"Work hard and you can overcome your social anxiety"

[tednugent2007]

I get angry when people say stuff like "work hard and you can overcome your social anxiety". That makes no sense at all. That's like saying to a guy with a history of heart problems in his family "Exercise and eat right and you will live into your 70's and suffer no heart attacks." Sometimes it's not a matter of trying or working hard, it's a matter of brain chemistry and the way we are. I had an uncle who killed himself, an aunt who lived at her mom's house until she was 40 and after that she was homeless for awhile (now married to an abusive husband), a cousin who was so socially akward he didn't have a job until he was 30, a grandma who didn't like to leave the house, and my mom who worries about everything and doesn't like new situations. None of them took medication for their disorder. I'm hopefull I can manage my anxiety and live a semi-normal life through medication and therapy, but I never see myself "overcoming anxiety" by magically changing the way my brain works. That just seem so simple minded and insulting. Maybe if you have a mild case of anxiety, it's easy to make that statement, but it's different for others.

[shyvr6]

I think it's a lifestyle change. Kind of like your heart example. If the person changes their lifestyle habits for the better, then they reduce their chances of having heart problems. Sure the possibility is always there, but you're reducing that possibility. The same goes with sa.

[stardog99]

I don't believe SA has anything to do with 'brain chemistry', it is a learned response. Even if you have had SA since you were very young it was probably very mild then and you were definitely not born with it. And yeah, it probably does require work. Have a read up on CBT.

Don't be too deterministic about your life, you really don't know what will/can happen, or what you might be capable of.

Certainly people have recovered from SA. Many don't post here now but some do.

[UltraShy]

These "work hard and you can overcome your SA" folks should line up so I can give them a swift kick in the ***.

The comment implies that those who don't overcome SA simply failed to work hard enough. These folks are quite presumptuous to think they can know the mental torture that exists within my mind and has been at work for decades, and think they are qualified to just say "you just need to work at it". I suggest nobody trying saying that to me in person unless they want to end up in the ER trying to have a size 13 removed from their ***.

[Lilfly]

Stardog99...I totally disagree with your comment that SA has nothing to do with brain chemistry!

There is a spectrum within SA falls. Let's put it this way:
On a scale of 1 to 10:
1 being shy
10 being severe debilitating social anxiety

Now, the people that say they have "overcome" their SA...have mistakingly assumed that all SA is the same. Thus, the claim that "hard work" will beat it. It's ignorance (in the "not aware" sense, not the person themselves)...to reduce such a complex issue to such simplicity.

And so as not to bore everyone to death by quoting the reams of medical evidence to support the physiological connection with (true) social anxiety..suffice it to say that it's beliefs such as you stated that reinforces and encourages discrimination against persons with this medical condition.

*aside..Karl, I'd PAY to see that!

[Illini_Pride]

I believe it is hard work. Socializing for us is more of a chore. In my opinion, another way one can say they have overcome social anxiety is if it's not controlling one's life. A person may still have it, but faces the fear and socializes anyway.

[Lilfly]

Overcoming and managing are two different things. Might just be semantics...but

Overcoming implies "cure"
Managing implies "reaching your highest potential concerning your own person base line"

[Illini_Pride]

Lilfly, where did you get that information? I believe what you're saying. I'm just wondering because you put stuff in quotes.

[stardog99]

Originally Posted by Lilfly

Stardog99...I totally disagree with your comment that SA has nothing to do with brain chemistry!

There is a spectrum within SA falls. Let's put it this way:
On a scale of 1 to 10:
1 being shy
10 being severe debilitating social anxiety

Now, the people that say they have "overcome" their SA...have mistakingly assumed that all SA is the same. Thus, the claim that "hard work" will beat it. It's ignorance (in the "not aware" sense, not the person themselves)...to reduce such a complex issue to such simplicity.

And so as not to bore everyone to death by quoting the reams of medical evidence to support the physiological connection with (true) social anxiety..suffice it to say that it's beliefs such as you stated that reinforces and encourages discrimination against persons with this medical condition.

*aside..Karl, I'd PAY to see that!

There is a difference between working hard to change your thinking, through a proper guided framework such as CBT, and working hard to just get out and socialize/expose yourself to social situations, which is I think what you're thinking of. I agree the latter does not work.

