What's the point? and why play the game?

[Knowbody]

I'm obviously not religious, I don't believe that we're all here for a purpose and that there's meaning to our individual existence. I don't have the comfort of knowing that everyone I've known and loved in life will be with me after I die. The only real thing stopping me from ending it randomly are the small things like films I want to see, books, music, video games etc. If I had kids then I suppose that would be another reason for me to continue on but at the moment I don;t understand why we do it. Existence is meaningless.....There's really no point to it at all. With all our wisdom, technology and intellect we're still just hairless apes living on a rock that the rest of the universe probably has no idea exist. I'm not advocating that we all commit mass suicide but I also really can't argue against it. I haven't really done much in the last 2 years. Any other time I would be ashamed but when I realize that nothing even matters in the long run I cease to care. Everyone alive in 1873 is dead now and soon the same will be said for 2012. In short what I'm asking you people is "WHY?" Why was I born a human and not some other animal? Why was I born Asian or Black or Hispanic or white, Why this part of the world and not that? Why this century and not hundreds of years ago? Everything just seems like random chance and chaos that we have zero control over to me..........sorry for my insane rambling.........

[Who]

It's true we all live and die.
I believe the only thing we can do is to enjoy our lives.
Like you say, all the little things - movies, books, video games etc.
See my siggie. It's a true and honest nursery rhyme.
Just live your life merrily and in the end you've lived your life like a dream instead of a nightmare

[Voyager]

I am an atheist and I have considered this as well, my reason for continuing and not ending it is my family and few friends. Without them I wouldn't think twice about it, it's quite sad to not actually live for yourself but for others.

I can not answer your question about why, you have to make your own conclusions with the information you've got. I am sorry if this seems harsh . I am in the same boat.

[The Silent 1]

I understand what your saying, but heres something to consider. You say existence is meaningless, but what exactly would it mean for existence to have an ultimate meaning or point? Does that even make sense? Meaning is a subjective term, nothing means the same to everyone, so it really makes no sense for life to have an ultimate meaning. Even if a deity created us for a specific purpose, theres nothing to say we would have to accept that purpose.

It may sometimes seem depressing to realize life has no meaning other than what you give it, but thats also liberating to know your free to give your life whatever meaning you chose. As for all the "whys" that you ask, I'm not sure that question quite makes sense either. You are you because the dna from your parents combined to create a new human being. But it really sounds like your asking for some greater reason, but the question you ask may honestly be nonsensical. Its like asking why mountains exist. I could give you an explanation based on how the Earth formed, but that might not satisfy you if your looking for some deeper meaning that doesn't exist.

The only way you could ask "why" is if you accept that theres some deity that created mountains for some purpose, but even then is the intended purpose of the creator the final word? If we find some other purpose for mountains outside of what the creator intended does that change the ultimate meaning of the mountains?

As meaning is subjective, it can't be talked about in objective terms, not in the large sense imo.

[Dr House]

I live, because that is what I did yesterday, and the day before that. That's all I have to say.

[Quinn the Eskimo]

you can be okay with accepting life as being a feeble mass of bones, skin, and blood that will certainly eventually die. you can be okay with the fact that there is no meaning to anything that we waste all of our time, days, and nights worrying about pointless trivial things. you can accept that this earth that you call home is one of trillions, and the human race you are so familiar with is also just one of trillions. insignificant.

or you can change your mind about it and learn more. dont buy into all of that stuff being all there is to you. all there is to life. I have felt, this entire life, that there was more to know than this bull crap. thats the point and thats the game.

[Quinn the Eskimo]

Originally Posted by The Silent 1

I understand what your saying, but heres something to consider. You say existence is meaningless, but what exactly would it mean for existence to have an ultimate meaning or point? Does that even make sense? Meaning is a subjective term, nothing means the same to everyone, so it really makes no sense for life to have an ultimate meaning. Even if a deity created us for a specific purpose, theres nothing to say we would have to accept that purpose.

in my opinion you can have meaning without it being subjective, or a set purpose

meaning, to me, is more like a feeling. a deep warmth that abides in all minds. meaning isn't a logical rational explanation. its just what we live for. what we desire and strive for.

thats not to say that I think there is any meaning to anything that people do here in the universe, no thats not what Im saying. In fact I will be the first person to say that all the meanings people have given this universe and things in this universe are made up.

[The Silent 1]

Originally Posted by Quinn the Eskimo

in my opinion you can have meaning without it being subjective, or a set purpose

meaning, to me, is more like a feeling. a deep warmth that abides in all minds. meaning isn't a logical rational explanation. its just what we live for. what we desire and strive for.

thats not to say that I think there is any meaning to anything that people do here in the universe, no thats not what Im saying. In fact I will be the first person to say that all the meanings people have given this universe and things in this universe are made up.

