I find free will arguments absurd and insulting - Social Anxiety Forum
 
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 06:17 AM Thread Starter
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I find free will arguments absurd and insulting

I personally find most religious people delusional. I believe we have enough evidence to dismiss most of the worlds largest religion claims, I would not dismiss the existence of some God, like I do not dismiss the existence of unicorns or flying spaghetti monster, but you have to ask yourself, if you were a loving god, would you really create the world, which we have today? Religious people say that evil comes from humans executing their free will, but humans didn't create death, pain, hunger, lust etc. I didn't chose to live in such world where you need to consume other life forms to survive, I didn't chose to live in such world, where others can hurt me and I can hurt them, it has nothing to do with free will, it's just rules of this world. I want to grow wings and fly away, but I can't. I want to live in solitude away from all problems, stress etc. but I can't. I don't feel like I have much of the free will, when I need to constantly struggle for my survival, not much at all, if any.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 01:44 AM
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I agree, the free will arguments are absurd. Though if you really think about it, Christianity allows only for the illusion of free will. If God is omniscient, which Christians argue he is, then he must by definition know all of the outcomes of our "free" choices beforehand because he must know everything about each of us -- our circumstances, personalities and tendencies. As you collect data concerning a specific event or choice, you can determine with increasing accuracy which outcome is more likely. God must know in advance what every individual will decide in any given situation because he has all the data.

This "omniscience paradox" is just one of many strong arguments against the existence of God. But theists love to devise ways around it. I think "delusional" fits many of them quite well.

Don't pray for me; I found myself when I lost my faith! -Tyler Glenn, "Devil"
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 03:09 PM
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Belief in God is largely based on the concept that a society that follows God's word prospers as a result. But if a country moves further and further from God and it falls apart, how can anyone say that disproves God?

Take cheating for instance. Few marriages survive cheating, mostly it leads to broken families, and the kids likely having trust issues as a result. God tells us not to cheat because it's bad. God is the messenger. He can't prevent us from cheating but the negative outcome of it shows His message is right.

I couldn't possibly care less about telling someone there going to hell for this or that. The hell that they might make on Earth, for their own lives or others, is far more immediate. In this case I'm talking about the hell of broken families, ruined friendships, health concerns, low self-esteem, self-hate, etc.

"Wisdom is a tree of life to those who embrace her; happy are those who hold her tightly." - Proverbs 3:18
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 03:24 PM
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It's a strange manipulation tactic when they suggest you have free agency but proceed to riddle you with guilt over a decision you make.

Religion is just politics. You did not always have democrats and republicans at one point in the past. But there was the church, which was instrumental for conducting civic matters in addition to spreading a philosophy. It was your demographic voting block. And just like the politics of today, they utilize any tactic to convince you just about anything. Jesus had reservations against all of this. So I tend to look at the mainstream point of view of God as this enduring straw man and take whatever religious people say with a scoop of salt.

-As always-
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 07:21 PM
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I personally find most religious people delusional. I believe we have enough evidence to dismiss most of the worlds largest religion claims, I would not dismiss the existence of some God, like I do not dismiss the existence of unicorns or flying spaghetti monster, but you have to ask yourself, if you were a loving god, would you really create the world, which we have today? Religious people say that evil comes from humans executing their free will, but humans didn't create death, pain, hunger, lust etc. I didn't chose to live in such world where you need to consume other life forms to survive, I didn't chose to live in such world, where others can hurt me and I can hurt them, it has nothing to do with free will, it's just rules of this world. I want to grow wings and fly away, but I can't. I want to live in solitude away from all problems, stress etc. but I can't. I don't feel like I have much of the free will, when I need to constantly struggle for my survival, not much at all, if any.

You are right there its cognitive dissonance
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 07:31 PM
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Belief in God is largely based on the concept that a society that follows God's word prospers as a result. But if a country moves further and further from God and it falls apart, how can anyone say that disproves God?

Take cheating for instance. Few marriages survive cheating, mostly it leads to broken families, and the kids likely having trust issues as a result. God tells us not to cheat because it's bad. God is the messenger. He can't prevent us from cheating but the negative outcome of it shows His message is right.

