Younger women

[RubyTuesday]

>>>first: be patient< my computer is all messed up for some reason< including the caps lock key> (A full stop is a > for example)

anyhow>>> i believe i"m going through a new life phase regarding sex< romance and relationships>

for example< i"ve been attending a job search workshop< # days a week full time>>> and there is a trainer there< who is a bit tough< and has a slightly pushy presence< but is otherwise really great> he gets people motivated and he"s good with people> a doer type>

though he"s quite overweight i am a little attracted to him< though now it"s mostly just a friendly thing> he"s intelligent and clever> but just last week a new job searcher came< a young woman who is pretty>

they flirt with one another _which is fine< except that i discover to my bemusement that some thing deep within me is a little angered by it> almost like the reptilian part of my brain is outraged!! >>>which is kind of funny>

basically the facts are that< though i don"t particularly like him< in fact i tend to develop little crushes rather frequently on for any male who"s personality i like (looks just don"t hit the same mark with me and i probably am initially attracted to confidence most)>

>>>but it occurs to me that because i was pretty in my early and mid twenties< that i was actually used to getting attention from males> and< though i could look good now< i get the impression that in fact it"s harder for me to> that i look tired at lot more often and that< really< i won"t have that fresh faced appearance that came so easily in my @)s and teenage years (i meant to say twenties< but i can"t use numbers and my computer won"t let me correct it for some reason!!!!! ugh! as if the lack of emoticons on the new board wasn"t enough!)

so< in summary!!! (sorry)>>>> i wanted to say that i believe i"m entering a new phase> oNe in which i am just facing growing older and am reassessing< not only the types of males i"d be romantically interested in< but even just simply what my "image" is and more general and initial kind of attractiveness>

>>>basically: i don"t believe i"ve got it really< anymore> or at least< it just won"t be near as good> a bit frustrating considering i barely lived or socialized throughout my twenties

>>>however< i figure that that aside< this is something that all women eventually will experience< even if they"re youthfulness and looks are more enduring than mine (i>e> five to several years longer at most)

so i"m going through a readjustment phase< i figure _one way or another_ and i"m really thinking about what type of male i want to bother being intimate with> and otherwise< i am really just trying to accept how quickly something like youth and looks can go>
it is a little sorrowful if i really think about it< but mostly it is a bit of a shock _going from getting attention and actually being fooled (since it"s all you had known up till then) to not getting it> and not having experience not having had it< you cannot help but confuse it to some extent with people really liking you as a person>

i"m adjusting to all of that> but i"m not bitter about it since i figure that this is just a change> >>>also< i figure that in a sense it is a good thing< since i would like to sort through my priorities >>>using your looks is definetly crappy< but on the other hand< getting past such things and being more involved in other and more involved and down to earth aspects of relationships is actually pretty good> >>>what i mean is< that i am actually kind of getting tired of all of that "looks" stuff >>>it"s for people in their twenties< who< with all due respect> don"t have strongly developed personalities or sense of self and they also look the best they ever will>

>>>in fact< i saw one of tHe golden girls< i believe say a line about women she worked with who were in their twenties>>> "you know the age when you don"t have to be pretty to be pretty" >>>and it"s so true

[Hot Chocolate]

Well, I am in my early twenties but I also do worry about how am I gonna cope when I start losing my looks or the ability to lose weight easily since getting older doing all these is much harder. But I suspect that the older one gets, the more settled one will be and not rushing into things and doing it all at the same time. I think that's the plus point in getting older.

But I do admit I don't look good right now. I still need some work done and it's easier to do it now. But I don't know seriously. I mean have zero social life. I have expectations about what guys should be like and I know it's unfair to me and others. But I just can't hook up with a person that I don't like. I would suffer miserably than what I am right now. So I guess my current situation is still better off.

Like they said, you can't have everything in life, you just have to make full use of what we have currently. I do also crave for relationships but ultimately, if I am doing what I love...relationship is only secondary. There are actually much more to life than just attracting guys and having babies.