My point was that meaning is always subjective. Saying that it is a feeling goes inline with that. Can you give an example where it wouldn't be subjective?

[Knowbody]

howcome spacebar doesn't work for me on these forums anymore? testing.. testing ...edit: I guess its because I have no scripts running, I've noticed I can't use smileys neither.

[Knowbody]

Originally Posted by The Silent 1

I understand what your saying, but heres something to consider. You say existence is meaningless, but what exactly would it mean for existence to have an ultimate meaning or point? Does that even make sense? Meaning is a subjective term, nothing means the same to everyone, so it really makes no sense for life to have an ultimate meaning. Even if a deity created us for a specific purpose, theres nothing to say we would have to accept that purpose.

It may sometimes seem depressing to realize life has no meaning other than what you give it, but thats also liberating to know your free to give your life whatever meaning you chose. As for all the "whys" that you ask, I'm not sure that question quite makes sense either. You are you because the dna from your parents combined to create a new human being. But it really sounds like your asking for some greater reason, but the question you ask may honestly be nonsensical. Its like asking why mountains exist. I could give you an explanation based on how the Earth formed, but that might not satisfy you if your looking for some deeper meaning that doesn't exist.

The only way you could ask "why" is if you accept that theres some deity that created mountains for some purpose, but even then is the intended purpose of the creator the final word? If we find some other purpose for mountains outside of what the creator intended does that change the ultimate meaning of the mountains?

As meaning is subjective, it can't be talked about in objective terms, not in the large sense imo.

I would probably put more effort into meeting people and doing something with my life is I knew that my soul would continue on for eternity and I'll be mingling with these people for a long time now and after death. Since I don't subscribe to religious ideas like that it then renders everything a waste of time. I don't mind wasting my days, not meeting someone and getting married anymore because its all going to end eventually anyway, everything, even this planet and our sun. A corpse doesn't look bad at his/her life and shows nostalgia or regret. It doesn't feel anything. Now I see why religion is important for a functioning society. Yes some strong minded people would still be able to look on the bright side and cherish the moment without religion but for the rest of weak minded folks we need something to help us keep going, even if it's a bold face lie. I kind of hate myself for having enough logic and reason to realize that just about every religion is a myth. Everyone isn't built for the truth, somethings curiosity can kill the cat. That's where I'm basically at right now. I've been trying to fill the void of emptiness by reading books existential philosophy and Buddhism. It helps sometimes but when I'm idle and left alone to think I start feeling like I did in the original post again. Then I end up reading up on suicide techniques and watching BBC documentaries like Terry Pratchett's "Choosing to die". I usually keep quiet about this because its ammo for religious people to say look we must be right because they're (atheist) miserable. Truth be told, if I could somehow force myself to subscribe to some of those religious ideas I've been brought up on I most certainly would. However I can't because I wouldn't be intellectually honest with myself. It would be like trying to convince a 60 yr old man/woman that Santa Clause still exists. You just can't believe in something you know is not true. Emotionally I still wish it was true, yet I can't let my emotions override cognitive thought no matter how comfortable it would make me feel. I know many people who are able to do this easily though, and I envy them in an ignorance is bliss kind of way.

[The Sleeping Dragon]

I live for family, friends and pleasure. Besides I get to non exist for billions of years. What is another 60 years compared to that?

[Quinn the Eskimo]

Originally Posted by The Silent 1

My point was that meaning is always subjective. Saying that it is a feeling goes inline with that. Can you give an example where it wouldn't be subjective?

well I guess you're right, when you view it from your perspective, but the belief in objectivity says that there is an entire realm of things that exist independent of the mind

when you understand that all is in the mind then there is no objectivity. ask yourself why there was a movement to move away from subjective thinking. our whole experience of life is always subjective (if you choose to split things up into subjective/objective) isn't it wise to figure things out that way than listen to what school, news, and other media tell you?

there is no danger in considering things outside of those realms. in using your own experience to learn. what else do we have? a bunch of facts and measurements that we say are true? a bunch of scientific laws? and how true are they? doesn't all of what we know about science break down when we go into the quantam field? there is no knowledge in this, just random facts and measurements and specificity, and you can follow out this way of thinking until the end of time but its not going to solve anything.

sure, we shouldn't listen to someone's crazy story about a giant lizard king that implanted our bodies with cotton pills, but that's common sense - we don't need to split things up into subjective/objective just to guard against that. when we discard all subjectivity though, we become more machine than man, and discard the most important element to the pursuit of all knowledge - US! we are the ones existing here and experiencing! and that means a lot!

