David De Angelo - Page 2 - Social Anxiety Forum
X

Download the SAS Android App

Or switch to mobile version of the forums

X

Download the SAS iPhone App

Or switch to mobile version of the forums

Help/FAQLog InJoin SAS
Go Back   Social Anxiety Forum > Recovery > Self Help Resources

Reply
Old 07-25-2009, 01:33 PM   #21 (permalink)
 
Status: Permanently Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 31
Posts: 133



Default Not so great...

I've read this guys stuff, and it's really all about seduction and manipulation of manipulative people. He talks about how to score really hot women who are just playing the dating game, and then says these games also are helpful in marriage. It is pop psychology, which does work for the pop culture, but for real, honest, and living and genuine people, it is complete trash.

The basic good point to draw out of his whole thing is that women do like confidence in men, and no one can disagree with that. They really enjoy teasing and being teased too, and that can be part of a healthy relationship as well.

However, as with any system, his stuff only works on the phony and shallow pop culture crowd that thinks that going to bars and clubs is all there is to life. Other people know there are better ways to life, and there are hot women out there who are very hot, funny, honest, and genuine. The guy is a salesman and a businessman and expect him to come up with more things that require you to buy his stuff. Don't fall for it.
danstelter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010, 06:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
 
CopadoMexicano's Avatar
 
Status: True Fighter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United States Of America
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,647



Default

bump. I think david de angleos material taught me how to be a nice person not necessarily a nice guy. though he doesnt touch enough on nice guy syndrome he says it doesnt matter how shy you are you can break out of your comfort zone.
__________________
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence and than success is sure," Mark Twain

-------------------------------------------------------
CopadoMexicano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2010, 10:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: 29 m, Orillia Ont.
Age: 36
Posts: 146



Default

Seven years ago I was 25 living at home with mom, scared to move out even if it was in the same town, lonely as hell, no friends, and a virgin.

Following what david teaches helped me get a girlfriend of six years, soon to be wife, moved across country with a new vehicle and nothing else, no place to live, no friends or family out here, no job, leaving behind more friends than I'd had in my life. I am able to talk with strangers with no problem now, and will go out on my day off to walk through a mall packed with people because I like to be around it.

It wasn't an overnight transformation, it took years of work to build my confidence and retrain my thinking patterns. Anyone who thinks it's about being manipulative, or phony, doesn't get what he is teaching. It's about the opposite. A lot of it is learning to stand up for yourself, expecting to be treated with respect, not letting yourself feel or be treated as inferior to someone else.

Don't get me wrong, he's not my guru or anything lol, I never bought anything from him, just his freebie stuff is what I used. I hadn't even thought of his name in years until I read this thread. But his stuff helped me out immensely with my SA
__________________
I eat babies
biggoofybastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2010, 03:28 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
VanDamMan's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,967



Default

I've only read the game.

But what seems most important is having a mentor in the beginning or at least a wingman for support.
__________________
Beneficiary of 52 infractions and 5 warnings.
VanDamMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2010, 08:59 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
mbp86's Avatar
 
Status: Don't unban me
Join Date: May 2010
Gender: Male
Age: 27
Posts: 1,444



Default

I think deep down we all know what certain types of women want. Theres really no need to buy a book. You just got to leave the house and continually make attempts. I think you should be yourself. You may not get as many numbers, but you will end up being in a happier and much longer lasting relationship.
mbp86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2010, 01:46 PM   #26 (permalink)
 
Status: creeper status
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Gender: Male
Age: 28
Posts: 6,783



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggoofy******* View Post
Seven years ago I was 25 living at home with mom, scared to move out even if it was in the same town, lonely as hell, no friends, and a virgin.

Following what david teaches helped me get a girlfriend of six years, soon to be wife, moved across country with a new vehicle and nothing else, no place to live, no friends or family out here, no job, leaving behind more friends than I'd had in my life. I am able to talk with strangers with no problem now, and will go out on my day off to walk through a mall packed with people because I like to be around it.

It wasn't an overnight transformation, it took years of work to build my confidence and retrain my thinking patterns. Anyone who thinks it's about being manipulative, or phony, doesn't get what he is teaching. It's about the opposite. A lot of it is learning to stand up for yourself, expecting to be treated with respect, not letting yourself feel or be treated as inferior to someone else.

