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Old 08-22-2006, 11:35 AM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Default Started Phenibut

So I started Phenibut on Friday evening. I took it twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday. Then I took it last on Monday morning. I want to take a break now so my tolerance won't build up.

I started slow on Friday, taking 750mg. I took a total of 1.5g on Saturday. I didn't notice a whole lot on Saturday, so I increased the dose to 1125mg on Sunday morning. I definitely felt better on Sunday. Then Sunday night I took 1.5g. I also took 1.5g on Monday morning. I felt really light headed on Monday, so maybe I took too much.

I hope to wait until at least Friday before I take anymore. Phenibut seems to help a lot though. Anybody else taking Phenibut that wants to share their experiences?
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Old 08-22-2006, 06:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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your taking too much. Tolerance builds insanely quick. You must only take it once every 2 weeks or so to start out. 250mg is good to start out at. If you feel nothing increase to 500mg. IF taken properly it will completly eliminate anxiety for up to 6 hours. If taken wrong it will make you feel drunk and dizzy. Not in a good way.
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Old 08-23-2006, 07:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Panic Prone,

Thanks for the advice. Do you take Phenibut once every two weeks? Are you taking anything else?
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Old 08-23-2006, 07:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
 
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I hate to sound like counselor Mackey from South Park, but be careful with unregulated drugs, mmkay?
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:02 AM   #5 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for your concern. I will try to attach some of the research I have found, so you can tell me what you think about it.
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:36 AM   #6 (permalink)
 
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I can't post a link to the article, but "Pharmaceutical Chemistry Journal" published an article titled "Fenibut, a New Tranquilizer" in 1976. (Note: "Fenibut" is sometimes used instead of "Phenibut")

According to the article,

"Fenibut is a compound with low toxicity. Its LD(50) on intraperitoneal injection was 1000-1200mg/kg in mice and 900-1000mg/kg in rats.

On extended administration to laboratory animals fenibut caused no changes in the composition of blood and urine and did not impair the functions of the liver (sugar, bilirubin, and transaminase content) and of the kidneys (residual nitrogen level). It was established that there were no changes in the morphological state of internal organs, thyroid and adrenals."

The article also suggested a dose of 0.3-0.5g three times daily. That is 0.9-1.5g per day. No serious side effects were noted, although occasionally nausea and weakness were observed. Over 1000 patients were studied.

I don't know how the safety compares to benzos. Perhaps Phenibut is not regulated because of its relative safety? Also, it certainly helps that Phenibut is not addictive.

Any thoughts people?
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:39 AM   #7 (permalink)
 
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"I don't know how the safety compares to benzos. Perhaps Phenibut is not regulated because of its relative safety? Also, it certainly helps that Phenibut is not addictive. "

You are correct that it is MUCH safer than using conventional benzo meds. However, phenibut can have a BAD withdrawal phase if you take too much and/or use it for long periods of time.

It is recommended to only use it up to 3-4 times a week if possible, spread out.
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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pjmc,

Do you use Phenibut? Can you tell us more about your experience with it? Thank you.
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Old 08-24-2006, 01:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for digging up some reading material! Even if I can't access it I have some ideas now, and I have the LD information from your citation. So, that's good.

I'll do more looking if I get some time.
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Old 08-24-2006, 07:34 AM   #10 (permalink)
 
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I haven't been able to find any other accessible research. For some reason I got the whole article for free before, I'll keep looking.
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Old 08-24-2006, 07:43 AM   #11 (permalink)
 
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Hope this info helps people.. found it on bulknutrition.com, which is where i get my phenibut from.

On a personal note, I have been using phenibut on and off since March/April and have seen great calming effects from it. It helps the stress of work bounce right off me.. and really helps with anxiety, especially talking with coworkers.

Here's the info I found:


"Effects of phenibut

Anxiety reduction. Phenibut is effective in many animal models of anxiety, although there is often dependence on study conditions. In cats classified as "anxious" or "passive," phenibut reduced the fear response and increased aggression in a confrontational situation, while it had no effect on aggressive cats. In normal cats, it lead to "positive emotional symptoms" [2]. In mice, phenibut increased social behavior [9]. In rats, phenibut decreased some of the physiological responses to stress, including the elevation of glucocorticoid levels [10]. Phenibut has also been reported to decrease the fear response caused by electrical stimulation and counteract the anxiogenic effect of the beta-carboline DMCM [2, 11]. Studies in rats examined the behavioral properties of phenibut when it was administered locally into different parts of the brain, and it usually lead to a reduction of anxiety in one or more models [12-16].

The results of animal models don't always pan out in the real world, however, phenibut has a mechanism of action similar to that of many drugs which are known to reduce anxiety in humans. Animal studies have compared the profile of phenibut to diazepam (Valium), which has pronounced anxiolytic properties, and piracetam, which has weak anxiolytic properties. One study found phenibut had a tranquilizing effect similar to, but weaker than diazepam. It also caused sedation and muscle relaxation (whereas piracetam did not), but again these effects were weaker than those caused by diazepam [2].