[RubyTuesday]

thanks for the response_

as I said_ i"m kind of going through an adaption phase here_ still adjusting to changes to my appearance and self image_

it"s unusual because_ on the one hand it is depressing and getting older looking happened pretty quickly_ certainly too fast than i was ready for_ and having had a pretty poor social life throughout my twenties certainly doesn"t make it seem less of an abrupt alteration_

but then there are other things going on_ for instance_ there is the fact that i"ve never been one interested in casual relationships and instead i"ve always wanted a strong monogamous kind_ even when i was young and pretty i was put off and distrustful of men going for looks at the same time that i revelled in it_

that"s just the truth_ and in fact_ looking at the real lack of responses to this thread of mine sort of is an indication _it just is a big preoccupation for people_ getting older and especially looks_

at the same time that people sort of avoid going anywhere near such a topic _it is likewise a crappy experience to lose this period of your life
_and yet for this same reason_ it"s actually not at all necessarily such a bad thing to go through_

i"ve always wanted a really great relationship with one person or maybe a few_ but really great relationships that come from having an incredible rapport with a person_ and if i"m honest with my self in asking: am i swayed by looks? i"d have to answer yes i am and was_

it"s like being a player but being played at the same time_ and likewise_losing looks is kind of like a blessing when i consider that i"ve always wanted a really great relationship and that i"m also at a stage in life when i want to settle down more and not be bothered with the more superficial aspects of love and romance_

at the very least_ psychologically i actually want to give up being preocuppied and otherwise (particularly) swayed by physical appearance_ i don"t want a relationship based on this sort of thing_ it wouldn"t be good enough_ but i don"t think i"d have quite enough character to give up such values and temptation if i weren"t getting ugly(er) my self_ that"s just a matter of fact

having said that: i"m not a total hag just yet_ its a lot harder to look good now for me though_ and maybe to a certain degree i"m actually making up my mind to not view my self as "youngish" etc because i want to give up an attachment to such values

i don"t want to be in my twenties anymore_ when such things sway people_ partly because its just fun and also because you look your best at this time and some other reasons as well_ but i don"t want to be so much at this phase _ and one reason is actually because at this age i viewed someone at thirty as being more_or_less "over_the_hill" ___which now seems really ridiculous to me _particularly given how quickly i"ve experienced time passing_ (it seems to have gotten faster with each year after about twenty one or twenty two)

_in any case_ it"s hard (if not near impossible) to give up the ego_ so that is why i figure this experience of looking older and getting older is kind of good because it forces me to give up an attachment to things that_ in reality_ i actually don"t want to be attached to_ i don"t want any romantic relationship that i have to be made up mostly of a bond based on physical attraction_ i"m not giving up any fun or excitement that physical things mean_ but i don"t want to be swayed by them at the expense of other things that i actually would rather my life be more about_

and i doubt that i could really pull that off so well if i weren"t experiencing not having good looks_

and another thing _ i don"t want to bother going down a path of bitterness and distrust towards men_ with their somewhat greater preoccupation with looks_ since_ in reality_ they aren"t actually more preoccupied with looks than women are_ "the player" and "the played" aren"t really different from one another since really they just swap and take turns_ or_ what i mean is that a man is really just a woman with a bit more opportunity

_strip that opportunity away and you have yourself the same person_ still either focussed on looks more or a set of values more particular about people_ what i"m saying is that i don"t think it really matters what other people value since i"ll choose a guy who is either more looks_focussed or chemistry_personality focussed_ depending on whether i am_ and i don"t want to be

[Perfectionist]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

>>>in fact< i saw one of tHe golden girls< i believe say a line about women she worked with who were in their twenties>>> "you know the age when you don"t have to be pretty to be pretty" >>>and it"s so true

Just had to say I think that is a marvellous, marvellous quote and will be using it from now on.

I tried to comment on your post but it just didn't come out right. I'm 20 so I can't really comment on aging without sounding painfully naive. But it was definitely an interesting read, and I think it's cool how much you've analyzed your reactions to physical appearance and relationships for this stage of your life.