Don't get me wrong, he's not my guru or anything lol, I never bought anything from him, just his freebie stuff is what I used. I hadn't even thought of his name in years until I read this thread. But his stuff helped me out immensely with my SA
Ironically, this is where I started too. His stuff is great for motivation but there really isn't any need to be a jerk to women, and not saying that he teaches that but the mentality is "cocky and funny", which can be coined another word: flirting.

A lot of this pickup stuff reflects on a superficial reality, which ironically, may be true, but it also focuses a lot of insecure people, and not just men but women as well.. It is important to understand the difference between a healthy relationship and some screwball chick you try to "pick up" sometime.

The stuff just delves deep into reflection and makes you question things about yourself and others, which is good in itself, but the boundary needs to be drawn so you stay true to yourself and not some "Mystery" wannabe walking around throwing magic tricks at girls. You can be kind, honest and polite. The best "game" or line isn't a cocky and funny bit, but instead an overall attitude (confidence) you have, which doesn't really come from being someone you aren't. David teaches guys that rejection is part of the whole ordeal, but then again so is dating in general without his information. It is a good confidence booster, motivator and philosophical gathering of information, but that is it really.

I haven't listened to his stuff probably since I was 20. Ironically, it has helped me become a better person oddly enough, and only because it made me question and try, and not because I use a cocky and funny routine or do "negs" on women. I wonder what new stuff he has released? Although, nowadays I don't think I could listen to too much of it without saying "This guy...". If you had listened to enough of his stuff you would of noticed his material didn't cover relationships, and that is probably because it could only cover one other thing (hint). I used to think that maybe I could be a 40 year old dating a 22 year old, but nowadays I realize how incredibly mismatched that'd be. Eh...
bwidger85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2010, 10:23 PM   #27 (permalink)
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2



Default

Wow, there are a lot of really interesting thoughts and beliefs out there regarding this PUA stuff.

Let me throw my hat into this ring.

PUA stuff does work, is it a tool for overcoming serious anxiety... probably not.

The stuff out there can be good, David DeAngelo's stuff is actually the worst but he is the best marketer out there, if you check his listing at alexa.com he beats any of the other guys hands down at present.

What this comes down to is will a quick fix, i.e. learning stock material and things to say help you over the long term, or is it just going to mask the problem? In may end up doing both, as you gradually become more confident over time...

This will vary depending on what your current challenges are. What I can say is that I used that stuff very successfully to get over any anxiety I have in a night time social setting consistently.

It didn't happen over night but by going out and pushing myself (I refused to take meds) I got comfortable and now have a lot of close friends and people in my life.

I still have huge anxiety just going shopping or jogging and I'm now applying the same formula of gradual exposure to get over these things.

So what I will tell you is that:

1) Not all this stuff is a scam but David D def is
2) It's not a guaranteed fix but it can definitely help

Additional: My boss is 36 and he dates a 21 year old, I have a friend who is 46 and dates a 26 year old, if you want to date a younger girl that can happen but it's easier to say "I'm over the hill, I can't get those kinds of women."

What you decide is true will be true, but if you are willing to let go of that belief then I urge you guys, next time you do make it out to a public setting look around, I saw 4 older guys with younger women today. And no, the guys didn't look rich or handsome.
JackD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2010, 08:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
CopadoMexicano's Avatar
 
Status: True Fighter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United States Of America
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,647



Default

The thing David D says is that anxiety is the opposite of confidence so inorder to get any confidence is to do courage and each time you do it your rewarded confidence. but to the disclaimer is to note that the material isnt intended to substitute medical advice most of the pua programs are for fun.
__________________
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence and than success is sure," Mark Twain

-------------------------------------------------------
CopadoMexicano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2010, 02:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
Status: 4th Round KO
Join Date: Dec 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 86



Default

David d's stuff is GREAT for inner game n all that, but i'm personally starting to give mystery a more serious try because he goes in to lines and openers and what to actually SAY and how to actually APPROACH women. I feel a lot of my lack of self-confidence comes from not actually knowing what i'm supposed to do in the first place.
CuartaVez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 02:22 AM   #30 (permalink)
 
shynesshellasucks's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,409



Default

Dug these up from another forum.
here are pictures of known PUA gurus' HB 10s.