[The Silent 1]

Originally Posted by Quinn the Eskimo

well I guess you're right, when you view it from your perspective, but the belief in objectivity says that there is an entire realm of things that exist independent of the mind

when you understand that all is in the mind then there is no objectivity. ask yourself why there was a movement to move away from subjective thinking. our whole experience of life is always subjective (if you choose to split things up into subjective/objective) isn't it wise to figure things out that way than listen to what school, news, and other media tell you?

there is no danger in considering things outside of those realms. in using your own experience to learn. what else do we have? a bunch of facts and measurements that we say are true? a bunch of scientific laws? and how true are they? doesn't all of what we know about science break down when we go into the quantam field? there is no knowledge in this, just random facts and measurements and specificity, and you can follow out this way of thinking until the end of time but its not going to solve anything.

sure, we shouldn't listen to someone's crazy story about a giant lizard king that implanted our bodies with cotton pills, but that's common sense - we don't need to split things up into subjective/objective just to guard against that. when we discard all subjectivity though, we become more machine than man, and discard the most important element to the pursuit of all knowledge - US! we are the ones existing here and experiencing! and that means a lot!

I'm talking about meaning as in the purpose of significance of something. Now something can have an intended meaning, but someone else may find another meaning within it. Something may be significant to you and I, but not to someone else. Meaning is always subjective and I don't really see anything in your post that attempts to argue this fact.

As to your other point you say there is no objectivity. I think are shared perceptions is what defines objectivity. We can determine whats there and whats not by performing experiments with different people to verify it. We also have machines that can determine things independent of human perception. Are you saying you don't believe in logical absolutes?

[Knowbody]

eff it, lets all commit "that" right now............I'm bored

who else is with me?


kidding





sorta

[squidd]

I believe that everything is inherently meaningless, nothing has value except for what you yourself give value. When nothing you do matters then every thing you do matters because the mere fact that anything can occur is so amazing and fleeting that words cannot begin to describe it.

[Droidsteel]

Im not making a joke here:

'All we have to do, is to decide what to do with the time that is given to us.'

-Gandalf

[The Silent 1]

Originally Posted by Knowbody

I would probably put more effort into meeting people and doing something with my life is I knew that my soul would continue on for eternity and I'll be mingling with these people for a long time now and after death. Since I don't subscribe to religious ideas like that it then renders everything a waste of time. I don't mind wasting my days, not meeting someone and getting married anymore because its all going to end eventually anyway, everything, even this planet and our sun. A corpse doesn't look bad at his/her life and shows nostalgia or regret. It doesn't feel anything. Now I see why religion is important for a functioning society. Yes some strong minded people would still be able to look on the bright side and cherish the moment without religion but for the rest of weak minded folks we need something to help us keep going, even if it's a bold face lie. I kind of hate myself for having enough logic and reason to realize that just about every religion is a myth. Everyone isn't built for the truth, somethings curiosity can kill the cat. That's where I'm basically at right now. I've been trying to fill the void of emptiness by reading books existential philosophy and Buddhism. It helps sometimes but when I'm idle and left alone to think I start feeling like I did in the original post again. Then I end up reading up on suicide techniques and watching BBC documentaries like Terry Pratchett's "Choosing to die". I usually keep quiet about this because its ammo for religious people to say look we must be right because they're (atheist) miserable. Truth be told, if I could somehow force myself to subscribe to some of those religious ideas I've been brought up on I most certainly would. However I can't because I wouldn't be intellectually honest with myself. It would be like trying to convince a 60 yr old man/woman that Santa Clause still exists. You just can't believe in something you know is not true. Emotionally I still wish it was true, yet I can't let my emotions override cognitive thought no matter how comfortable it would make me feel. I know many people who are able to do this easily though, and I envy them in an ignorance is bliss kind of way.

I can somewhat understand what you mean when you say ignorance is bliss. Its probably nice for many people to have that knowledge that your life has a specific goal or was created for some purpose. But what your describing is the basis for where a lot of existensilism thought comes from.

But again I would ask you, what if you are going to live forever? According to most religions all you have to do is bow to god to go to this afterlife. It doesn't matter then if you get married or see that new movie or whatever. So the question is then, would you really live your life much differently if there was an afterlife? I assume your a generally moral person and don't need god to tell you to treat people well. If this was your only life would that not make it a bit more precious? How does an eternal afterlife suddenly give your life a point? What would be the point of living forever? Whats the point of anything?