[RubyTuesday]

I think one fairly big factor is really just a lack of a social life as well as a boy friend_
_without such things_ you just think a little more about initial attraction cos that"s mostly all that you get to observe or_ if you"re lucky_ experience_
this is easily the suckiest bit of all_ but can"t do anything about the past nor all the **** i went through

thanks for the comment_ and that is a pretty cool quote from TGG _the show rocks even years after

[Atticus]

I can relate to much of what you say. While societal expectations for women's beauty are higher than they are for men, most men struggle with various aspects of aging and or appearance. I certainly have.

I started losing my hair in my early 20s. 21 is as early in your 20s as it gets. This was devastating to my self image. It changed how I though about myself socially, schlastically, and professionally. I had never dated and I felt very much like my youth had been stolen from me. 30 years later, I still have dreams that I have hair. Those dreams are mostly funny now, but they were heartbreaking the first 10 years or so.

Fast forward to my late 40s when I become single again. I've pretty well adjusted to being bald. There are a number of things I'd change about my appearance, but overall I'm pretty happy with how I look at 51, and there are women I'm attracted to who are physically attracted to me. But these past several years I've discovered how much many women in my age group cling to rigid gender role ideas regarding men's income and assets.

Discovering that women who might have seen a possible future with me didn't because I wasn't well off probably shouldn't have surprised me. Most women my age aren't dependent on a man finacially, but in many cases their mothers were. Their values were at least partly shaped by the idea that men are the primary bread winners. That's a rational explanation, but I really struggled with how I ought to feel about all of this, and still do.

Losing my hair never actually hurt my appearance the way I thought it would, and struggling financially, at least compared to what people (and I'm a people) seem to expect, hasn't made me a social leper. But these things were and are handy reasons to indulge in some self pity or to explain away struggles that have more to do with self perceptions than with any judgements from without. Most of my regrets involve the limits I placed on myself.

So for all the surface differences between us, I think I understand what you're going through.

[RubyTuesday]

Originally Posted by Atticus

I can relate to much of what you say. While societal expectations for women's beauty are higher than they are for men, most men struggle with various aspects of aging and or appearance. I certainly have.

I started losing my hair in my early 20s. 21 is as early in your 20s as it gets. This was devastating to my self image. It changed how I though about myself socially, schlastically, and professionally. I had never dated and I felt very much like my youth had been stolen from me. 30 years later, I still have dreams that I have hair. Those dreams are mostly funny now, but they were heartbreaking the first 10 years or so.

Fast forward to my late 40s when I become single again. I've pretty well adjusted to being bald. There are a number of things I'd change about my appearance, but overall I'm pretty happy with how I look at 51, and there are women I'm attracted to who are physically attracted to me. But these past several years I've discovered how much many women in my age group cling to rigid gender role ideas regarding men's income and assets.

Discovering that women who might have seen a possible future with me didn't because I wasn't well off probably shouldn't have surprised me. Most women my age aren't dependent on a man finacially, but in many cases their mothers were. Their values were at least partly shaped by the idea that men are the primary bread winners. That's a rational explanation, but I really struggled with how I ought to feel about all of this, and still do.

Losing my hair never actually hurt my appearance the way I thought it would, and struggling financially, at least compared to what people (and I'm a people) seem to expect, hasn't made me a social leper. But these things were and are handy reasons to indulge in some self pity or to explain away struggles that have more to do with self perceptions than with any judgements from without. Most of my regrets involve the limits I placed on myself.

So for all the surface differences between us, I think I understand what you're going through.

thanks for the reply.

Still, I have to ask: Can you at all relate to never having been in a relationship at age 30. Because that, probably more than anything else, is what's most depressing. The other things are just like the extra bit.

I'm tired of this. I don't deserve to be so neglected and forgotten. Like I haven't gone through enough.

I'm going to get drunk and listen to music. The world sucks. My life is a piece of ****

[Bon]

Let's look at this another way. Yes, youth is lovely, it truly is. However, who says that beauty is only for the young.

I think so much depends on attitude. I'm in my forties, and I do OK, better than when I was younger. Younger men ask me out (I don't go, but I don't go with men my own age or older either....). I think I've improved with age. I must say, so much of my outgoingness seems to be fake, drains me cause I'm scared on the inside most of the time, BUT, I know attitude makes a difference.