We can't see beyond our own reality. You may think your SA is caused by 'brain chemistry' but you can't possibly know this for certain and I'm saying for some it will be a way of giving up trying to change because they wrongly think they are 'hard-wired' this way. Thinking patterns, over time changes your brain physiology, not the other way round. And these 'brain changes' are totally reversible. Don't forget that the human brain is an amazing piece of equipment with vast capabilities beyond what we currently know.

Medication seems the only solution to the 'brain chemistry' argument, but it's no long-term solution, since it deals with the symptoms of SA, as opposed to the core underlying issues which the person needs to deal with

[Mr. SandMan]

Originally Posted by tednugent2007

I get angry when people say stuff like "work hard and you can overcome your social anxiety". That makes no sense at all. That's like saying to a guy with a history of heart problems in his family "Exercise and eat right and you will live into your 70's and suffer no heart attacks." Sometimes it's not a matter of trying or working hard, it's a matter of brain chemistry and the way we are. I had an uncle who killed himself, an aunt who lived at her mom's house until she was 40 and after that she was homeless for awhile (now married to an abusive husband), a cousin who was so socially akward he didn't have a job until he was 30, a grandma who didn't like to leave the house, and my mom who worries about everything and doesn't like new situations. None of them took medication for their disorder. I'm hopefull I can manage my anxiety and live a semi-normal life through medication and therapy, but I never see myself "overcoming anxiety" by magically changing the way my brain works. That just seem so simple minded and insulting. Maybe if you have a mild case of anxiety, it's easy to make that statement, but it's different for others.

exactly, its something that will never change, just become managable, which makes me hate it even more...

[Scattered]

Originally Posted by stardog99

There is a difference between working hard to change your thinking, through a proper guided framework such as CBT, and working hard to just get out and socialize/expose yourself to social situations, which is I think what you're thinking of. I agree the latter does not work.

We can't see beyond our own reality. You may think your SA is caused by 'brain chemistry' but you can't possibly know this for certain and I'm saying for some it will be a way of giving up trying to change because they wrongly think they are 'hard-wired' this way. Thinking patterns, over time changes your brain physiology, not the other way round. And these 'brain changes' are totally reversible. Don't forget that the human brain is an amazing piece of equipment with vast capabilities beyond what we currently know.

Medication seems the only solution to the 'brain chemistry' argument, but it's no long-term solution, since it deals with the symptoms of SA, as opposed to the core underlying issues which the person needs to deal with

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say we can't be certain of the connection between SA and "brain chemistry". The reason I have that in quotes is because people like to talk about disorders as being more or less related to brain chemistry, but in reality, everything you do, every behavior you exhibit, every tendency--its all related to brain chemistry. You wouldn't be able to do anything at all, if it wasn't for that brain chemistry. So I think there IS some amount of determinism involved. CBT only works because of its ability to change a person's brain chemistry. The same way negative events can also alter a person's brian chemistry and enforce maladaptive behaviors. And just because a person is hard-wired for certain behaviors doesn't mean that behavior can't be modified, it may just mean that a person is alot more resistant to change than someone without the same kinds of genetic predispositions. I think at the end of the day, its not really possible to know just how hard-wired or determined a person's behavior really is. The only thing that can be done is to try whatever is available to you and stick with what works. Some people will change, some people won't.

[Lilfly]

Hey Illini_Pride...I really don't mean to come off sounding like it's an: us vs. them kinda thing. I am merely asserting that to totally disregard the major role that our brain chemistry plays in SA seems short-sighted at best.

As for the quotes...I usually use them to stress a point (mistaken use..I know) but I will give you some interesting links that highlight the points I was trying to make...I apologize for any confusion I may have caused..

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publicat ... rder.shtml
NIMH · Social Phobia (Social Anxiety Disorder)

http://www.socialfear.com/
Social Anxiety Disorder (Social Phobia) Symptoms and Treatment 2007

and the 4th definition pertains to the 'baseline' I spoke of can be found here:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/baseline
baseline - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

[HoboQueen]

I completely agree. I don't believe Social Anxiety is something that ever really goes away. You can manage it. You can deal with it. You can end up living a pretty good life in spite of it. But I don't think it ever goes away. Maybe those who say you need to work harder need to realize that we're all different and not everything works the same way for everyone.

[yeah_yeah_yeah]

It can definitely feel like a hopeless struggle fighting something like SA. Trying one thing after the other, feeling a little progress, then being dumped on your *** again. Many people go through this process many times over and when the frustration of feeling like nothing will ever change is comboned with someone who seems to ignore what you have been through, yeh - I would get pissed off too. Its like, "how the hell can you know what I have been through and what its like for me? Yeah you have SA too - but you arent ME".