I couldn't possibly care less about telling someone there going to hell for this or that. The hell that they might make on Earth, for their own lives or others, is far more immediate. In this case I'm talking about the hell of broken families, ruined friendships, health concerns, low self-esteem, self-hate, etc.
If you want to talk about societies that follow "God's word" then how about we discuss the many theocracies in the middle east, where Sharia is literally the Law? How prosperous are they? You're probably Christian so you'll say that they're just following the wrong God but I'd argue that Christianity does no better; right here in the USA we've got radical Christians fighting tooth-and-nail against marriage equality, and for what? So we can deny basic human rights to normal people who happen to be sexually attracted to the same gender? Because your imaginary friend says they're bad? Please.

Christians are always so eager to tell everyone else how they should live their lives because they truly believe that they know best, supposedly because they got their knowledge from "God." But the fact is that nobody talks to God -- anyone who says they do is mentally ill or delusional. Sure, cheating is bad, just like murdering is bad -- everyone knows that. It's common sense, not divine wisdom. But there are a ton of bad ideas that come from belief in God, like the belief that all homosexual people are deviants and sinners, or that polyamorous relationships are sinful and wicked.

Are you really so arrogant as to claim that you can know which actions cause "hell on Earth"?

Don't pray for me; I found myself when I lost my faith! -Tyler Glenn, "Devil"
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 08:02 PM
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I personally find most religious people delusional. I believe we have enough evidence to dismiss most of the worlds largest religion claims, I would not dismiss the existence of some God, like I do not dismiss the existence of unicorns or flying spaghetti monster, but you have to ask yourself, if you were a loving god, would you really create the world, which we have today? Religious people say that evil comes from humans executing their free will, but humans didn't create death, pain, hunger, lust etc. I didn't chose to live in such world where you need to consume other life forms to survive, I didn't chose to live in such world, where others can hurt me and I can hurt them, it has nothing to do with free will, it's just rules of this world. I want to grow wings and fly away, but I can't. I want to live in solitude away from all problems, stress etc. but I can't. I don't feel like I have much of the free will, when I need to constantly struggle for my survival, not much at all, if any.
Your post, Mr. Shadow, somehow reminds me of this documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/v/uJWPFYygGPc
It pertains to human suffering. It is a soothing and interesting movie. That is all and I am not a salesman. (door-to-door evangelists...)

Honestly, I believe that we have free will, even though there is a little interference by the chemicals in our brains and bodies (For example, I believe that I may have PDD. I may not be able to control the feelings, but I should be able to control the reactions, yeah? TMI. LOL! - Oh acronyms, how would we live without thee. )

ANYWAY...

Other folks have free will AND they may not feel the same as you. You may not agree with most of them. For example, "it's a dog-eat-dog world." We have heard that a lot, right? The world is a mishmash of ideas. Which idea is the most common?

Now, do you agree with it? Which one is correct?

"I'm nobody, who are you?" - Emily Dickinson
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 08:14 PM
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Look, if you do good things you better thank God and Jesus cause they're the ones who made you do it. They deserve all the praise. But if you do bad things, it's 100% your fault, they had nothing to do with it, one of the few moments when a human had true free will, God works in mysterious ways, etc. That's all you need to know.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 10:54 PM
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If you want to talk about societies that follow "God's word" then how about we discuss the many theocracies in the middle east, where Sharia is literally the Law? How prosperous are they? You're probably Christian so you'll say that they're just following the wrong God but I'd argue that Christianity does no better; right here in the USA we've got radical Christians fighting tooth-and-nail against marriage equality, and for what? So we can deny basic human rights to normal people who happen to be sexually attracted to the same gender? Because your imaginary friend says they're bad? Please.

Christians are always so eager to tell everyone else how they should live their lives because they truly believe that they know best, supposedly because they got their knowledge from "God." But the fact is that nobody talks to God -- anyone who says they do is mentally ill or delusional. Sure, cheating is bad, just like murdering is bad -- everyone knows that. It's common sense, not divine wisdom. But there are a ton of bad ideas that come from belief in God, like the belief that all homosexual people are deviants and sinners, or that polyamorous relationships are sinful and wicked.