Believe in yourself;-) Also so much is circumstance, just for example, the man you spoke of, this woman works with him, they've had time to form a friendship.

People say I am flirting all the time when I'm joking around, then I wouldn't know if someone was flirting with me, I have to be hit over the head with a baseball bat.

Now, Madison Ave likes us to believe that people in their teens, 20's are the only people out there, that's so not true. Again, they have the money to spend on advertisement, I sure hope this changes someday.

I know what it's like to feel the brunt of aging, but for me, it's more in career than looks, other than weight, I'm actually quite happy with myself.

Try this.....When your in between ages. I'm old enough to date someone ten year younger, and ten years older........Now, there's this father that keeps asking me out, and he's in his 50s, his son is in his mid thirties, and he has asked me out, neither knows... I would prefer to go out with the son, he's more......I don't know....But I won't go out with either, because of the situation, so unfair;-) When I would go out, I "can't."

[millenniumman75]

RubyT,

You know we get better with age . A lot of the immaturity disappears. We haev also seen things that others have actually been blind to - the classic thirdparty stuff. I can tell which relationships will work and which won't.

And YES, I do know what it is like to be 30 and never been in a relationship.

[Atticus]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

thanks for the reply.

Still, I have to ask: Can you at all relate to never having been in a relationship at age 30. Because that, probably more than anything else, is what's most depressing. The other things are just like the extra bit.

I'm tired of this. I don't deserve to be so neglected and forgotten. Like I haven't gone through enough.

I'm going to get drunk and listen to music. The world sucks. My life is a piece of ****

Sorry you're feeling so rotten. I thought your post was about feeling left behind, or feeling left out romantically. I can very much relate to that. That I claim to be able to relate seems to irritate you, though, which isn't my intent. Hope you feel better soon.

[BostonB]

I'll just say that women do get better with age. I haven't dated a woman less than 3 years older since I was in high school. My favorite person in the world is a 34 year old woman who I was dating until 2 months ago. It didn't really work out...our disorders just didn't match up. I just find that women my own age are confused and don't know what they want in life. Most of them are just staring to enter the "real world", but none of them seem to know what that means.

[WineKitty]

Ruby, you are only 30!!!

When I turned 30 (ahem....ten years ago ) I went through the my youth is behind me kind of thinking. But rest assured, your 30s are a great time and you are still young and freshfaced from the pics that I have seen. You are just barely out of your 20s, look at it that way. And the wisdom one has in their 30s versus their 20s is worth a ton of gold if you ask me. I wouldnt want to be 20 again if my life depended on it.

At 40, I think I am finally not getting carded for booze anymore so I guess I must be looking a bit older. I have had somewhat of a meltdown about turning 40 but not for the reasons of how I look but rather where I am at, what have I done, is where I am really where I want to be, time is no longer on my side....

You sound somewhat like I have these days, focus on the days ahead, you cannot turn back the clock. Dont worry about or compare yourself to a girl in her early 20s. If that is a deciding factor for a man, you wouldnt want anyone that shallow anyway.

[EremitaGermanus]

Originally Posted by RubyTuesday

(...)Can you at all relate to never having been in a relationship at age 30.(...)

Yes, I can.

But in contrast to you I seem to have grown more content with myself the last year or so. I've come closer to making peace with many things and with accepting other things as unalterable facts. It's a thing of letting go and finding sensible alternatives.

I also find that I'm more and more relaxed when in company with the opposite sex because I don't expect anything of them and I'm convinced they don't expect anything of me.

I've also noticed that age is very slowly showing, but I can't say I find it all that dramatic yet. These days I start to worry more about staying fit and healthy. That is of more concern to me considering being and staying alone.

I never occupied myself much with looks. Though from adolescence on I didn't feel comfortable with myself but objectively I believe I don't look bad, but simply nothing special. Aside from a short period in my early/mid twenties I don't think I never seriously had any urge for a relationship. That picture of myself kind of doesn't exist in my head.

My main goal at the moment is becoming an idependent and content woman despite SA and not be consumed with romantic thoughts. I believe for me and my personal situation that is a better investment of effort and energy.

