heart attack, and stroke, so just be careful with them. Ketamine has been known to cause significant increases in pulse and blood pressure and everyone knows that recreational levels of dextromethorphan cause tachycardia and hypertension.

All that being said, the 120mg of dextromethorphan polisterex I have taken is having less of an impact on my pulse and blood pressure than 40mg of memantine did.
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I took Alprazolam for 3 years, then went through accidental cold-turkey withdrawal because the local pharmacies weren't carrying any (happens where I live occasionally, sucky country/city). I experienced severe withdrawal symptoms including paranoia and transient psychosis but soon I got again on Alprazolam and thankfully didn't have a seizure. During that period I was completely tolerant to 2 mg Alprazolam's both sedative and anxiolytic effects.

Since I started taking Memantine, the tolerance was reversed somewhat and 1 mg was anxiolytic and practical enough for social anxiety disorder. 2 mg was very effective sedative. Tolerance didn't develop any further from this point on.

When I began tapering off Alprazolam for good, I was on 2 mg/day and the withdrawal was pretty negligible, only symptoms were irritability and slight sense of panicking, despite the rapid taper process.
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I'm totally getting similar results from Huperazine A. I've been taking 100 mcg twice daily for 4 days. I wonder if anyone else can relate to this w/r/t huperazine.

In case it's of interest to you, I've cut my alprazolam consumption in half. Not because I'm trying to give it up but because it's suddenly too potent. FWIW I have a 6-year daily alprazolam habit.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=501875

I recommend to read the whole thread for more information and to get an idea on dosing, it seems that DXM is capable of reversing tolerance while memantine rather just slows tolerance, which is probably because DXM hits the same anti addiction receptor as wellbutrin (memantine hits nicotinic receptors too but differend one's.)

A course of DXM certainly wont hurt to try, and then well have some more experiences too.

Regarding the cardiovascular stuff with memantine, it appears to slow down heartrate in some very rare cases, however some caution when combining it with depressants like opiates can be a good idea (get a heartrate monitor or something) and it also appears to potentiate the heartrate increase caused by serotogenic drugs like MDMA in some people.
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:00 AM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Old 01-09-2011, 10:03 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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My doctor still prescribes me Klonopin. However, since I began taking 2mg/day of klonopin, if I go 24 hours without taking any, I have difficulty breathing. Its the main symptom of the panic attacks I was having (which is why I began taking klonopin in the first place).
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crayzyMed View Post
Read my thread guys:





http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=501875

I recommend to read the whole thread for more information and to get an idea on dosing, it seems that DXM is capable of reversing tolerance while memantine rather just slows tolerance, which is probably because DXM hits the same anti addiction receptor as wellbutrin (memantine hits nicotinic receptors too but differend one's.)

A course of DXM certainly wont hurt to try, and then well have some more experiences too.

Regarding the cardiovascular stuff with memantine, it appears to slow down heartrate in some very rare cases, however some caution when combining it with depressants like opiates can be a good idea (get a heartrate monitor or something) and it also appears to potentiate the heartrate increase caused by serotogenic drugs like MDMA in some people.

i read the entire thread at bluelight and i made a post over there. can you recommend a dose to start with?
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recipe For Disaster View Post
i read the entire thread at bluelight and i made a post over there. can you recommend a dose to start with?
30-60mg 2 or 3 times a day.
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:38 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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how long should it take for results to become apparent?
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:43 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recipe For Disaster View Post
how long should it take for results to become apparent?
After a few days allready, keep us updated!
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
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re: DXM & NMDA drugs

I was considering low low doses of that maybe.
My problem is I wonder if it interacts with other drugs.

Such as anti-psychotics & Lyrica... anybody have any info on this?

thanks..
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBL View Post
re: DXM & NMDA drugs

I was considering low low doses of that maybe.
My problem is I wonder if it interacts with other drugs.

Such as anti-psychotics & Lyrica... anybody have any info on this?

thanks..
DXM will only interact with other serogenics.
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Old 01-14-2011, 08:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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For those that try it consider updating my thread on bluelight, some more reports would be great.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:16 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RigaCrypto
Do you think methoxetamine would lend itself to use as an anti-depressant in repeated low doses in the manner possible with ketamine?
I can't compare it with ketamine but can say MXE does work in this way. When I first got it I only used it only like this for almost a week. 2-5mg doses every few hours seemed to work quite well as a mood stabilizer/antidepressant.
Same guy explaining:
Quote:
The reason I had tried the small, regular doses was to try to manage a hyperactive glutamate system due to gabaergic dysfunction caused by past benzodiazepine use and withdrawal. It did help with some of my symptoms and I eventually realized that it worked better for me when used less often and in larger doses. I thought that maybe the less often dosing worked better because I am sensitive to things, but maybe its not me and just the nature of the substance.

I have noticed antidepressant benefits lasting for days after a single dose and so far I think this works best with doses >10mg. I don't get the antidepressant effect until after it wears off. YMMV though.
It appears that Methoxetamine works against protracted withdrawals for this person, i would expect low doses of ketamine and possibly memantine and DXM to do the same, while memantine and DXM do work very well against tolerance, the acute antidepressant effects of ketamine and MXE appear to be stronger.
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:12 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Lyrica can mask withdrawal symptoms but will definitely not stop the physiological withdrawal taking place in the body. Alcohol does have the same affinity towards GABAa as benzos and will help more physiologically. But it does not act as strong in the bonding of GABA receptors but is definitely a strong, short term detox help along with the others mentioned above. Cannot express how it is important to use everything at your disposal. difeerent meds/drugs, supplements(l theanine,valerian,l glutamine) along with diet and exercise and sleep. also take a strong multi and load up on the b-vits and magnesium. Which is easily cooked out of foods and is a huge central nervous/muscle relaxant. Plenty of sleep and when in need tit-rate slowly down. It should be an integrative approach. Not a ,"take this" period!!!

The proper restoration of any psychological disability take all the proper and progressive movement. Plus, rest, rebuilding time and patience as it should really be always on the mind with all daily activities, eat and sleep!!

There's not one magical pill!!
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Lyrica can mask withdrawal symptoms but will definitely not stop the physiological withdrawal taking place in the body.
It however most likely inhibits the neurotoxiticy involved in withdrawals, wich is mediated by glutamate hyperactivity.
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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How can that be proven at this point,Wes???
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:26 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
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How can that be proven at this point,Wes???
It protects against excitoxiticy, wich is what causes neurotoxiticy involved in benzo withdrawal.
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