Consider a tree - Social Anxiety Forum
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post #1 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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Consider a tree

Dear atheists

Consider a tree (or shrub or any other plant). It does not have a brain or consciousness but nonetheless performs complex actions such as producing fruit, converting carbon dioxide to oxygen, putting down roots, extracting water etc from the ground. Indeed, how does it produce fruit? A piece of fruit itself is quite complex, and is part of a fairly complex system to enable reproduction. It is a self-contained system.

This can not be explained by genetic inheritance either. There is no brain so the information can not be passed on genetically (not that it is possible anyway).

How do you explain this?

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post #2 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 09:32 PM
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Mitosis? There may be no functional brain but the billions of cells in the tree have DNA in their nucleus and are replicating and dividing themselves all the time hence their growth and coding which specifies that the tree should produce fruit, take in carbon dioxide, etc.

(not that i'm an atheist lol just making an observation)

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post #3 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 09:45 PM
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Is this a homework question or something?


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post #4 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 10:55 PM
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This can not be explained by genetic inheritance either. There is no brain so the information can not be passed on genetically (not that it is possible anyway).
You're quite right there. It's not possible. But that's probably because genetic informarmation is not passed on via the brain
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post #5 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-29-2017, 10:59 PM
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lol it is genetic

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post #6 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 02:51 AM Thread Starter
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Is this a homework question or something?
No.

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post #7 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 04:17 AM
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Okay first of all we need to take into account the points that you didnt include. You are assuming that a tree is intelligently designed yet you are not taking into account certain factors such as time, genetic mutation, or a proper definition of complexity. Natural selection says that, given the right amount of time and circumstances, any matter(organic or non-organic) will eventually and indefinately evolve into a more complex state. As for complexity: a tree is a complex organism, but evolution can create any organism regardless of complexity, given the right circumstances and physical perimeters. As long as the circumstances are right, and as long as there is enough time and matter, then the complexity of any organism is irrelevent to the laws of physics. And the existence(curently theoretical) of a multiverse negates intelligent design. And you have some false facts which i will disprove; consciousness is not required to allow any form of biological function, look at viruses for instance. Also, a brain is not needed to pass down information through heredity. Ever heard of something called DNA?


So in summary, not only does evolution theory say that it is possible for a tree to form without the existence of a God, but what we percieve as complexity in organisms may not be anything more than the by-product of natural selection and parallel universes.
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post #8 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 06:13 AM
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Better question. If you take a bunch of dynamite, strap it to the tree, detonate it, what are the chances it'll all fall into place as a picnic table?

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post #9 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 06:21 AM
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We cant? Some things have no explanation. It doesnt mean God created it

Improving...
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post #10 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 07:14 AM
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You may understand if you don't look at it from an anthropomorphic perspective. I read a brilliant book about this by Stefano Muso called Brilliant Green. You can find some of his talks on youtube too. Plants are superior to humans in so many ways. Really enjoyed getting my behind kicked by Muso :-)

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post #11 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 12:26 PM
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>Consider a tree
Ok
>how does it produce fruit
Fruiting is a stage of the reproductive cycle of most plants. A mature plant, experiencing the right environmental conditions will flower and subsequently produce fruit. I don't see how this is relevant to atheism.

You're basically referencing a biological process that is well explained and saying it can't be explained.

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post #12 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoddesdon View Post
Dear atheists

Consider a tree (or shrub or any other plant). It does not have a brain or consciousness but nonetheless performs complex actions such as producing fruit, converting carbon dioxide to oxygen, putting down roots, extracting water etc from the ground. Indeed, how does it produce fruit? A piece of fruit itself is quite complex, and is part of a fairly complex system to enable reproduction. It is a self-contained system.

This can not be explained by genetic inheritance either. There is no brain so the information can not be passed on genetically (not that it is possible anyway).

How do you explain this?
What?

Here is a basic explanation. http://wonderopolis.org/wonder/how-d...and-vegetables It's straightforward biology though, really.

Genetic information passed on via the brain, though, hmm.
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post #13 of 49 (permalink) Old 04-30-2017, 11:54 PM
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I really feel bad for people who make threads like this, thinking they're so smart and have it all figured out. Except that they're usually under-educated or naive when it comes to the sciences and something in their posts always proves it. My face hit my palm so hard. I just... I can't even...