[RubyTuesday]

Thanks for everyone's input and suggestions

I actually wasn't irritated at what you wrote, Atticus, just upset -every so often I figure I want to cry and express my frustration and loneliness. I kind of prefer to get it out sometimes rather than just keep going or even being "positive". So I wasn't offended.
...I guess I am a bit of a "horse" that in Chinese astrology goes by whims a little.

Today I felt good; and partly cos I reckon my self indulgence with alcohol and music let me get out my feelings. ...but I had a lot of fun just hanging out at that job place with all the others looking for work.

It's been some time since I've been so at ease and had such easy fun with people -and it's Fantastic. ...normal stuff like this, when you go without cos of crap anxiety, well I reckon that not having this basic interaction stuff does your self esteem in more than anything. Even more than not having a close relationship. And at least there's the chance of one when you're meeting and chatting to people.

And I had a good job interview today. The lady seemed to like my answers. She even told me, after I had told her about my anxiety disorder, that she had one for two years and understood what it was like!! ...wow! -maybe my sister is right when she said to me, that probably every person has some close connection with anxiety, either themselves or in their close circle.

And the funny thing that happened today with that Job Trainer and that young woman. Well, this time round he was blatantly flirting with her -really over-the-top. He was 'helping' her with her resume, and on numerous occasions kept saying to her to use the terms: "physical pleasure" and "stimulation and excitement". He isn't the "sleazy" kind but apparently even she was uncomfortable or otherwise put off -since she sort of cut him off eventually -since he kept going on and on! ...this other guy asked him for his help, and the young woman said: "Oh, you can take him. I don't want him anymore." ...and the job trainer got a little cut!

It was sort of funny. ...he is actually engaged to be married. ...I have to wonder to my self whether he'd flirt so much with another girl if he wasn't in a serious relationship...

I mean, I figure that a little bit of flirting when you're taken is fine and no big deal. But certain things I don't think are quite right or at the very least, a little suss.

[CoconutHolder]

Its okay because, you see, many guys prefer older women and visa versa. Look at Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher (dang she is so lucky). I think the thing behind that is, a woman's libido reaches its heights a bit later, while the men folk are at their peaks a bit earlier. Really I don't know when men's peaks are.... 17 to 70 maybe? jk I don't know. :P
Don't listen to me, I'm just ramblin' right now and probably not saying anything useful. Sorry.

You are sexy. Age is sexy. Sexy is as sexy does.


Okay now I'm thinking of a part from Tommy Boy ( was watching it last night ) that may have nothing to do with this but does include the term "men folk" here ya go:

Frank Rittenhauer: If this factory goes under, the whole town goes under.
Boardroom Woman (she's a lady in her 80's or so): That's when the Wh***s come in.
Paul: Excuse me, what was that?
Boardroom Woman: Men laying their trick-money down. Twenty dollars to pay the rent? Maybe not. Maybe instead I'll spend it on the Wh***.
------------------
Boardroom Woman: Wh***s running around, doing their little behind-shake for the men folk...
Richard Hayden: I kinda like her idea.
Boardroom Man (boardroom woman's husband): For Christ's sake. Once during the war I visited a prostitute, and my life has been a living hell ever since.

[RubyTuesday]

I sort of think that society is really completely obsessed with looks and likewise youth.

It's crazy and dumb considering how shortlived such things are. -I mean, even the most beautiful of people only have their looks for so long before some other up-coming star usurps them.

I just think that it would be nicer living in a society that placed at least as much value on other things like a person's gumption, resourcefulness, witt, sense of humor, vitality, character, independence, altruism, compassion... etc.

One thing that's stuck in my head was how Princess Diana died in the same week as Mother Theresa. ...yet, whilst one was actually a saint, who really devoted her life to the welfare of others, the more glamorous pretty and young one -who, whilst she did do some amount of good work, still pales greatly by comparison to what Mother Theresa did- got such an overload of media attention, tears, public hysteria and flowers. ...and which is still continuing a decade after her death.

...Now to me, that is the true "Princess Diana Conspiracy" ...the fact that she frankly wasn't so wonderful and yet so very many people made out as if she was.