Are you really so arrogant as to claim that you can know which actions cause "hell on Earth"?
By hell on Earth I'm talking about how things like alcohol, cheating, gambling, etc. have brought immense pain to many people's lives.

Many Bibles use the word abomination to describe homosexual intercourse when the Hebrew has no exact English translation. A closer wording would be "going astray". Essentially saying that the Bible wanted men and women to be having babies. Back then there were shorter life spans, in some cases more wars, etc. so keeping the birthrate up was considered vital. This is why Biblical literalism can be a mistake. It misses out on the context of the times.

"Wisdom is a tree of life to those who embrace her; happy are those who hold her tightly." - Proverbs 3:18
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-11-2017, 11:32 PM
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Look, if you do good things you better thank God and Jesus cause they're the ones who made you do it. They deserve all the praise. But if you do bad things, it's 100% your fault, they had nothing to do with it, one of the few moments when a human had true free will, God works in mysterious ways, etc. That's all you need to know.
In my experience at least, Christians LOVE to blame all the bad stuff on Satan. Just repent and it all goes away! The Christians I grew up with loved to avoid responsibility altogether, unless it was showing off how righteous they could be -- that was all them.

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By hell on Earth I'm talking about how things like alcohol, cheating, gambling, etc. have brought immense pain to many people's lives.
You're still missing the potential benefits of so-called "sins," or the times when they can be justified. Moderate alcohol consumption has health benefits like reducing your risk of heart disease and possibly reducing the risk of diabetes. And flame me all you like but I think there are situations where "cheating" is perfectly reasonable, like a homosexual person who is stuck in a marriage with someone of the opposite sex, usually forced on them by their church leaders or religious families. Or a person with a strong sex drive who marries an asexual person without knowing it, but isn't "allowed" a divorce. I'm guessing you'd say that open relationships are also "cheating" but in such cases there's absolutely no harm done because each individual is a consenting adult. Even killing can be justified in certain situations, like warfare or self-defense.

So yes, these things can cause immense pain to peoples' lives. But they can also be beneficial or necessary. The world is NEVER strictly black-and-white.

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Many Bibles use the word abomination to describe homosexual intercourse when the Hebrew has no exact English translation. A closer wording would be "going astray". Essentially saying that the Bible wanted men and women to be having babies. Back then there were shorter life spans, in some cases more wars, etc. so keeping the birthrate up was considered vital. This is why Biblical literalism can be a mistake. It misses out on the context of the times.
So you're a proponent of LGBTQ+ rights then, including marriage equality? Props to you; most Christians aren't nearly so open-minded. And I'd suggest that the entire Bible is taken out of context regularly, though it's frankly a terrible source of moral or ethical guidelines no matter how you slice it.

Don't pray for me; I found myself when I lost my faith! -Tyler Glenn, "Devil"
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 01:11 AM
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We have even less free will than OP thinks - the way we approach anything and everything is determined by the past. Not just our own past, but our parents', their parents, etc. along with everyone we interact with. And not just people but socioeconomic circumstances, current trends, and so much more. It all comes together to form what we each are now, a product of circumstance. The only reason why you're even able to question free will is because ''you'' weren't raised to be religious.

Seems to me free will as a concept exists because a. the alternative is nihilism and fatalism as soon as you realize you're destined to run off a script no matter how hard you try to break free from it, and b. the need to attribute personal responsibility in order to have a fuctional early society, before the natural sciences were even a thing. Sure, you don't need science to tell you why the kid you viciously beat every day turned out violent and antisocial, but if you stop attributing blame you take away disincentive to be a ruthless ******* in a time when simple survival was far from guaranteed.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 09:33 AM
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You're still missing the potential benefits of so-called "sins," or the times when they can be justified. Moderate alcohol consumption has health benefits like reducing your risk of heart disease and possibly reducing the risk of diabetes. And flame me all you like but I think there are situations where "cheating" is perfectly reasonable, like a homosexual person who is stuck in a marriage with someone of the opposite sex, usually forced on them by their church leaders or religious families. Or a person with a strong sex drive who marries an asexual person without knowing it, but isn't "allowed" a divorce. I'm guessing you'd say that open relationships are also "cheating" but in such cases there's absolutely no harm done because each individual is a consenting adult. Even killing can be justified in certain situations, like warfare or self-defense.