But suddenly I can understand precisely why people like you NEED your happy little fairy tale. Because religion makes sense to you in a way that the complexities of reality don't. You seem content to sit back and insist that God is the reason for everything because you don't have the drive to figure out how and why the world actually works. It's just... really sad IMO.

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post #14 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 12:38 AM
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Consider a ball (or stone or any other solid, roundish object). It does not have a brain or consciousness but nonetheless performs complex actions such as falling to the ground when dropped, boucing away from things it hits, rolling down hills, causing pain when it strikes someone hard enough. Indeed, how does it produce feelings? A feeling of pain itself is quite complex, and is part of a fairly complex system to enable us to avoid danger. It is a self-contained system.

This can not be explained by psychology either. There is no brain or mouth so the pain can not be passed on verbally (not that it is possible anyway).

How do you explain this?

.
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post #15 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red October View Post
Consider a ball (or stone or any other solid, roundish object). It does not have a brain or consciousness but nonetheless performs complex actions such as falling to the ground when dropped, boucing away from things it hits, rolling down hills, causing pain when it strikes someone hard enough. Indeed, how does it produce feelings? A feeling of pain itself is quite complex, and is part of a fairly complex system to enable us to avoid danger. It is a self-contained system.

This can not be explained by psychology either. There is no brain or mouth so the pain can not be passed on verbally (not that it is possible anyway).

How do you explain this?


To OP:

The answers are in biology. Maybe a better answer would come from asking this question to a botanist, instead of forcing the (usually) uneducated (and therefore arguably ignorant) to answer. Also, a good tactic to brainwash someone is to force the uneducated to answer a question, and then showing them only one solution. The answer to some of your questions... chemotaxis, gravitaxis, hydrotaxis...better yet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxis.

Many of the genes of respiration(or any given biological process) have been discovered. Studies have shown that if you remove a gene (or a piece of DNA) then the function gets reduced severely. Surely if genetic material (in this case DNA) wasn't part of intelligent design then we cannot manipulate the behavior of organisms (including humans) so easily?


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post #16 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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You're quite right there. It's not possible. But that's probably because genetic informarmation is not passed on via the brain
Trees have no cognition, so how is a complex process implemented? Where do the instructions come from?

Genetic information is not passed on via the brain, as I said in the thread, so instinct can also not be explained. The excuse I got from atheists is that genetic memory is involved.

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post #17 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 03:11 AM Thread Starter
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>Consider a tree
Ok
>how does it produce fruit
Fruiting is a stage of the reproductive cycle of most plants. A mature plant, experiencing the right environmental conditions will flower and subsequently produce fruit. I don't see how this is relevant to atheism.

You're basically referencing a biological process that is well explained and saying it can't be explained.
I am saying is that how it is directed can not be explained. Where do the instructions come from?

It is relevant to atheism because science, on which atheists rely for explanations, can not explain it.

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post #18 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 03:12 AM
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I'm going to quote tetragammon:

Quote:
You seem content to sit back and insist that God is the reason for everything because you don't have the drive to figure out how and why the world actually works.

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post #19 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 03:21 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Red October View Post
Consider a ball (or stone or any other solid, roundish object). It does not have a brain or consciousness but nonetheless performs complex actions such as falling to the ground when dropped, boucing away from things it hits, rolling down hills, causing pain when it strikes someone hard enough. Indeed, how does it produce feelings? A feeling of pain itself is quite complex, and is part of a fairly complex system to enable us to avoid danger. It is a self-contained system.

This can not be explained by psychology either. There is no brain or mouth so the pain can not be passed on verbally (not that it is possible anyway).

How do you explain this?
Very funny.

By being dropped the ball is the subject of a conscious decision or act by a brain, which trees do not have. There is an identifiable cause.

By the way, stones do not bounce.

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post #20 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 03:26 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tetragammon View Post
I really feel bad for people who make threads like this, thinking they're so smart and have it all figured out. Except that they're usually under-educated or naive when it comes to the sciences and something in their posts always proves it. My face hit my palm so hard. I just... I can't even...

But suddenly I can understand precisely why people like you NEED your happy little fairy tale. Because religion makes sense to you in a way that the complexities of reality don't. You seem content to sit back and insist that God is the reason for everything because you don't have the drive to figure out how and why the world actually works. It's just... really sad IMO.
I am not claiming I am smart since I asked for explanations.

By the way, you have not provided an explanation, just made derogatory comments.

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