...And it's just another demonstration of how beauty, glamor and youth are so valued by our society. Whilst those people who are truly valuable to the human race get overlooked.

-Then again ...I guess that's "How the cookie crumbles" ...that it's all part of why the people who really do good things in this world (e.g. the aid workers out in the Solomon Islands helping female survivors of domestic abuse, the doctors and nurses volunteering their time to attend to malnourished children in various parts of Africa, and of course the aid workers who get killed and murdered but who hardly anyone knows their names) ...are good or certainly at the very least really passionate and dedicated.
...I couldn't sacrifice that much. Hell no! ...but some people do, and I guess that for them, it doesn't particularly matter that no body really notices them.

..."Princess Diana" ...I say: "****!! Who the hell was she??!!"

[CoconutHolder]

I know what you mean. Do you notice the same things happens even with missing children? The more beautiful ones are the ones you'll hear about, that will be all over the tv and such. Yet many children/young adults are abducted that you'll never hear about.


It is a weird thing, the whole "attractiveness" thing. All I can say, is really, not everyone is as vain to only take someone's appearance into consideration. WE are all human and really, looks fade, just like you said. Looks and our bodies are transitory. I really think its more important to build your own personality, be a person YOU truely like and do good things for others who need help.

Just like you are doing with your new job. That is incredible for you to do. It bothers me to no end how many ppl get into these kind of jobs and abuse the elders. But someone like you, will treat them with respect and love/caring. I think doing things like that could definitely build your confidence.

I don't think the beautiful ppl will get any less attention in the future so its something I guess we just have to deal with. Realizing that TRUE beauty comes from the inside and shines outward. ( I know that is cliche to say but its true) It does no good to be good looking and be shallow/vain/narcissistic.

[kaye]

hi,

I know it's sad to "lose your looks," to change and I know what it's like to not get that attention anymore. Suddenly in the grocery people called me "maam" instead of "miss" and I was so needing to be still having my miss status.

I have been through the "I'm not young anymore," pain, for sure, feeling just searingly insecure, I won't say more than that. And as time passed I found ways to adjust to what is, to do what I could.

I also have felt the pain of "I was young and I never had..." well at least you know you're not the only one! But this is a toughy. I finally bought myself an engagement type ring, and I wear it whenever I want! ; ) So screw it I've got the ring.

Nowadays I still try to look good, but am no longer focused on partnership as a life goal. I'm focusing on other goals. I've adjusted to being older. I've made the adjustment. And it wasn't easy. But, I still look pretty good, I'm pretty healthy, and life is rich with other things besides having someone (a stranger) think you're desirable or pretty.

I agree that in the media this issue has gotten way distorted, blown up out of proper proportion, excuse the pun, and women all over get artificial this-and-that trying to copy those phony images! argh. So focused on objectifying women and making them look pretty and usually artificial.

Also I admit I tell myself I'm not actually aging, that every day my body renews itself, it's constantly rebuilding itself, and that aging as we've known it has been created, exaggerated by the mind focusing on it. So I tell myself, and I feel better. : )

Madonna is 50. ! So I tell myself. She's older than me : )

Another thing is to just focus on health, vitality. If someone is engaged in what they're doing, happy, they look more attractive because they're more vital, more alive. So you can accept that we all age from the first second of life! But it's about being vitally alive in this moment, being healthy, and so looking good! Being your best!

The other downer is that men are ageist. They will go for women younger, and discount women even their own age. Still the best defense is to love yourself and just get fully engaged with your life, and you will look your most vital. Maybe not as fresh as a young woman, but maybe more sexy, more confident.

[kaylarose]

if u look tired it might be because of your lifestyle and that u are tired..........i think women of all ages can be beautiful/attractive and not just early 20's..even tho i know where ur coming from i still think it means very little.

Attraction to a woman stems so much more than just "youth", experience, sex appeal, confidence, looking after yourself, nice hair, fit body etc is better than just being "young".

i'm late 20's and get mistaken for early 20's a lot but it means nothing to me..

[LALoner]

Men definetely care about age, there is no reason to deny it or think that will ever change. An older woman has fewer, if any kids left in her and so evolution instructs men to devalue them. Thats the way it is.