You raise a good point Ted. I think more often than not that when people write things like "you just need to work hard" that it is out of frustration, and also of wanting to help and - perhaps more than a little - to be accepted by the person they are writing to. To give someone advice, and to have them go "cool! I will try that!" is a real buzz and its certainly what always motivated me to write advice type posts. If the person reaqcts angrily, then that feels like a rejection of ME as a person, when it isnt. I can see that I was very often guilty of not having empathy for people on this site. For me, fighting has been a lifelong thing. I can remember it starting when I was THREE, and every year since has been overcoming what I originally thought was depression / anxiety, finally overcoming the anxiety and then finding out that I have BPD. Something in me always said "you are going to beat this - the illness is not YOU - there is so much more underneath and one day all this **** will end". That made me obsessive - every spare hour I had went into 'overcoming'. Yes I was looking in the wrong place - CBT will not overcome Borderline PD. If I had known about schema years ago things may have been different. I had a 'near miss' with my first CBT therapist in that the RELATIONSHIP I had with my therapist turbocharged the CBT. This is typical of treating BPD with schema therapy, where the relationship is the core healing element. I didnt realise it at the time and spent years trying to get that back, knocking on the wrong door of ONLY MY OBVIOUS, SURFACE SYMPTOMS - depression and anxiety.

And I think thats the point - everyone has to find their own path. To try one thing, and then another. If there is no one in your life to help yu keep going when you have a failure, then it is much much harder. It means picking yourself up and going again. For me that was always easy because of my obsession with becoming all that i felt I could be. i dont know where that drive came from, but Im glad it was there.

I think that it helps to learn to understand other peoples views. SAS has, painfully - taught me the importance of this. There are methods and approcahes and therapies out there that can help people - many people. But its not as simple as just getting into therapy. There are many more factors that make even that seem impossible, there are many other factors that work against getting better - and these are a part if each persons humanity. Everyone has unique struggles, but everyone needs to be understood and to feel that their pain is understood, and no one should be criticised for being WHEREVER THEY ARE on that recovery spectrum.

I have got frustrated here many times, but I have learned that when I do I have something to learn at that time. People have been frustrated with me in exactly the same way in the past, but it was not until I felt LISTENED TO that finally I began to make progress.

CBT theraspists that lack the 'human touch' tend to want to apply only technique, without realising they are dealing with a PERSON. The approaches can work - but if the person is not heard, the therapy will be far harder as the person feels "this guy just isnt listening to me - he's stuck up his own ***".

For me I have learned that if I want to help people, I need to listen to them and unserstand what they feel and need before anything else. Thats hard to do on a website with 1000's of people, but for sure the guys here who ARE making progress have a valuable lesson to learn - to empathise, understand and see the person behind the post. I think that would bring some big changes here.

Anyways good post Ted

Ross

[javasirc]

I lived in Delaware and just moved to South Carolina 7 days ago. I was still just as anxious when i moved. In Delaware it was wake up, go to work, come home and sit in my room, sometimes go to Taco Bell or the dollar store.

Now that i moved to South Carolina...
Ive been working on removing an old fence and rebuilding it. Its a lot of work. I wake up at 8, get a few chores done, take a shower, and go work on the fence. Afterwards i go to the store. These last 2 days my anxiety has been low. Im beginning to open up to my mom's boyfriend, and i went to the grocery store and Staples with little anxiety. At the grocery store i walked past this good looking girl about my age (less than a foot apart when we passed) and got really nervous . I was barely self concious and i made eye contact with people without having to think about it. When someone said something to me, my responses were fast. Usually id be like "uhhhh what do i say..." and say something that doesnt make sense. These last 2 days, most of my responses have been fast and not anxious.

I dont think anxiety can go away just by hard work, but i know hard work helps. It gets the blood flowing through the brain and lets me take my mind of things. I also noticed that im reading posts on this forum a lot faster

Overall, i think working hard helps with not only anxiety, but other things as well. Excercise probably has the same effect. Ive been eating better since i moved here too.

Better diet + hard work/excercise + sunlight = anti-anxiety, in my opinion.