Here's Tyler's 10 that he picked up in project hollywood:


Tyler's current gf (has a kid with her). Left photo is a good shot, face wise, she is average to below average:



possible close up:


RSD Jeffy's gfs:





Mystery's ex-gf who he claimed was a 10 in the book "the game":
http://www.youtube.com/v/<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X-ts8wB_I8w&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X-ts8wB_I8w&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Mystery's other gf pretty decent looking:


Neil Strauss' current gf (pretty much the only hot one, other than mystery's other gfs, that I've seen from the gurus):




These are only a few pictures of the girls PUA gurus pick up. From what I can see from these pictures and other photos not posted up here, I'm convinced that most if not all of the pua community is fraudulent. Actually the most successful PUA gurus are not gods or expert seducers; they actually have fairly average game and their hotter gfs are product from fame or the girl's attention ***** like syndrome. Neil and Mystery are actually the only ones that from what I've seen have decent looking gfs; their best girls are not even 10s or 9s. I also wonder why David D never shows up with hot girls.

This is my observation. You be the judge.
shynesshellasucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 05:35 AM   #31 (permalink)
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cage #1747
Gender: Male
Age: 27
Posts: 7,400



Default

I've only seen very few vids of David Deangelo on Youtube. Didn't like what I saw. (But I only saw a few vids only.)

I personally like David Wygant's stuff ("Hmm let's think of a general place where we might meet women .... WholeFoods!" lol) and the general attitude of Ross Jeffries. I find the mindset Jeffries recommends really good for SA in general where social interactions are seen as a learning opportunity. But I find his NLP stuff/related ideas weird/creepy (but none the less interesting).

Quote:
Originally Posted by shynesshellasucks View Post
IDK what to think about the pua community any more. I used to read a whole lot about pua. Some of their stuff helped, but some of it made me weird and delusional. Some people claim it does work. But PUA gurus like Tyler Durden, Style, Jlaix and Mystery have bragged a lot about their girlfriends. I have seen pictures of their girlfriends and they are in no shape or form 10s, on the contrary to what they have always claimed. Some of their girlfriends are actually ugly or average looking (I'm not trying to be judgmental here).

I think these gurus overly brag or lie about their success with women in order to take money away from us, desperate, shy, socially awkward, guys. I actually heard girls get creeped out when some pua lines are used on them.

I'm still considering going out and trying this stuff anyway, since I can't be worse off than I am right now. Going out is scary, but it can help overcome SA.


What I do appreciate about the early PUA proponents and PUAs at a grass roots level is the fact that they had a problem and instead of sitting around on their asses and *****ing about it they went out and at the very least attempted to figure out ways to solve their problems.

-------

I also appreciate that they offer a rough guide on attracting women. Personally the whole women thing feels like driving in the blind. The traditional dating advice is pretty useless for a person like me - it's just plain unhelpful (eg "Just be yourself") or it's too vague. I need a more detailed breakdown of what women find attractive and how to go about acquiring those attitudes/skills. And PUA stuff offers that. I realize that this stuff isn't universally applicable or accurate but that doesn't matter. I'm quite capable of adjusting and calibrating or even coming up with my own solutions once I have the basic tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WintersTale View Post
But if you're anxious and 'choke' normally, how are a bunch of jokes and dating tricks going to help you in the long run. Wouldn't it be better to go to the source (deep rooted anxiety issues), instead of putting on a false face?
Most of this PUA stuff assumes you only have anxiety in approaching/dealing with women though so yeah. But it does help me to kinda have a rough idea of what lies ahead once I cross the river that is SA. Also some of the ideas they propose are more in the field of conversational techniques and so are applicable to a many other scenarios other than just women.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickthegreat View Post
I like to take information from pretty much everywhere. I think they all have some valid points, so I would recommend him. I think his stuff is decent. Even if you don't practice it, it kinda opens your eyes and let's you look at things differently. I mean I used to be very uptight, and I got books (just regular books on SA, shyness etc on Amazon), found his stuff free (ya know...samples...torrents ) and also other PUA stuff. I think as long as you take everything with a grain of salt and take what you like, or adapt it somehow to fit your style, it can be helpful. I imagine that following his every exact instruction would also work, but I think some of his examples are extreme.
I agree.
__________________
| SucceedSocially.com |
mind_games is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 07:26 AM   #32 (permalink)
 
fingertips's Avatar
 
Status: freedom hater
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: demilitarised friend zone
Age: 24
Posts: 1,599



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shynesshellasucks View Post
Dug these up from another forum.
here are pictures of known PUA gurus' HB 10s.
please explain how this creepy rating system works. what are the criteria?
__________________

--
MrSoloDolo123
: I'm gonna get the next reply tattooed on my face
soshy: HHANS MOLEMANS
fingertips is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2010, 02:23 PM   #33 (permalink)
 
Status: creeper status
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Gender: Male
Age: 28
Posts: 6,783



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shynesshellasucks View Post
Dug these up from another forum.
here are pictures of known PUA gurus' HB 10s.