In Russia, phenibut is commonly used to treat many neuroses, including post-traumic stress disorder, stuttering, and insomnia. In double blind placebo-controlled studies, phenibut has reportedly been found to improve intellectual function, improve physical strength, and reduce fatigue in neurotic and psychotic patients [2].

Nootropic effects. Although phenibut does not meet all the requirements of a nootropic, it does have many similarities to piracetam. In mice, phenibut causes significant improvement on the passive avoidance test [2]. In this test of memory, animals are put in an undesirable area (such as a lighting situation or height from the floor that that species dislikes), and then given a negative stimulus (such as a shock) when they exit that area. Their ability to stay in the original area reflects how well they remember that if they exit it, they will receive the undesirable stimulus. Phenibut also improves performance on the swimming and rotarod tests and antagonizes the amnestic effect of chloramphenicol [2]. It also has an antihypoxic effect, a trait commonly seen among nootropics [17]. However, in one study, phenibut was ineffective in the water maze and shuttle box tests, while piracetam was [18]. Other research supports the idea that phenibut has nootropic activity similar to that of piracetam, but not as strong [19]. Nootropic activity has also been reported in humans [2], but it was not specified whether these were healthy adult humans, and they were probably elderly or psychiatric patients.

Another trait phenibut shares with nootropics is neuroprotection. Multiple animal studies have indicated that phenibut administration increases resistance to the detrimental effects of edema on mitochondria and energy production in the brain [20-22]. Phenibut also normalizes brain energy metabolism changes caused by chronic stress [23]. It was found to prevent changes in plasma electrolytes caused by cerebral injury [24]. Phenibut also protects dopaminergic neurons, and improved the condition of patients being treated with antiparkinsonic drugs [25].

Other effects. Phenibut has anticonvulsant activity against some drugs or conditions, but not others. It also potentiates the action of some other anticonvulsant drugs, and has been used to treat patients with epilepsy [2]. Phenibut has been reported to reduce motion sickness, and used in the treatment of alcohol and morphine withdrawal [2, 26]. One study indicated that phenibut increased resistance to heat stress and improved working capacity in humans [27].

Some studies indicate that phenibut has anti-arrhythmic properties in humans [28-29]. It also has other cardioprotective properties [30-31]. Finally, phenibut showed promise in experimental models of gastric lesions [32-33].

Side effects and suggested use

Phenibut has low acute toxicity. Reported LD50s (dose required to kill 50% of laboratory animals) are 900 mg/kg i.p. in mice, 700 mg/kg i.p. in rats, and 1000 mg/kg in rats (method of administration not given) [2, 34]. Chronic administration of 50 mg/kg did not have teratogenic effects in rats [34]. In clinical studies, no signs of toxicity have been reported, and side effects are few. Some report drowsiness, but this effect is not nearly as likely or severe as with benzodiazepines [2].

One should be aware of the potential for drug interactions when taking phenibut. In many cases, it will decrease the threshold dose and potentiate certain actions of a drug. It amplifies some of the effects of anesthetics (ether, chloral hydrate, and barbiturates), diazepam, alcohol, and morphine [2, 35-36]; it would also presumably have an interaction with related drugs, such as other opiates and GHB. In contrast, taking phenibut with some other drugs, such as stimulants, will more than likely just blunt their effect.

In humans, the plasma half-life after a 250 mg oral dose of phenibut is 5.3 hours, and most of the administered drug is excreted unchanged [2]. Reported dosages used in clinical studies range from 250 to 1500 mg daily, usually divided among three doses [2, 37]. Feedback indicates that the ideal dose may be in the higher end of this range.

Tolerance develops to many of the effects of phenibut, although it is reported that it does not develop to the nootropic effect. The first signs of tolerance may be seen within as little as five days. For this reason, it is commonly used for one to two week periods, or dosage is increased by 25-30% after two weeks [2]. This makes phenibut ideal for short periods of stress or anxiety, but not ideal for chronic use. It is possible that taking only one dose daily may partially reduce the development of tolerance."
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:08 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for the info. That is one of the studies that I am trying to get the full text for. How much and how often do you take Phenibut?
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Old 08-24-2006, 10:04 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panic Prone
your taking too much. Tolerance builds insanely quick. You must only take it once every 2 weeks or so to start out. 250mg is good to start out at. If you feel nothing increase to 500mg. IF taken properly it will completly eliminate anxiety for up to 6 hours. If taken wrong it will make you feel drunk and dizzy. Not in a good way.
I just don't see the value in something you can only take once a week.
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:07 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjmc
"I don't know how the safety compares to benzos. Perhaps Phenibut is not regulated because of its relative safety? Also, it certainly helps that Phenibut is not addictive. "

You are correct that it is MUCH safer than using conventional benzo meds. However, phenibut can have a BAD withdrawal phase if you take too much and/or use it for long periods of time.
Has this been studied in clinical trials?