So yes, these things can cause immense pain to peoples' lives. But they can also be beneficial or necessary. The world is NEVER strictly black-and-white.
The Bible isn't against wine but it is against drunkenness. Which indicates that it's the loss of your better judgment that it warns against. People can make lasting mistakes they might not have if they were sober. Cheating is implied to be a betrayal of trust. If the other person knows it could be argued as ambiguous. Either way it's messy. The other person might say they're okay with it and later not be. The commandment about killing is actually meant to read murder because killing can be justifiable given certain circumstances.

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So you're a proponent of LGBTQ+ rights then, including marriage equality? Props to you; most Christians aren't nearly so open-minded. And I'd suggest that the entire Bible is taken out of context regularly, though it's frankly a terrible source of moral or ethical guidelines no matter how you slice it.
One of the girls I was close to later got a girlfriend. I wish them both happiness. Transgender people should have the option to get the surgery. Kids doing it though... I'm not sure they're old enough to make that choice. Especially if they're too young to save their eggs or sperm because one day they might want to have kids with their own genes. I went to church as a Christian but have learned about other religions since. Now you could say I'm a hybrid of sorts that thinks of Christ as a avatar of Brahman (Hinduism).

"Wisdom is a tree of life to those who embrace her; happy are those who hold her tightly." - Proverbs 3:18
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 04:16 PM
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Belief in God is largely based on the concept that a society that follows God's word prospers as a result. But if a country moves further and further from God and it falls apart, how can anyone say that disproves God?

Take cheating for instance. Few marriages survive cheating, mostly it leads to broken families, and the kids likely having trust issues as a result. God tells us not to cheat because it's bad. God is the messenger. He can't prevent us from cheating but the negative outcome of it shows His message is right.

I couldn't possibly care less about telling someone there going to hell for this or that. The hell that they might make on Earth, for their own lives or others, is far more immediate. In this case I'm talking about the hell of broken families, ruined friendships, health concerns, low self-esteem, self-hate, etc.
Where do you even start.... That's practically not worth touching (as is being proven by the thread I am not fully reading) because it's got so many holes I doubt a person that says those things and still believes it requires god to make it happen would accept anything else. No matter the examples. I do not need god to tell me not to cheat and plenty of people who follow god cheat. It does nothing to stop anything. Just like signing a marriage paper does not do anything to keep people together. Morality is a personal choice partially shaped by your society. Any society. Society can have morals, believe cheating is wrong and not do it, just as much without belief in orders from a higher power as with one and what reason do people have to listen to this higher power if they do not believe in reward or punishment? At that point why do they need one if they would choose to do those things anyway? We also get the chance to do horrible things and many people just trying to live their lives have been killed in the name of god or other religions. Most of the people I know who rely on religion to be good people are actually the most morally corrupt and selfish because they are only doing it to get praise from others and reward from god. They usually have to make sure everyone knows what they did or didn't do to prove they are good and everyone should like them. It's the people who don't need a god to understand right and wrong that are the ones who can actually be trusted to build a good society. The ones that have no reason but their own logic and hearts to choose to not harm someone else are also the ones who will not follow orders to the contrary and be more resistant to being bullied into going against it as well. Blind faith in any god or human being keeps a few immoral people under control but also sends many people, even those who would choose better without a religion or group to follow, to harm others in defense of their religious values because everyone else says that is the word and will of a higher power.