[IllusionOfHappiness]

Originally Posted by HoboQueen

I completely agree. I don't believe Social Anxiety is something that ever really goes away. You can manage it. You can deal with it. You can end up living a pretty good life in spite of it. But I don't think it ever goes away. Maybe those who say you need to work harder need to realize that we're all different and not everything works the same way for everyone.

My thoughts exactly.

[St0ne]

I completely agree that each of our experiences are relative. I think some people can get over it, some people can only manage it. In my own research I've never seen a doctor, professor or psychologist say that SA is purely a chemical inbalance. They all seem to agree it plays a part in many cases and it makes you more inclined to develop SA but it is not the direct cause. It seems to me SA is a learned problem from experiences and your own reactions.

To me looking at the OP it is completely full of negative speaking and there are a lot of them about on this forum. It's one of the reasons I'm looking for a more positive and proactive forum to help me overcome this.

[MavenMI6Agent009]

I agree that diet and exercise generally help with any kind of mental problem.

[Illini_Pride]

No need to apologize, lilfly. You didn't do anything wrong. I can stand to be corrected, but just this once. j/k haha Learning new things is good. You're actually helping me to deal with my SA. Ironic, eh?

[Disintegrate]

Originally Posted by yeah_yeah_yeah

It can definitely feel like a hopeless struggle fighting something like SA. Trying one thing after the other, feeling a little progress, then being dumped on your *** again. Many people go through this process many times over and when the frustration of feeling like nothing will ever change is comboned with someone who seems to ignore what you have been through, yeh - I would get pissed off too. Its like, "how the hell can you know what I have been through and what its like for me? Yeah you have SA too - but you arent ME".

You raise a good point Ted. I think more often than not that when people write things like "you just need to work hard" that it is out of frustration, and also of wanting to help and - perhaps more than a little - to be accepted by the person they are writing to. To give someone advice, and to have them go "cool! I will try that!" is a real buzz and its certainly what always motivated me to write advice type posts. If the person reaqcts angrily, then that feels like a rejection of ME as a person, when it isnt. I can see that I was very often guilty of not having empathy for people on this site. For me, fighting has been a lifelong thing. I can remember it starting when I was THREE, and every year since has been overcoming what I originally thought was depression / anxiety, finally overcoming the anxiety and then finding out that I have BPD. Something in me always said "you are going to beat this - the illness is not YOU - there is so much more underneath and one day all this **** will end". That made me obsessive - every spare hour I had went into 'overcoming'. Yes I was looking in the wrong place - CBT will not overcome Borderline PD. If I had known about schema years ago things may have been different. I had a 'near miss' with my first CBT therapist in that the RELATIONSHIP I had with my therapist turbocharged the CBT. This is typical of treating BPD with schema therapy, where the relationship is the core healing element. I didnt realise it at the time and spent years trying to get that back, knocking on the wrong door of ONLY MY OBVIOUS, SURFACE SYMPTOMS - depression and anxiety.

And I think thats the point - everyone has to find their own path. To try one thing, and then another. If there is no one in your life to help yu keep going when you have a failure, then it is much much harder. It means picking yourself up and going again. For me that was always easy because of my obsession with becoming all that i felt I could be. i dont know where that drive came from, but Im glad it was there.

I think that it helps to learn to understand other peoples views. SAS has, painfully - taught me the importance of this. There are methods and approcahes and therapies out there that can help people - many people. But its not as simple as just getting into therapy. There are many more factors that make even that seem impossible, there are many other factors that work against getting better - and these are a part if each persons humanity. Everyone has unique struggles, but everyone needs to be understood and to feel that their pain is understood, and no one should be criticised for being WHEREVER THEY ARE on that recovery spectrum.

I have got frustrated here many times, but I have learned that when I do I have something to learn at that time. People have been frustrated with me in exactly the same way in the past, but it was not until I felt LISTENED TO that finally I began to make progress.

CBT theraspists that lack the 'human touch' tend to want to apply only technique, without realising they are dealing with a PERSON. The approaches can work - but if the person is not heard, the therapy will be far harder as the person feels "this guy just isnt listening to me - he's stuck up his own ***".

For me I have learned that if I want to help people, I need to listen to them and unserstand what they feel and need before anything else. Thats hard to do on a website with 1000's of people, but for sure the guys here who ARE making progress have a valuable lesson to learn - to empathise, understand and see the person behind the post. I think that would bring some big changes here.

Anyways good post Ted

Ross

Excellent post!