Here's Tyler's 10 that he picked up in project hollywood:


Tyler's current gf (has a kid with her). Left photo is a good shot, face wise, she is average to below average:



possible close up:


RSD Jeffy's gfs:





Mystery's ex-gf who he claimed was a 10 in the book "the game":
http://www.youtube.com/v/<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/X-ts8wB_I8w&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/X-ts8wB_I8w&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Mystery's other gf pretty decent looking:


Neil Strauss' current gf (pretty much the only hot one, other than mystery's other gfs, that I've seen from the gurus):




These are only a few pictures of the girls PUA gurus pick up. From what I can see from these pictures and other photos not posted up here, I'm convinced that most if not all of the pua community is fraudulent. Actually the most successful PUA gurus are not gods or expert seducers; they actually have fairly average game and their hotter gfs are product from fame or the girl's attention ***** like syndrome. Neil and Mystery are actually the only ones that from what I've seen have decent looking gfs; their best girls are not even 10s or 9s. I also wonder why David D never shows up with hot girls.

This is my observation. You be the judge.
First off, "10's" are people. Secondly, these guys don't look ugly or anything so I see no reason why they can't meet these women. And yes, I've read "The Game", listen to David D. and checked out Mystery's stuff...

You know what the above is called? Persistence and perseverance for certain things.
bwidger85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2010, 02:37 AM   #34 (permalink)
 
shynesshellasucks's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,409



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwidger85 View Post
First off, "10's" are people. Secondly, these guys don't look ugly or anything so I see no reason why they can't meet these women. And yes, I've read "The Game", listen to David D. and checked out Mystery's stuff...

You know what the above is called? Persistence and perseverance for certain things.
The second sentence I wrote was sarcastic. I wasn't trying to rate girls intentionally. The main point I was actually trying to make is that these guys are just normal people and not expert seducers that date supermodels. You and I have both pretty much wasted our time reading a book, The Game, that is just pure fiction. These guys have taken advantage of desperate guys for money in return. People are still getting scammed to this day.
shynesshellasucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2010, 09:35 AM   #35 (permalink)
 
CopadoMexicano's Avatar
 
Status: True Fighter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United States Of America
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,647



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shynesshellasucks View Post
These guys have taken advantage of desperate guys for money in return. People are still getting scammed to this day.
You could be right. A lot of the material in the pua in general is for desperate guys and Im one of them.
__________________
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence and than success is sure," Mark Twain

-------------------------------------------------------
CopadoMexicano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2010, 12:52 PM   #36 (permalink)
 
shynesshellasucks's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,409



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelWesten View Post
You realize that many of these guys have dated so-called supermodels before? Just because they aren't dating them every single day of their lives doesn't mean that they can't.

You're doing sort of the opposite and putting extremely attractive women on a higher tier. They're no different than any other woman except they happen to be more physically attractive. You're talking about them like they're some higher being.
From the pictures I've seen from most of them, these guys don't date supermodels. Tyler Durden, who was in The Game, has a kid with one of the girls posted. Jeffy, or Jlaix, was also in the game and has always been spotted with average girls. The whole point was not putting girls in the pedestal but just showing people that PUAs are liars and frauds. Neil Strauss is also one big liar/scammer for writing that BS book. Mystery has also lied about his previous gfs.
shynesshellasucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2010, 01:31 PM   #37 (permalink)
 
Status: creeper status
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Gender: Male
Age: 28
Posts: 6,783



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shynesshellasucks View Post
The second sentence I wrote was sarcastic. I wasn't trying to rate girls intentionally. The main point I was actually trying to make is that these guys are just normal people and not expert seducers that date supermodels. You and I have both pretty much wasted our time reading a book, The Game, that is just pure fiction. These guys have taken advantage of desperate guys for money in return. People are still getting scammed to this day.
Hell, for all we know, these are set-up pictures, but it isn't odd to see couples like that. They aren't bad looking. And yes, it is a money-making machine these PUA books and audio cds. All you really need is perseverance and confidence.
bwidger85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 12:46 AM   #38 (permalink)
 
freshjive's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 400



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WintersTale View Post
But if you're anxious and 'choke' normally, how are a bunch of jokes and dating tricks going to help you in the long run. Wouldn't it be better to go to the source (deep rooted anxiety issues), instead of putting on a false face?
I used to be extremely skeptical of the PUA thing and thought exactly what you thought. Sure scripted lines will get you in in the begining but what about 3 months down the line when you've run out of material. What I learned is that those scripted lines are more like training wheels till you become more comfortable with yourself.