My problem here is, I'm not finding many studies inolving humans and anxiety. The article by bulk nutrition (http://www.bulknutrition.com/i64_Phenibut.html ) repeatedly references one study regarding human consumption, phenibut, anxiolysis, and tolerance. (It uses it for all those things.) Looking up that study, I found that it dealt with rabbit responses to light, or something. No full text so I couldn't say if there was more to it or not. Hmmm.
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Old 08-24-2006, 03:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panic Prone
your taking too much. Tolerance builds insanely quick. You must only take it once every 2 weeks or so to start out. 250mg is good to start out at. If you feel nothing increase to 500mg. IF taken properly it will completly eliminate anxiety for up to 6 hours. If taken wrong it will make you feel drunk and dizzy. Not in a good way.
I just don't see the value in something you can only take once a week.
I agree, has anyone tried taking it everyday? Does it stop working entirely?
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Old 08-24-2006, 03:25 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caedmon
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjmc
"I don't know how the safety compares to benzos. Perhaps Phenibut is not regulated because of its relative safety? Also, it certainly helps that Phenibut is not addictive. "

You are correct that it is MUCH safer than using conventional benzo meds. However, phenibut can have a BAD withdrawal phase if you take too much and/or use it for long periods of time.
Has this been studied in clinical trials?

My problem here is, I'm not finding many studies inolving humans and anxiety. The article by bulk nutrition (http://www.bulknutrition.com/i64_Phenibut.html ) repeatedly references one study regarding human consumption, phenibut, anxiolysis, and tolerance. (It uses it for all those things.) Looking up that study, I found that it dealt with rabbit responses to light, or something. No full text so I couldn't say if there was more to it or not. Hmmm.
Don't you wish there was more free access to research? I guess they have to pay the bills, but there is so much good information that could help us!
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Old 08-24-2006, 08:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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First I would like to point out that there are already several existing threads dealing with peoples experience with phenibut. In fact at the time of writing this there are two others on the front page with phenibut in the title. If you do a quick search on this site you will find lots of info on it.

A quick recap of my experience:
I take it 2x per week at doses of .5 to 1g. For me it is the magic bullet drug. It solves my problems with no side effects. Yes, it is annoying that I can only take it a few times per week, but it is the only thing I have ever tried that works like this. At least it does provide the two good days.


When deciding how much and how often you want to take it, please keep in mind that Phenibut is a drug!!. Things like Fish Oil, B vitamens, and choline are true supplements. They are found in the food you eat every day and if you decide to be crazy and take 10x the recomended amount it probably won't be too harmful. But Phenibut is not like that. Look at peoples reactions to it. Almost everybody has a powerful reaction to take it. Some are good experiences some are very bad, but they are normally very strong.

Do lots of research. Figure out what the dangers are. Decide if the risk/reward is right for you. Start small. Treat this like it is a drug you recieved from the doctor because it is just as powerful as many of them.



To Caedmon:
You seem to be very interested in Science. Of course this is a good thing, but you can not let it make you afraid to act. The fact is that the science of brain chemistry is still in its infancy. Not only do they not know if these drugs work they don't really even know how to go about testing to see if they do. And then you have to deal with the problem that everyone is different. If you look through peoples posts describing their problems it will become obvious that we all have a different set of problems.
If you are low in magnesium/calcium/or B vitamens you should take a vitamen.
Maybe your brain uses to much choline.
It could be a psychological problem that can be resolved with behavior therapy.
Or it could be a serotonin problem that paxil would help.
For me the only things that have ever provided any relief have had some GABA connection.

I know that it sounds dangerous, barbaic, and stupid but (at this time) the only real way to get results is to just start swallowing pills and see what works and what doesn't.
Just try to be careful while doing this.
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Old 08-25-2006, 07:32 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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matthew,

Thanks for the information! I have read every post that has Phenibut in it. I just am trying to get some additional information. Thank you!
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:43 AM   #19 (permalink)
 
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Default Re: Started Phenibut

Quote:
Originally Posted by FearNoMore
So I started Phenibut on Friday evening. I took it twice on Saturday and twice on Sunday. Then I took it last on Monday morning. I want to take a break now so my tolerance won't build up.

I started slow on Friday, taking 750mg. I took a total of 1.5g on Saturday. I didn't notice a whole lot on Saturday, so I increased the dose to 1125mg on Sunday morning. I definitely felt better on Sunday. Then Sunday night I took 1.5g. I also took 1.5g on Monday morning. I felt really light headed on Monday, so maybe I took too much.

I hope to wait until at least Friday before I take anymore. Phenibut seems to help a lot though. Anybody else taking Phenibut that wants to share their experiences?
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but here's my experience with Phenibut.

When I take it, it works GREAT-no anxiety, little bit of a drunk/buzzed feeling, but without the loss of motor control, etc. When I take it, I take about 2.25g-that seems to work the best. Any more and there's diminishing returns. I can only take it once a week or so. If I take it before a week has gone by, there's hardly any effects.
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:44 AM   #20 (permalink)
 
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mariners216,

thanks for the information!
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