Would you not cheat because your religion told you not to or would you not cheat because you believe it is wrong for yourself? Do you need a god to tell you that? If god was disproven today would you start cheating and break all the morals you believe in? Since you do not care about heaven or hell why do you need a god to give you that rule? I would hope what behavior you think you should follow is your own beliefs that would continue by your choice irregardless of who is saying what to you. Unfortunately some people lack the common sense and independent thought to function without someone telling them what to think and do with belief in good or bad consequences pushed on them so they will do whatever most everyone else is doing or just follow what is convenient irregardless of what that is. Those are the people I worry about. Whether they are religious or not because at any moment something could shape them into doing very destructive behavior.

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 04:29 PM
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"Freewill"

There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance

A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive

[Chorus:]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotusland

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate

[Chorus]

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet

[Chorus]

And I always thought this would be the land of milk and honey
Oh but I came to find out that it's all hate and money
And there's a canopy of greed holding me down.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 04:49 AM Thread Starter
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The Bible isn't against wine but it is against drunkenness. Which indicates that it's the loss of your better judgment that it warns against. People can make lasting mistakes they might not have if they were sober. Cheating is implied to be a betrayal of trust. If the other person knows it could be argued as ambiguous. Either way it's messy. The other person might say they're okay with it and later not be. The commandment about killing is actually meant to read murder because killing can be justifiable given certain circumstances.
Why not just make it impossible to sin? No drunkness if you're unable to get drunk, no murder if you're unable to die, no cheating if it is impossible to betray, those all are just the rules of this world, if you're almighty god and you don't want people to sin, just make it impossible to sin, it has nothing to do with the free will, because there is no such thing as absolute free will and if we have only a limited free will, why not just limit it so that everyone could be happy? Who would complain? It is SO EASY to make this world a better place to live in if you're an almighty god. Something as simple as f.e. making children unable to get cancer. Would anyone object to that? Would that impeach on anyones free will? Do those children chose to get cancer and die before reaching the adulthood? Did humanity as a whole intentionally chose for children to be able to get cancer? I don't see how anyone could believe in a LOVING almighty god, who lets such things happen. If there is a physical thinking god I very much doubt if he is loving or cares at all about the well being of humanity.
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 10:10 AM
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I think it would be more respectful to not keep anyone guessing and just say that I'm not going to respond to any replies to my posts. There are things I could add but nothing I think would change anyone's minds. People have a right to believe what they want to believe. For a long time I stopped believing as well. Now I believe again and I'm happier for it. Part of the reason I wanted to share that belief here is that I have been, and still am in many ways, similar to the people here. Still, I realize that many people don't see the point of God or of studying scripture. For those that someday might it's probably not going to be because of what someone in a debate thread said. More likely it would be because of their own choice to seek God.

"Wisdom is a tree of life to those who embrace her; happy are those who hold her tightly." - Proverbs 3:18
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 11:05 AM
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I donīt like the "free will" arguments either. I suspect they mostly come from people who are priviledged or have quite a good life. Who never experienced suffering or the rock bottom. If they spent years locked in basement being raped and tortured every day, maybe they would change their opinion.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-18-2017, 08:52 AM
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I donīt like the "free will" arguments either. I suspect they mostly come from people who are priviledged or have quite a good life. Who never experienced suffering or the rock bottom. If they spent years locked in basement being raped and tortured every day, maybe they would change their opinion.
Whenever someone uses the free will argument, my first thought goes to the people who live such horrible lives that they clearly would have never chosen to be born.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 04:08 AM
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Religion has been around in some form since the very early days of human existence. For the most part it seems to be a way of trying to find a sense of purpose for the existence of life itself and reasoning for the ill's of the world. For instance it's far easier to believe you'll be reunited with a deceased loved one in the afterlife than it is to accept that you will never see them again.

I think that religion has always been used to try and control the general population, to try and get them to abide by the law, if you are good (abide by the rules) you go to heaven, if you break the rules you go to hell. So even if they do have free will the laws of religion are set to coerce it towards an accepted ideal.

Personally I don't believe in organised religion, the concept is too flawed and based on a human centered universe. I do however think that there must be some explanation for the existence of the universe, I don't believe the concept that it exist just because it can etc. Sadly the truth is likely beyond our comprehension and we will never know if our choices are our own or if there is an element of pre determined fate at work.
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