I actually got into PUA through a self help web site and I kept hearing more and more good advice till eventually I've reached the point where Im basically reading everything I can.

The bottomline is that the PUA community teaches men to be more social. The scripted lines is what the community is known for but a lot of the stuff that they teach are social skills; story telling, humor, learning to talk to people, learning to deal with rejection, building self confidence, recognizing the good qualities you do have...etc.

Approaching a person you dont know, let alone a person of the opposite sex, is a terrifying experience for anybody and the PUA community teaches you how to get over that. Many of the exersizes that they encourage you to do include walking up to random people(man or woman) and starting a conversation with them.

I think 80-85% of people who join the PUA community have social anxiety. Most of them have extremely poor social skills. Just watch the Pick up Artist TV show and you'll see the type of people that join the community.

I think a lot of people judge it as "mysigonistic" and dont even take the time to look to see what they're really about. If you want a better picture of what its about I suggest reading "The Game" by Neil Strauss.
freshjive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 02:24 AM   #39 (permalink)
 
TouchyBoy's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Salsiccia - Italy
Gender: Male
Posts: 116



Default

The books of the PUA can give "some ideas" ... but are also full of crap ... may give a distorted view of women and the reality, they also make people become "strange". Their behavior can not be changed based on a standard written a book, but must be calibrated on the surrounding environment ... the PUA really bring many people to move away from normality and to have thoughts and behavior strange and ridiculous. It is best to always learn from the social environment. Also a lot of people are completely brainwashed with this crap, mounting the head because they think they possess something that makes them special, thinking that they are following a guru who can do extraordinary things ... it is not. All PUA are idiots, but you can write something that can be useful, but always be judged on its own thoughts and experiences, and never, never take the letter thinking that the person who wrote knows much more than you, because it is not absolutely so. At the risk of being repetitive: just take some inspiration to lift your butt and do something, but you remain normal as everyone else. (ALSO LEARN THINGS TO AVOID MEMORY WHY 'SON ALWAYS ****)
TouchyBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2010, 02:44 AM   #40 (permalink)
 
shynesshellasucks's Avatar
 
Status: SAS Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: USA
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,409



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelWesten View Post
Here's the thing. Just because you don't find them to be "10's" doesn't mean that they agree. And just because they might be a 10 physically doesn't mean that they want to start a relationship with them. You obviously have a strong dislike for PUA, especially those leading it.

I'll be honest. I find it pretty sad that you're sitting here trying to discredit them.
I discredit them because I'm 99% sure they are scammers.

I used to be heavily in this PUA thing reading every material; I've watched multiple PUA products, I watched until I later realized that their whole success with women was a question mark; they never showed evidence of their success with women. All of the pictures I've seen of their gfs, except for maybe a couple of Neil's and Mystery's, are all average. I read multiple rip off reports on the internet and such. I also visited their forums which contain, pretty much, dick sucking 24/7; if you ever question their teachings, you would get a banhammer, typical knowing that such things can damage a marketer's business. Rip off stories are also deleted immediately; they pretty much never get addressed. PUA forums are pretty much widely infested with made up stories. I find it puzzling that you actually believe these scammers. The marketing seems to have gotten to you; as it did to me in the past.

This my observation; it seems you are not skeptical enough or really haven't researched anything negative about PUA.
shynesshellasucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mystery, David D, and others rickthegreat Self Help Resources 3 07-22-2009 12:16 AM
David Lynch Mooncalf Entertainment 18 05-18-2009 11:27 AM
David Hawkins sone Spiritual Support 2 02-10-2008 11:45 PM
David Gahan! Jenikyula Entertainment 4 12-09-2007 04:15 PM
Hi I am David EnigmaM The First Step 9 08-13-2007 04:59 AM

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:27 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® ©2000-2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.