[Ohhai]

"I am perfectly confident that I could never adequately convey to any other human being the precise reasons why I continue to refrain from suicide—the reasons, that is, why I still find existence enough of a compensation to atone for its dominantly burthensome quality. These reasons are strongly linked with architecture, scenery, and lighting and atmospheric effects, and take the form of vague impressions of adventurous expectancy coupled with elusive memory—impressions that certain vistas, particularly those associated with sunsets, are avenues of approach to spheres or conditions of wholly undefined delights and freedoms which I have known in the past and have a slender possibility of knowing again in the future. Just what those delights and freedoms are, or even what they approximately resemble, I could not concretely imagine to save my life; save that they seem to concern some ethereal quality of indefinite expansion and mobility, and of a heightened perception which shall make all forms and combinations of beauty simultaneously visible to me, and realisable by me. I might add, though, that they invariably imply a total defeat of the laws of time, space, matter, and energy—or rather, an individual independence of these laws on my part, whereby I can sail through the varied universes of space-time as an invisible vapour might ... upsetting none of them, yet superior to their limitations and local forms of material organisation. ... Now this all sounds damn foolish to anybody else—and very justly so. There is no reason why it should sound anything except damn foolish to anyone who had not happened to receive precisely the same series of inclinations, impressions, and background-images which the purely fortuitous circumstances of my own especial life have chanced to give me."
~ H.P. Lovecraft

I suppose you could say Lovecraft's reason for living was based on things that excited him or interested him. Then again, he also said such things as;
"It is good to be a cynic—it is better to be a contented cat — and it is best not to exist at all. Universal suicide is the most logical thing in the world—we reject it only because of our primitive cowardice and childish fear of the dark. If we were sensible we would seek death—the same blissful blank which we enjoyed before we existed. "

Which is completly logical, and reasonable, if only hard to accept.

[Knowbody]

Originally Posted by The Silent 1

I can somewhat understand what you mean when you say ignorance is bliss. Its probably nice for many people to have that knowledge that your life has a specific goal or was created for some purpose. But what your describing is the basis for where a lot of existensilism thought comes from.

But again I would ask you, what if you are going to live forever? According to most religions all you have to do is bow to god to go to this afterlife. It doesn't matter then if you get married or see that new movie or whatever. So the question is then, would you really live your life much differently if there was an afterlife? I assume your a generally moral person and don't need god to tell you to treat people well. If this was your only life would that not make it a bit more precious? How does an eternal afterlife suddenly give your life a point? What would be the point of living forever? Whats the point of anything?

It wouldn't give my life a point but it would atleast force me to make an effort to be social since I know I'll be dealing with these same people for eternity. Now I really don't care to socialize because in the end it really doesn't matter, wow you'll remember me after I'm gone? That's nice, but then you'll die and the memory dies with you so I might as well have never known you.

btw, please recommend some good books on existentialism. I'm currently reading the Dali Lama's 'Art of Happiness" and a few of Osho's books

[fredbloggs02]

Originally Posted by The Silent 1

I understand what your saying, but heres something to consider. You say existence is meaningless, but what exactly would it mean for existence to have an ultimate meaning or point? Does that even make sense? Meaning is a subjective term, nothing means the same to everyone, so it really makes no sense for life to have an ultimate meaning. Even if a deity created us for a specific purpose, theres nothing to say we would have to accept that purpose.

It may sometimes seem depressing to realize life has no meaning other than what you give it, but thats also liberating to know your free to give your life whatever meaning you chose. As for all the "whys" that you ask, I'm not sure that question quite makes sense either. You are you because the dna from your parents combined to create a new human being. But it really sounds like your asking for some greater reason, but the question you ask may honestly be nonsensical. Its like asking why mountains exist. I could give you an explanation based on how the Earth formed, but that might not satisfy you if your looking for some deeper meaning that doesn't exist.

The only way you could ask "why" is if you accept that theres some deity that created mountains for some purpose, but even then is the intended purpose of the creator the final word? If we find some other purpose for mountains outside of what the creator intended does that change the ultimate meaning of the mountains?

As meaning is subjective, it can't be talked about in objective terms, not in the large sense imo.

You might say "there is no objective truth" and you could argue that through mathematical non-contradictory propositions unto eternity but not "objective meaning". That there is no objective meaning in "the large sense" is a soothing explanation, Wittgensteinian and doesn't stop people asking the question. Perhaps people would "have to" accept the response, perhaps that is all that satisfies them.. When people ask questions others deem absurd in their search for "objective meaning", perhaps they deserve absurd answers. Perhaps people who refute God with contradictory propoositions also exert an amount of influence on people who only search for that. To say "there is no objective truth" refutes itself dialectically. And maybe the greatest inconsistency in millions of people who all believe their ideas are the same is what satisfies this burning inconsistency, happens to be the greatest truth, all that reduces the search for "truth" to nothing, that which they truly desire. Perhaps what motivates truth is this burning desire and refutes itself in the dialectical contradiction amongst people who all believe they know the same, who when told to express this don't. Where then does logic go? Does it even move? What do consummated lives care for a contradiction?